British Tanks/AFV`s used in CBI theatre ?

[russ c]

Hi Everyone,

I`m fairly new to AFV modelling and have only done 3 so far; an M4 Sherman, a Japanese Type 97 and a LVT-2, so I`m now looking to do a British WW2 type AFV (tank preferably) , that was used in the CBI theatre to go with them.

Looking for any suggestions for a 1/35th kit ?

Cheers Russ

[Panzer Vor!!!]

Not sure what you mean by cbi??? However it sounds like Burma so i would go with Matilda and Grant.

[Andrew Jones]

Yes I'd second that , if you're talking Burma then Matilda [Tamiya] or Grant {Academy] would fit the bill nicely, later in the campaign Shermans appeared.

Andrew

[spitfire]

Presumably this is the China, Burma, India theatre of operations, so yes the Grant (and Lee) and Sherman would be there as well as the M3 light tank, not sure about the Matilda, I know the Australians used them in New Guinea but I don't know about Burma.

Cheers

Dennis

[russ c]

Not sure what you mean by cbi??? However it sounds like Burma so i would go with Matilda and Grant.

Thanks for replying `PV,`

Yeah I did mean China, Burma, India, Campaign, Matilda or Grant then.

Yes I'd second that , if you're talking Burma then Matilda [Tamiya] or Grant {Academy] would fit the bill nicely, later in the campaign Shermans appeared.

Andrew

Cheers Andrew

I`ll go with one of those then.

[russ c]

Presumably this is the China, Burma, India theatre of operations, so yes the Grant (and Lee) and Sherman would be there as well as the M3 light tank, not sure about the Matilda, I know the Australians used them in New Guinea but I don't know about Burma.

Cheers

Dennis

Cheers Dennis,

Had n`t thought of New Guinea, Still fits with my stuff. Nice one !

[Seahawk]

.. the Grant (and Lee) and Sherman would be there...

Important point: the M3A5 was known as the Grant II in British service. However it retained the original US turret and so looked like a Lee. I can't categorically say there were no Grants with the lower British turret out there but my mental image of a Far Eastern Grant is of one with the US-style turret, usually, but not always, with the machine gun cupola replaced with a split hatch. So you'd prob be better off with a Lee kit than a Grant one. If you can find a kit with later bogies with Sherman-style trailing return rollers, go for that.

[Test Graham]

Possibly some of the Vickers light tanks were used in the earlier campaigns?

[russ c]

Important point: the M3A5 was known as the Grant II in British service. However it retained the original US turret and so looked like a Lee. I can't categorically say there were no Grants with the lower British turret out there but my mental image of a Far Eastern Grant is of one with the US-style turret, usually, but not always, with the machine gun cupola replaced with a split hatch. So you'd prob be better off with a Lee kit than a Grant one. If you can find a kit with later bogies with Sherman-style trailing return rollers, go for that.

Thanks for the info` Seahawk I`ll try to keep those points in mind

Possibly some of the Vickers light tanks were used in the earlier campaigns?

Cheers Graham, What`s the best kit for one of those ? I`ll look into it though

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I believe you would need to find a kit of the Mk.VI 'India Pattern' for Burma.

A small number of ex-British M3 Honeys (Stuarts) were used by the Japanese in this campaign.....One sneakily knocked out an M3 Lee!

As Seahawk points out, most of the pictures of British/Indian M3 Mediums in Burma appear to be Lees (M3A5s?), with British modifications such as the removal of the commander's MG cupola, addition of a smoke discharger to the turret and modified stowage bins:

Note that both of the M3s in the pictures above have the early style bogies, so a regular M3 kit should be a good starting point if you choose to build one.

Most of the pictures of Shermans in Burma that I've seen in appear to show M4A2 Sherman IIIs or M4A4 Sherman Vs.....I couldn't honestly claim to be an expert in Sherman identification though.

I believe the British also used the M7 SPG in this campaign.

