A Plea to the Moderators

[Dave Fleming]

All I was merely trying to do was identify a growing and disturbing trend in criticising kits etc before they have actually been received in hand.......but only when it can be informed criticism based on having the product actually to hand

Ok, I'll bite... why is it so important to you that the kit must be in hand, if the opinion is informed and justified?

I can think on the Airfix Sea Harriers as an example - the first shot I saw of the FA2, I thought the nose was wrong, the canopy wrong and the rear fuselage looked off. When the kit arrived, I was right. I'd been really excited by that kit, and when I saw the first pics I was really flat. By your rationale, I wouldn't have been allowed to comment without first spending £10 on something I knew to be poor.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I really don't get why people get annoyed by people commenting on a kit?

Edited March 29, 2013 by Dave Fleming

[davem]

I think you just answered it 'looked off' i suppose its innocent until proven guilty till you fondle the styrene (or a balanced reviewer you trust has).

[robvulcan]

these convos fascinate me for they are a complete waist of our precious mortality ans a conclusion will never be found. well. not one that everyone agrees with.

put simply were all differnt. nuff said.

[Doug Rogers]

Is this the thread for an argument?

I thank Jennings for bringing the potential issue to our attention, however I don't think it will stop me getting at least one, as long as they're no trickier than the ICM kit, which I think still holds the torch overall.

[Tiger331]

Nope, that's not what is being said. Perhaps you're missing the key bit, I'll make it bold so there's no ambiguity:

"So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (edit) and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'."

Now I'm not seeing any demands for censorship, anything about curtailing free speech, banning people or anything that frankly - and again I'll stress this for clarity - isn't any different to what you agreed when you signed up in the first place.

Read it again - the OP didn't ask the mods to stop anything.

Its ironic that in a thread that highlights hyperbole then gets greeted with more hyperbole!

You, me, Tiger311, everyone else, are already in a managed environment, and we know this because we agreed it was when we signed up. What Tiger331 is suggesting - not demanding, suggesting - is clarity of that management as a marker so that we can avoid any more of the kind of tedium like the Eduard Spitfire thing, so that this place doesn't become like an-other forums, otherwise what's the point? We may as well just have one big homogenised über forum with no sense of individuality. (hyperbole, perhaps, but I'll use it just the once).

And if people ignore or persist in ignoring that marker - the same way other forums have markers about politics etc... - then the forum owners - any forum owner - has the right to act how they see fit with their property. Just as you have the right to exit a forum if you think you no longer think you have the freedoms you think you should be entitled to, or the general tone or atmosphere is not to your liking.

Because in all honesty I don't think you, me, Jack are going to lose anything. The only people who may lose out are the ones who want to import the same kind of crap from other places, and Tiger311s suggestion - note: suggestion - was a gentle reminder or clarification of the house rules. Or in other words, if someone walks into my house and start smoking and I object, the line "well Alan lets me smoke in his house" does not apply any more than protestations that I'm impinging on their personal freedom blah yadda blah.

House rules apply and house rules differ.

@Tiger331

I have read your post three times. Each time I have reached the same conclusion.

You see something you don't like and want the mod's to stop it for you, right? Because it's not convenient for you to ignore them. It offends you on some level.

Well, I don't like people that drop in into a discussion (however useless they think it is) and post something like "it's only a model" or "shut up and build it" or even "drop on your knees and praise the lord for you have been sold something to build" and yet I don't feel the need to go somewhere else or ask the mods to stop these kinds of posts.

Now what gives you that right?

Vedran

I give up.......read the post !

[Tiger331]

Ok, I'll bite... why is it so important to you that the kit must be in hand, if the opinion is informed and justified?

I can think on the Airfix Sea Harriers as an example - the first shot I saw of the FA2, I thought the nose was wrong, the canopy wrong and the rear fuselage looked off. When the kit arrived, I was right. I'd been really excited by that kit, and when I saw the first pics I was really flat. By your rationale, I wouldn't have been allowed to comment without first spending £10 on something I knew to be poor.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I really don't get why people get annoyed by people commenting on a kit?

Dave

Don't have a problem with this approach at all........If (but only if) the 'reviewer' is sure that they are looking at the final product, even before launch, then it is perfectly valid to pass judgement as an 'alert' to others.....what we are seeing though is 'informed comment' on test shots, CAD drawings etc well before the product reaches final fruition. These days I will not buy any kit or other product until I have seen informed comment or a full review from those generous and kind enough to take time out of their busy lives and schedules to do so but I would far rather this review be conducted once the product is in their mitts. Those that have issues with products before launch would spend their time better by taking up the issues with the manufacturer direct than pontificating on the forums in order to try and score points.

v/r

Mark

[Tiger331]

Nope, that's not what is being said. Perhaps you're missing the key bit, I'll make it bold so there's no ambiguity:

"So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (edit) and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'."

