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Interesting Dogfights


Atom.uk

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I have several projects on the go (completion rate very low - in single figures each year). I like to model particular aircraft from specific operations or incidents. These are some of the more interesting aerial engagements that I have discovered from WW2.

This event involved a US Navy PB4Y-1 of VB-105, in 1943. It engaged a Luftwaffe Bv222 and was shot down with the loss of the crew. Photos taken from the Bv222 of the combat have been published.

6932742251_96c40a2561.jpg
interesting dogfights 010 by ATom.UK, on Flickr

This incident also involves a Bv222 and a maritime patrol aircraft - in this case an RAF coastal command Halifax. This combat was inconclusive, although the Halifax suffered damage.

6932883687_eceb846c17.jpg
interesting dogfights 015 by ATom.UK, on Flickr

This is a combat between 2 Fw200s that intercepted a Halifax / Horsa combination over the Bay of Biscay in 1943. The Halifax and horsa were both forced down into the sea.

8493734345_617d3619f8.jpg
Interesting dogfights: 1/72 Focke Wulf Fw200C-4 F8+AR KG40 and Handley Page Halifax Mk.V DK130 / EE of 295 Squadron, June 14th 1943. Fw 200: Revell (original kit!) with interior detail and undercarriage modified to improve the sit of the model. Halifax: by ATom.UK, on Flickr

This is a closer view of the Fw200 - the most complete of all these models. It is the old Revell kit, with scratch-bult internal details and some modification to the undercarriage. i have always liked this kit and this a/c. I have a couple of the new Revell kits and look forward to the trumpeter C-3.

8493600903_e5403ef21e.jpg
Interesting dogfights: 1/72 Focke Wulf Fw200C-4 F8+AR KG40 June 14th 1943. Revell (original kit!) with interior detail and undercarriage modified to improve the sit of the model. by ATom.UK, on Flickr

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Nice concept.

I can think of one or two others, though have no idea of the dates/aircraft involved:

RAF Anson shooting down a Dornier Do 18;

Another Anson which shot down two attacking Me109s and damaged a third;

The RN Avenger whose gunner shot down a V1 as it passed by them.

And for a more conventional fighter-fighter dogfight, albeit from Vietnam, the famed engagement between Cunningham/Driscoll's F-4B and 'Colonel Toom' in his MiG-17.

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I was always fascinated by the Lysander pilot who shot down 2 Me109s. Sadly, the factoid remained lodged in my memory banks without the name of the pilot. IIRC it was a 16 Sqn machine that had been modified in some form...but I could be entirely wrong.

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Pilot Oficer Dexter was the fella (I am not clever enough to know that, Google was my friend).

I was always fascinated by the Lysander pilot who shot down 2 Me109s. Sadly, the factoid remained lodged in my memory banks without the name of the pilot. IIRC it was a 16 Sqn machine that had been modified in some form...but I could be entirely wrong.

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Dexter may not have been the only Lysander pilot to shoot down Me109s. I seem to recall an obituary about 10 years ago, maybe longer, but again I can't remember the name. Apparently the pilot "upgraded" his Lysander and enhanced the forward firepower. Wish I'd written down the details at the time...GRRR!!!

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Yep, that's the chap. Was flying L4793, KJ-something. It would be great to discover the individual code letter for that machine and build a model to commemorate a brave Lysander crew.

Was that the XIII Sqn Lyasander?

On one occasion however a Lysander was attacked by two Me 109s. One Messerschmitt was shot down in flames and the other was so badly damaged that it was forced to break off the engagement. (History ox XIII Sqn).

Cheers

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No that was a 16 Sqn machine. However, I'd be very, VERY interested if a XIII Sqn bird shot down 2 Me109s - as an ex-'stabbed cat' myself that would be much more interesting than a 'Johnny-come-lately' 16 Sqn airframe!

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My personal favorite is the engagement between the Ki-43-I Hayabusa ("Oscar") of Lt Col Tateo Katô, commander of the 64th Sentai, and the 60 Sqn. Blenheim Mk.IV Z9808 flown by W/O Martin Huggard, over the Bay of Bengal on 22 May 1942: the Blenheim's turret gunner Flt Sgt Jock McLuckie managed to shoot down the legendary Japanese ace. For years I've been trying to find what codes (if any) were carried by the Blenheim, to no avail. Any informed opinion on this, anyone? Thanks.

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Its a bit long but this is a interesting account of a dogfight.

Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14

".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and

we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up!

And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders

us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000

feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost

two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take

a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in

sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance

to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have

to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in

the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.

So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From

one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit.

I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck,

with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was

another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line!

Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no

effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds

each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the

remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine

cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view

mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109

following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109.

So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door

right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I

peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted

Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the

transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but

yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the

same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.

.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm

really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself:

am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot

catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn

he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives

for the two P-51s.

Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because

if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a

front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390

mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very

long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the

Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half

hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no

such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his

fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not

fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-

51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white

smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a

gentle roll to the right.

I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full attention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly

through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really

apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press

the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250

yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to

the horizon. He levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! And next thing I know, he's using

his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an

experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by

pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for

altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving

speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at

eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never

heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both

down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level

out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on

him.........

At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast

and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on

me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe

pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single

20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I

pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see

anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are

burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to

prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less

than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has

a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner are painted black.

It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number

painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his

airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot

see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits!

I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15

degrees, to let me see the underside, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally

impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder.

German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick:

TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take

centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two

hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm

panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail,

obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knifecutting

motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going

to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on.

My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and

so.

This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I

think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what

he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition,

would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of

the situation, and I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs

about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm

dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My

P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left

rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I

began to black out so with my left hand I pinch my veins in my neck to stop blackout). I scan the

sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading

towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save

gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an

hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.

I never saw the Me109 with the red heart again. At the mess I mention the Me109 with the red

heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly

quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:

"....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a red heart is Eric Hartmann who has

downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting

him down. I’ve never before heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "

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I have an Anson project, but not quite the same outcome - on 5th september 1939 a 206 sqn Anson was lost in an engagement with a Luftwaffe He 115, which then landed in the sea to rescue the Anson's pilot. the Do18 was shot down on 8th October, and was the first confirmed RAF claim of the war.

I have details of the Anson vs Me109s, which took place during Operation Dynamo - N9732 MK-V of 500 Sqn, 1st June 1040. Around the same time a 220 Sqn Hudson got mixed up with some Ju87s over Dunkirk, claiming 4!

The RN Avenger is a new one to me, but would make a good project. I have a couple in the attic.....

ref the Cunningham/Driscoll engagement, I have a better one - on the same day (10th May 1972) Curt Dose of VF-92 caught 2 Mig-21s taking off from Kep airfield, and chased them at low level around the circuit, downing 1 with a Sidewinder. I have the F-4 nearly finished - I know it was "Silverkite 211" but i do not have full details or the correct squadron insignia.

Thank you for your interest.

AT

Nice concept.

I can think of one or two others, though have no idea of the dates/aircraft involved:

RAF Anson shooting down a Dornier Do 18;

Another Anson which shot down two attacking Me109s and damaged a third;

The RN Avenger whose gunner shot down a V1 as it passed by them.

And for a more conventional fighter-fighter dogfight, albeit from Vietnam, the famed engagement between Cunningham/Driscoll's F-4B and 'Colonel Toom' in his MiG-17.

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Thank you that is an amazing account.

I was always fascinated by the Lysander pilot who shot down 2 Me109s. Sadly, the factoid remained lodged in my memory banks without the name of the pilot. IIRC it was a 16 Sqn machine that had been modified in some form...but I could be entirely wrong.

Pilot Oficer Dexter was the fella (I am not clever enough to know that, Google was my friend).

Yep, that's the chap. Was flying L4793, KJ-something. It would be great to discover the individual code letter for that machine and build a model to commemorate a brave Lysander crew.

Dexter may not have been the only Lysander pilot to shoot down Me109s. I seem to recall an obituary about 10 years ago, maybe longer, but again I can't remember the name. Apparently the pilot "upgraded" his Lysander and enhanced the forward firepower. Wish I'd written down the details at the time...GRRR!!!

Was that the XIII Sqn Lyasander?

On one occasion however a Lysander was attacked by two Me 109s. One Messerschmitt was shot down in flames and the other was so badly damaged that it was forced to break off the engagement. (History ox XIII Sqn).

Cheers

No that was a 16 Sqn machine. However, I'd be very, VERY interested if a XIII Sqn bird shot down 2 Me109s - as an ex-'stabbed cat' myself that would be much more interesting than a 'Johnny-come-lately' 16 Sqn airframe!

Thank you all, that is a new one to me - on to the list it goes!

Its a bit long but this is a interesting account of a dogfight.

Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14

".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and

we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up!

And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders

us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000

feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost

two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take

a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in

sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance

to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have

to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in

the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.

So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From

one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit.

I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck,

with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was

another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line!

Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no

effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds

each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the

remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine

cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view

mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109

following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109.

So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door

right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I

peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted

Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the

transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but

yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the

same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.