The M3A1 Honey (Stuart) too was still used by British/Indian units.....Here's one from the 7th Indian Light Cavalry:

The Australians also used the M3 Honey (Stuart) but only in New Guinea:

More info & pics here: http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3inactionph_1.htm

The Matilda Frog flamethrower-tank that the Australians later used to clear out Japanese strongpoints on New Guinea was a truly terrifying beast.....Especially when your best AT gun was a 47mm!

If you are considering modelling vehicles from the wider campaign in the Far East, an interesting and unusual option would be a Valentine from the New Zealand 3rd Division, which saw action (albeit very briefly) in the Solomons as part of 'Operation Squarepeg'.....These vehicles had very distinctive camo (and the 3" CS tanks were a unique design IIRC):

The closest tank in this image is a Valentine CS with 3" gun.

Plenty more info on these tanks here: http://kiwisinarmour.hobbyvista.com/

If you were building in 1/72 I could make some kit recommendations, but in 1/35 I don't have a clue.....Sorry.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Troy Smith]

Hi Everyone,

I`m fairly new to AFV modelling and have only done 3 so far; an M4 Sherman, a Japanese Type 97 and a LVT-2, so I`m now looking to do a British WW2 type AFV (tank preferably) , that was used in the CBI theatre to go with them.

Looking for any suggestions for a 1/35th kit ?

Cheers Russ

Russ

one thing you may find of use is that there was a British 'jungle green' S.C.C. 13

Humbrol mix from here http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm

S.C.C. 13 (‘Jungle Green’)

Mix: 159 + 155 + 33 in ratio 4:3:1.

In use: A basic colour only. Replaced ME and UK colours in India , Burma and Far East 1943-45.

Description: Very drab/ muddy dark green. Darker than U.S. Olive Drab.

Tamiya mix see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234913729-british-ww2-tank-colors/

SCC 13 mix

I found this by trial and error, mostly error, testing for another colour. Generally refered to as 'jungle green'. This colour was used in India and Burma on British and Commonwealth vehicles from about late 1942 - 1945 so your Chinese & Indian Sherman Vs and M3 Lees can be real dull now, as can many softskins too.

It would have helped.

If I had written the mix too, i got distracted by the smell of toast.

Mix 2 pts XF51 + 1 pt XF61 + 1 pt XF3.

from the work of Mike Starmer

HTH

T

[Seahawk]

Most of the pictures of Shermans in Burma that I've seen in appear to show M4A2 Sherman IIIs or M4A4 Sherman Vs.....

Probably the case as these were the 2 main variants supplied to the UK. Because the Lee/Grant II proved perfectly adequate in Burma, the Sherman only appeared on the scene quite late. I seem to recall a Military Modelling articles on them, from which I took the message that they were mostly Sherman Vs (M4A4).

There was an article on Lees in Burma on pages 46-51 of Military Modelling for 2 November 2001 (with some good archive photos IIRC) and an article on modelling them in 1/35 on pages 36-39 of March 2007 Military In Scale.

Thanks to Sgt Squarehead for finding some pics to back up some of my points. NB both have the long 75mm gun: this is typical for Burma Lees/Grant IIs. Other common modifications (recalled from the MM article) were wire netting across the rear decking to stop Japanese lodging hand grenades there during close quarters fighting, a telephone box on the rear plate for infantry to communicate with the crew (see SS's photo) and often an odd little plate hanging down over the tracks about where the side door is. (If you're working from a photo, as well as the bogies, check whether the side door is present: many late M3A5s had the doors eliminated or welded shut.)

HTH

[russ c]

I believe you would need to find a kit of the Mk.VI 'India Pattern' for Burma.

A small number of ex-British M3 Honeys (Stuarts) were used by the Japanese in this campaign.....One sneakily knocked out an M3 Lee!

As Seahawk points out, most of the pictures of British/Indian M3 Mediums in Burma appear to be Lees (M3A5s?), with British modifications such as the removal of the commander's MG cupola, addition of a smoke discharger to the turret and modified stowage bins:

Note that both of the M3s in the pictures above have the early style bogies, so a regular M3 kit should be a good starting point if you choose to build one.