Now I'm not seeing any demands for censorship, anything about curtailing free speech, banning people or anything that frankly - and again I'll stress this for clarity - isn't any different to what you agreed when you signed up in the first place.

Read it again - the OP didn't ask the mods to stop anything.

Its ironic that in a thread that highlights hyperbole then gets greeted with more hyperbole!

You, me, Tiger311, everyone else, are already in a managed environment, and we know this because we agreed it was when we signed up. What Tiger331 is suggesting - not demanding, suggesting - is clarity of that management as a marker so that we can avoid any more of the kind of tedium like the Eduard Spitfire thing, so that this place doesn't become like an-other forums, otherwise what's the point? We may as well just have one big homogenised über forum with no sense of individuality. (hyperbole, perhaps, but I'll use it just the once).

And if people ignore or persist in ignoring that marker - the same way other forums have markers about politics etc... - then the forum owners - any forum owner - has the right to act how they see fit with their property. Just as you have the right to exit a forum if you think you no longer think you have the freedoms you think you should be entitled to, or the general tone or atmosphere is not to your liking.

Because in all honesty I don't think you, me, Jack are going to lose anything. The only people who may lose out are the ones who want to import the same kind of crap from other places, and Tiger311s suggestion - note: suggestion - was a gentle reminder or clarification of the house rules. Or in other words, if someone walks into my house and start smoking and I object, the line "well Alan lets me smoke in his house" does not apply any more than protestations that I'm impinging on their personal freedom blah yadda blah.

House rules apply and house rules differ.

Jonathan,

At least someone gets it, and I acknowledge there are others out there too......Thanks for your understanding and support, fellahs.

Mark

[chrismac60]

So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (I already have my own list of 'usual suspects') and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'...Otherwise we face the danger of going the way of the other sites out there and modellers will opt out.

Interesting thread and one where I can see both sides quite clearly. Good balance from Bill Clark too. Sometimes the talk is right, sometimes destructive even before the kit is packed.

That said, I find it a little worrying that you have a list of usual suspects, soon we will be hearing 'dont tell them your name Pike'.....'Your name in on zee list'. (pse supply own German accent)

Chris

[Gary C]

Censoring criticism huh? Wow, I guess the Chinese really have taken over the hobby.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Dave

Don't have a problem with this approach at all........If (but only if) the 'reviewer' is sure that they are looking at the final product, even before launch, then it is perfectly valid to pass judgement as an 'alert' to others.....what we are seeing though is 'informed comment' on test shots, CAD drawings etc well before the product reaches final fruition. These days I will not buy any kit or other product until I have seen informed comment or a full review from those generous and kind enough to take time out of their busy lives and schedules to do so but I would far rather this review be conducted once the product is in their mitts. Those that have issues with products before launch would spend their time better by taking up the issues with the manufacturer direct than pontificating on the forums in order to try and score points.

v/r

Mark

Hi Mark - I have some sympathy for this point of view, but I still maintain that once a manufacturer releases into the public domain pics of CAD renderings, drawings, test shots etc, then do become fair game. They want to create buzz and interest to sell product ( fair do) , but people, being people will comment if they perceive these images to have differences from the original. And yeah I know CAD shots can be distorted, as can camera angles etc, but I think you have to concede that if you release this into the world (and that is the net in reality for this type of thing) then you cant complain about the reaction.

And part of that reaction is going to be the stuff you dislike I'm afraid: For every "WhooHoo, finally a Gloster Globule Mk 6 in 1/48th scale, I'll buy a dozen!!!" you will always get a, "Jesus, I hope TromboneMaster dont mould the Globule Mk 6 using those CAD drawings, cus that rear fairing is from the MK 4, anyone can see that, Typical TromboneMaster shoddy research again!!!"

I also think that quite a few people have sent , or been asked for, advice, detail etc by certain manufacturers, only to find it being ignored in the final product. So perhaps pontificating on forums is all thats left sometimes.

Finally - there is just a chance of course that if a model gets toasted online from the CAD pics, then perhaps its not too late for the manufacturer to alter the CAD. If we all stood by and respectfully waited for the boxes to hit the shelves - then if its a dud, its too late.

Cheers

Jonners

[thx6667]

Censoring criticism huh? Wow, I guess the Chinese really have taken over the hobby.

Yes we could certainly do with more paranoid anti-Chinese sentiment here.