.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm

really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself:

am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot

catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn

he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives

for the two P-51s.

Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because

if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a

front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390

mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very

long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the

Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half

hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no

such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his

fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not

fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-

51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white

smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a

gentle roll to the right.

I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full attention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly

through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really

apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press

the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250

yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to

the horizon. He levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! And next thing I know, he's using

his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an

experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by

pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for

altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving

speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at

eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never

heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both

down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level

out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on

him.........

At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast

and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on

me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe

pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single

20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I

pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see

anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are

burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to

prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less

than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has

a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner are painted black.

It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number

painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his

airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot

see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits!

I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15

degrees, to let me see the underside, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally

impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder.

German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick:

TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take

centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two

hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm

panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail,

obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knifecutting

motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going

to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on.

My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and

so.

This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I

think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what

he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition,

would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of

the situation, and I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs

about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm

dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My

P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left

rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I

began to black out so with my left hand I pinch my veins in my neck to stop blackout). I scan the

sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading

towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save

gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an

hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.

I never saw the Me109 with the red heart again. At the mess I mention the Me109 with the red

heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly

quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:

"....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a red heart is Eric Hartmann who has

downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting

him down. I’ve never before heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "

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I have an Oscar with Kato's markings, and was aware of this but not the identity of the Blenhiem - Thank you.

My personal favorite is the engagement between the Ki-43-I Hayabusa ("Oscar") of Lt Col Tateo Katô, commander of the 64th Sentai, and the 60 Sqn. Blenheim Mk.IV Z9808 flown by W/O Martin Huggard, over the Bay of Bengal on 22 May 1942: the Blenheim's turret gunner Flt Sgt Jock McLuckie managed to shoot down the legendary Japanese ace. For years I've been trying to find what codes (if any) were carried by the Blenheim, to no avail. Any informed opinion on this, anyone? Thanks.

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During the fighting around Milne Bay in New Guinea in 1942 a RAAF Hudson took on three Japanese Zero`s and downed two of them, one by the gunner and one with the front guns and the remaining Zero legged it! There was also the Wirraway that shot down a Zero on Christmas Day 1942,.....both amazing feats!

I`d always thought that the Halifax and Horsa were shot down over the Bay of Biscay by Ju 88`s,I`d never heard of another Halifax/Horsa incident involving Fw 200``s but you live and learn, thanks for highlighting it .

Cheers

Tony O

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I believe the Laurance Thompson story has been criticised in the past and cant be proved. Certainly Hartmann never mentioned the encounter and several facts dont add up e.g. hartmanns style of encounter and he wasnt in Romania at that time and all Luftwaffe aces were instructed to remove distinctive markings from their planes at that time because of the bounty the USSR had placed on their heads and rumours that flight leaders were geting shot in their chutes when they baled.

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ref the Cunningham/Driscoll engagement, I have a better one - on the same day (10th May 1972) Curt Dose of VF-92 caught 2 Mig-21s taking off from Kep airfield, and chased them at low level around the circuit, downing 1 with a Sidewinder. I have the F-4 nearly finished - I know it was "Silverkite 211" but i do not have full details or the correct squadron insignia.

Thank you for your interest.

AT

Silverkite 211, callsign 'Kite 2' was a F-4J, BuNo 157269, I built a model of the F-4 he scored his MiG kill with for both him and Jim McDevitt, his RIO as a way to thank them for signing my print of 'Silverkite 211'

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Silverkite 211, callsign 'Kite 2' was a F-4J, BuNo 157269, I built a model of the F-4 he scored his MiG kill with for both him and Jim McDevitt, his RIO as a way to thank them for signing my print of 'Silverkite 211'

Thank you, that is brilliant! I read about this incdent in "One Day in a Long War" by Ethell/Price, about 10th May 1972. The image of the F-4 chasing a Mig at low level around the airfield has fascinated me ever since. Thank you for the image and information.

AT.

During the fighting around Milne Bay in New Guinea in 1942 a RAAF Hudson took on three Japanese Zero`s and downed two of them, one by the gunner and one with the front guns and the remaining Zero legged it! There was also the Wirraway that shot down a Zero on Christmas Day 1942,.....both amazing feats!

I`d always thought that the Halifax and Horsa were shot down over the Bay of Biscay by Ju 88`s,I`d never heard of another Halifax/Horsa incident involving Fw 200``s but you live and learn, thanks for highlighting it .