Most of the pictures of Shermans in Burma that I've seen in appear to show M4A2 Sherman IIIs or M4A4 Sherman Vs.....I couldn't honestly claim to be an expert in Sherman identification though.

I believe the British also used the M7 SPG in this campaign.

The M3A1 Honey (Stuart) too was still used by British/Indian units.....Here's one from the 7th Indian Light Cavalry:

The Australians also used the M3 Honey (Stuart) but only in New Guinea:

More info & pics here: http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3inactionph_1.htm

The Matilda Frog flamethrower-tank that the Australians later used to clear out Japanese strongpoints on New Guinea was a truly terrifying beast.....Especially when your best AT gun was a 47mm!

If you are considering modelling vehicles from the wider campaign in the Far East, an interesting and unusual option would be a Valentine from the New Zealand 3rd Division, which saw action (albeit very briefly) in the Solomons as part of 'Operation Squarepeg'.....These vehicles had very distinctive camo (and the 3" CS tanks were a unique design IIRC):

The closest tank in this image is a Valentine CS with 3" gun.

Plenty more info on these tanks here: http://kiwisinarmour.hobbyvista.com/

If you were building in 1/72 I could make some kit recommendations, but in 1/35 I don't have a clue.....Sorry.

Thanks very much for all that info !!

Russ

one thing you may find of use is that there was a British 'jungle green' S.C.C. 13

Humbrol mix from here http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm

Tamiya mix see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234913729-british-ww2-tank-colors/

from the work of Mike Starmer

HTH

T

Thanks Troy, I didn`t know that !

Probably the case as these were the 2 main variants supplied to the UK. Because the Lee/Grant II proved perfectly adequate in Burma, the Sherman only appeared on the scene quite late. I seem to recall a Military Modelling articles on them, from which I took the message that they were mostly Sherman Vs (M4A4).

There was an article on Lees in Burma on pages 46-51 of Military Modelling for 2 November 2001 (with some good archive photos IIRC) and an article on modelling them in 1/35 on pages 36-39 of March 2007 Military In Scale.

Thanks to Sgt Squarehead for finding some pics to back up some of my points. NB both have the long 75mm gun: this is typical for Burma Lees/Grant IIs. Other common modifications (recalled from the MM article) were wire netting across the rear decking to stop Japanese lodging hand grenades there during close quarters fighting, a telephone box on the rear plate for infantry to communicate with the crew (see SS's photo) and often an odd little plate hanging down over the tracks about where the side door is. (If you're working from a photo, as well as the bogies, check whether the side door is present: many late M3A5s had the doors eliminated or welded shut.)

HTH

Thanks again Seahawk.

[Malcolm Shaw]

I do believe this is a M3 Grant in Burma.

Malc.

[Test Graham]

I believe that there is a book out on British Shermans in India, (i don't have it) which would perhaps imply a Bison decal sheet to go with it, but I couldn't find that.

[Seahawk]

I do believe this is a M3 Grant in Burma.

Malc.

Certainly looks like it: good find!

[russ c]

I do believe this is a M3 Grant in Burma.

Malc.

Thanks Malcom, Good pic`

Thanks again Graham and Seahawk

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Great find.....Cheers!

I think that's the first clear picture I've seen of a Burma Grant. I've got one picure of what may be a Grant below Imphal, but it's a small image and the tank is some distance away and rear on.

I reckon that image would make a fantastic project for Russ, it's about as British as you get (in India) and would make a splendid diorama.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[KRK4m]

Here is another photo of the Burmah Grants https://www.facebook.com/TheFriendsofTheTankMuseum/photos/a.1585375855015759/2548363908716944/?locale=zh_CN

These are vehicles from 254 Tank Brigade - note that unlike the British Lees in this theatre, all of these Grants have the old short barreled 75mm gun.

Unfortunately, the WDN numbers are not visible. But years ago Almark Decals had the set TS2 "Lee/Grant in 5 theatres of WW2" where there were WDN numbers for the 4 Grants from Burma: T-24864, T-24873, T-25882 and T-25883. Is anyone able to assign these tanks to the correct units?