Cheers

Tony O

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My first impression was also that about the Halifax and Ju88s, but a quick look in Merrick showed that was another combat, DG396/QQ with Horsa HS102 on the way home. I don't think the one with the Condors (DK130/EE + ?) has been as widely published, but that may just be brain fade.

You can also add, IIRC, PB4Y-2 vs Emily in the Pacific.

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Hi,just seen this brill thread,i dont know much about aircraft,but i do recall reading about the only time a V2 was shot down,seeminly an aircraft was passing overhead,when it roared up from the forest below,slightly fortunate,that it hadnt got a full head of acceleration.Any way i believe this was the only time an aircraft,got to shoot down a V2,i will have a look for the details,might be of intrest...cheers Don

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I like the sound of that 0ne - Hudson's seem to crop up regularly in these kind of engagements.

There were several combats between Halifx/Horsa combinations as they transitted the Bay of Biscay - the most famous one involved a 295 sqn Mk V which successfully fought off attacks by 8 Ju88c's of KG40. The Horsa crew released the tow themselves, to give the Halifax a chance and were later picked up.

The combats that I am aware of were as follows:

14.6.43 Halifax Mk V DK130 / EE of 295 sqn, with Horsa - intercepted by 2 x Fw200C of 7/KG40. Halifax shot down with loss of crew, Horsa ditched, 2 crew recovered after 11 days at sea.

21.7.43 Halifax Mk V DG391 / RR of 295 sqn, returning to UK - intercepted and shot down by Ju88Cs of 15/KG40.

17.9.43 Halifax Mk V DG396 / QQ of 295 sqn, towing Horsa HS102 - intercepted by Ju88Cs of 13/KG40. Horsa ditched and crew rescued. Halifax evaded several attacks and eventually evaded into clouds. Pilot awarded DFC, rear gunner a DFM.

During the fighting around Milne Bay in New Guinea in 1942 a RAAF Hudson took on three Japanese Zero`s and downed two of them, one by the gunner and one with the front guns and the remaining Zero legged it! There was also the Wirraway that shot down a Zero on Christmas Day 1942,.....both amazing feats!

I`d always thought that the Halifax and Horsa were shot down over the Bay of Biscay by Ju 88`s,I`d never heard of another Halifax/Horsa incident involving Fw 200``s but you live and learn, thanks for highlighting it .

Cheers

Tony O

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the USN VPB squadrons in the Pacific - a whole project in itself. They were very aggressive and took photographs of everything! I am aware of several PBY / PB4Y combats. I have a book called "Goodbye to Some" by Gordon Forbes - it is a fiction but many of the incidents he mentions tie in with known events. I need to get buiding......

My first impression was also that about the Halifax and Ju88s, but a quick look in Merrick showed that was another combat, DG396/QQ with Horsa HS102 on the way home. I don't think the one with the Condors (DK130/EE + ?) has been as widely published, but that may just be brain fade.

You can also add, IIRC, PB4Y-2 vs Emily in the Pacific.

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Yes, I know "Goodbye to some". I think it is a version of real history, "improved" only to give it a dramatic form for the novel. Quite excellent - if not exactly action-filled. The relationships between the squadron aircrew and the more gung-ho core is reminiscent of James Salter's superb The Hunters.

The Anson/Bf109 clash is included in Peter Cornwell's The Battle of France Then and Now, which lists every aircraft lost in the campaign. The result was one badly damaged Bf109 which was scrapped after reaching its home base. I can find no mention of any Bf109s lost to Lysanders, but maybe I missed something. However, it is a useful reminder that there are losses, claims and bar stories: given the basic truth of the Anson tale, it pays to be careful.

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Thank you, that is brilliant! I read about this incdent in "One Day in a Long War" by Ethell/Price, about 10th May 1972. The image of the F-4 chasing a Mig at low level around the airfield has fascinated me ever since. Thank you for the image and information.

AT.

In addition to the 1/48 scale F-4, Curt asked me if I could make something showing the moment when he barrel rolled over the second MiG, trying to get it to break right and give Austin Hawkins a shot at it, this is what I did for him. It is 1/72 scale.

kite2_zps821166e2.jpg

By the way, you need to take some of the things Jeff Ethell says in that book with a grain of salt, as an example Curt and Austin Hawkins were tasked with being over Kep airfield, it wasn't a case of Hawkins wanting one last chance at a MiG before he returned to the US and going off "trolling for MiGs". I was at the Tailhook Convention in 1999, at the invite of Curt and, when I brought that up was corrected by all at the table, most especially Commander Gus Eggert. You may recognize his name as being one of the names painted on the canopy rail of 'Showtime 100', the F-4 flown by Randy Cunningham when he downed "Colonel Tomb".

Edited by silverkite211
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