BTW. an odd little plate hanging down over the tracks under the side door (mentioned by @Seahawk) is a protection against track injury - only some tanks have them, always with side skirts removed. And the SCC13 Jungle Green colour mentioned by @Troy Smith made according to the recipe of @Mike Starmer from Humbrols 159/155/33 in the 4/3/1 ratio turned out to be a... clean Humbrol 242 straight from the can.

Cheers

Michael

[Kingsman]

On 4/1/2013 at 4:44 PM, Seahawk said:

Important point: the M3A5 was known as the Grant II in British service. However it retained the original US turret and so looked like a Lee. I can't categorically say there were no Grants with the lower British turret out there but my mental image of a Far Eastern Grant is of one with the US-style turret, usually, but not always, with the machine gun cupola replaced with a split hatch. So you'd prob be better off with a Lee kit than a Grant one. If you can find a kit with later bogies with Sherman-style trailing return rollers, go for that.

 

I'm sorry but that is very old and wrong information debunked many years ago.  I suspect you've been looking at the very old Chamberlain and Ellis book, or a source based on it.

 

No Lee variant was ever called a Grant.  And No Grant was ever called an M3.  Grants existed outside the US Ordnance system and were given neither US designation nor US serials.  Nor were they processed for shipping by US Tank Depots.  But they were clearly part of the M3 family along with the M7 HMC and Ram.

 

Grant I was powered by the radial petrol engine as per M3, M3A1 and M3A2 Lees.  All except 10 were riveted.  Those 10 were welded like the M3A2.  1 each are known to have gone to Australia and N Africa but the other 8 are unknown.

 

Grant II was powered by the GM6046 twin diesel engine used in the welded M3A3 and riveted M3A5.  But was otherwise fully a Grant.  This is where the confusion comes from.  Baldwin were ordered by US Ordnance to switch to diesel M3 variants before Grant production was finished (they were the only people who built both Lee and Grant).  As they were then no longer able to produce petrol Grants the UK was forced to accept the last 364 Grants with diesel propulsion.  Of these, 83 used welded hulls like the M3A3 and 381 used riveted hulls like the M3A5.  The UK did not differentiate between welded and riveted hull construction as the difference was effectively meaningless.  We only differentiated engine types.

 

No diesel Lees or Grants ever served with Commonwealth forces in the Far East: all were petrol.  517 Lee I and 379 Grant I were supplied directly to India for use in the Far East.  Indian armoured regiments used them too: not sure about Chinese Nationalist.  The Lees were a mixture of build standards including late production with no side doors and the longer M3 75mm gun.  It is not believed that there were any welded hulls among them. 

 

The UK only received 49 diesel M3s, all welded M3A3s and all sent to the UK: never used operationally.  The diesel M3s were a version without a real purpose: no-one really wanted them.  By the time they were ready the diesel Sherman was available so Russia didn't want any - and they had a very bad experience with the petrol M3.  100 were supplied to Brazil and about half the rest (150) ended up converted into M31B1 and M31B2 ARVs.

 

The Miniart "Sahara" M3 kit actually includes a split hatch option as well as the MG cupola and is a suitable basis for a Burma etc Lee.  Cheaper than buying a Resicast cupola hatch separately.

 

No Grant Is had the long M3 gun and none had the muzzle counterweight on the M2 gun: a common modelling error.  The original Grant specification did not include the gyrostabiliser.  However, with the closer integration with US production for the Grant II the gyrostabiliser was introduced.  So Grant IIs did have the muzzle counterweight.

 

No Grants or Lees were factory fitted with the trailing-roller bogies.  They were introduced by Chrysler for the heavier and never-deployed M3A4 but came along too late for mainstream production.  Even early Shermans still used the M3 top roller bogies before the Chrysler design became universal.  Lee hulls refurbished in the US for the Canal Defence Light / Shop Tractor projects did receive the later bogies.  Some UK CDL conversions may have had them swapped too.  Although, strangely, the M31 conversions retained the M3 bogies, and struggled..........  Post-WW2 Australia refitted the Grant IIs it kept in reserve with the trailing-roller bogies.  Some Australian documents confusingly refer to a non-existent Grant III, believed to be an attempt to differentiate welded and riveted Grant IIs.

 

Every Grant from all 3 factories left the factory with the British-specific WE210 "Double I" track.  Lees would have been factory-shod with T41 plain rubber block tracks.  However, other types are seen in service as replacements.  Some later Grants did have the Chrysler-pattern pressed spoke wheels, but a very small minority.

 

Something else to look out for on both Lees and Grants is the change at the rear from "pepperpot" exhausts to low or later high central "fishtail" exhausts with external Vortox air cleaners.  Just like a Sherman.  Late production petrol Grants and Lees has this setup but to my knowledge no current kit in 1/35 depicts it.

 

Commonwealth forces used the M3 Light Tank in Burma and India.  Mostly M3 and M3A1 with a few M3A3.  There would have been some Indian Pattern Light Tanks in India before WW2 but that would have been about it.  Policing India didn't require anything heavier and British and Indian forces were primarliy concerned with internal security, not external invasion.  Burma, Malaya and Singapore were not considered to be tank terrain, so there were no tanks: only armoured cars.  Then the Japanese proved that idea to be wrong.......

 

The Shermans deployed later were M4A4s.

 

Matildas and Valentines were not used by UK forces in the Far East, but were used extensively by Australian and NZ forces further South in New Guinea etc.  Australia had many Lees (255) and Grants (286 Is and 236 IIs) but none were deployed outside Australia.  Australia tested the Sherman and Churchill but did not take any.  The Australian Cruiser Sentinel was never deployed.

[KRK4m]

Well, @Kingsman, did you clean up well 😉.

Only you could have done it 10 years ago - look at the dates of the posts you referenced.

In the meantime, I found out that T-25882 and T-25883 were probably Shermans. So I have 2 conflicting infos - the question is which is true?

A photo of the Grant model from Burma with WDN T-23650 is circulating on the web. It was more than likely Grant's number, but the model isn't evidence. I am adding this WDN to the above (extremely short) list for verification.

Cheers

Michael

[Kingsman]

@KRK4m I did notice, but the mythology of Lees being Grants goes back over 40 years and had been debunked long before 2013.  As the thread has woken up again after snoozing for a decade the mythology has surfaced again, so it is time to suppress it again before anyone new reads and believes it.

 

T-25xxx is way out of range for Shermans.  Even Michael, the first one, is T-74195.  The first delivery of Shermans to N Africa had numbers in the T-74xxx range.  But T-258xx is also out of range for a Grant, where the highest number was T-25589.  About 300 short.  Your 2 serials might have been Lees, or potentially Stuarts.  We had 75 Lees in N Africa and the lowest Stuart number I've seen is in the T-26xxx range.  Even the few M2A4s were in the T-27xxx range.   BTW, I forgot to mention that our few M2A4s were packed off to India from North Africa once M3 Stuarts began to arrive.  Never to be seen again, it seems.

 

I found Lee T-25954 in Australia.  Tanks supplied to Australia received T numbers but the Australians quickly re-numbered them in their own 4-digit sequence.  I found Lee T-25602 in Burma, which very much suggests that Lees followed-on from the Grant numbers as that is only 13 above the last Grant number.  We have Lees in the T-256xx and 259xx ranges, bookending your T-258xx.

 

So I'm thinking that your 2 serials most probably belong to M3 Lees, possibly in N Africa but statistically more likely in Australia or potentially in the Far East. 

[KRK4m]

@Kingsman From what you can see here http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html, the British order for 2,185 Grants received the WDN block from T-23504 to T-25688 (first 685 is Baldwin, then 500 Pullmann, 500 PSC and the last 500 Lima). But - as we know - Lima did not start the production of Grant at all, and in the block of 500 WDN granted to it, there was 1 additional Grant from PSC (T-25589) and the first 28 M4A1s - purchased in the pre-Lend-Lease era (T-25189/25216). According to the same source, WDN T-25705/26076 also belonged to Lima-built M4A1s, but these were perhaps Lend-Lease tanks, as they have US registration numbers 3058972/3067901 too. From your statement, it appears that in this WDN block M3 Lee tanks acquired by the British through Lend-Lease are known. In that case, when the way of acquisition was changed, this block of WDN 25705/26076 was released and the Shermans covered by it received completely new WDN? Either way, it's a shame that a serious decal manufacturer (and I considered Almark to be one) spreads such fiction.

But back to the main topic of this thread started by @russ c 10 years ago, when you scroll down about 75-80% of the text on this website http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m3grant/m3grant.html, you will find several interesting photos of Grants (not Lees) from India and Burma. Interestingly, there is also information about the replacement of Valentine tanks in 146 RAC, which failed in the Arakan campaign in the winter of 1942/43 (due to the summer monsoons, all operations were carried out there only in winter). So Valentine vs Japanese is not only New Zealanders but also British in Burma.

Cheers

Michael

[Kingsman]

Yes the long-standing controversy over the recyling of Lima Grant census numbers for Shermans.  The first 28 Lima Shermans were still classed as British Contract but then Lend-Lease took over.  As Minutia shows, the British orders initially allocated T-25189 - T-25588 to the 400 Shermans to be supplied in lieu of 400 Grants. 

 

However, it is my belief and understanding that only the first 28 of those numbers were actually allocated, to the only tanks the UK actually paid for: T-25189 - T25216.  But if Minutia is to be believed then only 5 of these were actually used: 25189-25194.  Once Lend-Lease took over, T numbers were no longer allocated in the USA but were instead allocated in the UK.  Michael can be seen in factory photos to carry serial T-25190.  But by June 42 when Michael is seen in the UK that number had changed to T-74195.  Minutia points out further down the Lima M4A1 page that the first batch of serials allocated to the first 400 Shermans was T-74195 - T-74593, so when the early vehicles arrived in the UK they were re-numbered.  Photos of the first delivery of M4A1s and M4A2s to North Africa clearly show T-74xxx numbers.

 

The Lees provided - not part of the original plan but necessary to make up for the Grant shortfall while waiting for Shermans - seem to have taken the numbers allocated to the Lima Grants except possibly for the 28 given to the first Shermans: T-25217 - T-26076.  I recall reading that the reason for the T-74xxx allocation was the realisation that the original sequence had actually been used - but now of course I can't find it, so don't take that as gospel.  If these numbers were in fact used on Lees then Lima would not have known about it as those would have been Chrysler tanks, and so would have carried on using the numbers they had been given.  Poor communication by the Purchasing Commission?  Fisher would not have received an early allocation for M4A2s as they were not involved in the Grant programme.

 

So I still think that we circle back to your 2 numbers being originally allocated to Grants, theoretically allocated to Shermans but actually allocated to Lees.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Kingsman
correction

[KRK4m]

Thanks @Kingsman - you put it logically and it's roughly what I imagined. Maybe I could even write the same if English were my native language...

But I'd still like to know your opinion on these Valentines. In 1943 146 RAC received the first Valentine IIIs - somewhere on the web I even saw such a model with WDN T-134217 and a photo with WDN T-66792 (named Caesar).

However at the same time, it is said that 146 RAC got them in place of a few (probably 3 or 4) earlier Valentines (I or II, with a small turret anyway) lost during the failed Arakan campaign in the winter of 1942/43. Have you ever come across a photo/profile/WDN of these "original" Burma Valentines? There is no "big turret" 1:72 Valentine kit on the market, so I'm looking for the oldest ones

Cheers

Michael

 

LAST MINUTE: Bingo! I have a small-turret Valentine from 146 RAC in 1942. Just someone tell me if the T-162450 is Mk.II or Mk.VI, because the first Canadian ones also had a riveted forward hull.

Edited September 3, 2023 by KRK4m
PS added