[Gary C]

Yes we could certainly do with more paranoid anti-Chinese sentiment here.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I did try, honest

[thx6667]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I did try, honest

Well you know what they say, two nations divided by the same language.

[Scarlet]

I'll keep my thought's regarding this thread to myself, but after showing my wife the Eduard decalgate thread, her comment was: -

"Oh my god, someone needs to get a life!"

I think that about sums it up.

[krow113]

If I may point out an example of a detrimental symptom of this 'kit bashing' situation , it would be regarding Great Walls P-61 in 1/48 scale. I recently purchased the kit , even after seeing the ridiculous amount of hyperbole on model forums regarding the nose and other percieved 'issues'. I personally asked Gaston "What are your qualifications regarding your 'evaluation' of the kit?" It was an almost single-handed destruction of the kit ,by a seemingly unqualified individual, that may have resulted in these kits being slow sellers. My 'detrimental symptom' was the fact that the kit languished in my LHS , went into the bargain bin , languished there , until I bought it. I believe the shredding the kit took on the internet is very much responsible for the lackluster sales I witnessed.

I think its a great kit of a cool subject and its definitely on my build list. I am not a fan of the shredding threads. A clear build log , well run ,with progressive pix will always be a better thread to visit.

[Vingtor]

.....what we are seeing though is 'informed comment' on test shots, CAD drawings etc well before the product reaches final fruition.

Quite right. This is what the comments are about. They (or we) comment about what they see, which is not neccesary what the final product will be. If the CAD drawings reveal errors, I see no problem that this issue is raised. It might lead to the errors being corrected by the manufacturer. If not, we modellers will know about the problems, and those who are conserned can do something about it.

Nils

[thx6667]

Quite right. This is what the comments are about. They (or we) comment about what they see, which is not neccesary what the final product will be. If the CAD drawings reveal errors, I see no problem that this issue is raised. It might lead to the errors being corrected by the manufacturer. If not, we modellers will know about the problems, and those who are conserned can do something about it.

Nils

But the issue isn't about "informed comment" because those who deal in facts with a measure of perspective and substance to back up their opinions get a receptive audience, and I don't think the OP was against that. With regard to issues being raised on CAD or test shots et al, it would be nice if folk did drop the company a line instead of rushing to a forum. But for the most part when people spot what they see as errors, their first response is to talk to the wrong audience on the proviso that model companies should be hanging on the every word or forums posts.

FWIW, I did email Eduard over that roundel, and I pointed out there might be an error. There was a polite exchange of emails, I sent them some info and they were very nice about it.

Dave F asked why is it so important someone have the kit must be in hand - well to use a poker metaphor, it important to know whether they have a good hand, or if they're bluffing. That way folk get to filter and refine what's objective and trustworthy and what's just white noise.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

If I may point out an example of a detrimental symptom of this 'kit bashing' situation , it would be regarding Great Walls P-61 in 1/48 scale. I recently purchased the kit , even after seeing the ridiculous amount of hyperbole on model forums regarding the nose and other percieved 'issues'. I personally asked Gaston "What are your qualifications regarding your 'evaluation' of the kit?" It was an almost single-handed destruction of the kit ,by a seemingly unqualified individual, that may have resulted in these kits being slow sellers. My 'detrimental symptom' was the fact that the kit languished in my LHS , went into the bargain bin , languished there , until I bought it. I believe the shredding the kit took on the internet is very much responsible for the lackluster sales I witnessed.

I think its a great kit of a cool subject and its definitely on my build list. I am not a fan of the shredding threads. A clear build log , well run ,with progressive pix will always be a better thread to visit.

Although in the case this kit, it may have been the fact that the review samples that went out had extra bits that didn't appear in the public boxing, plus the initial too small diameter engine cowling front holes, and it was/is an expensive kit.

I note, and forgive me for this, that you only bought it after it was in the for sale bin, even though it was your LHS. Shame you didn't plunge in regardless when it was on for full price, and to hell with those internet naysayers. Then you could have done a "clear build log , well run ,with progressive pix" to show us all how wrong they were.

Good bargain though I bet. Seems to me the shredding threads you are no fan of got you that bargain.

eyebrows

Jonners

[spruecutter96]

Evening all...

This hobby is supposed to be about enjoyment and relaxation. Have some people completely lost sight of that fact?

[Tiger331]

Quite right. This is what the comments are about. They (or we) comment about what they see, which is not neccesary what the final product will be. If the CAD drawings reveal errors, I see no problem that this issue is raised. It might lead to the errors being corrected by the manufacturer. If not, we modellers will know about the problems, and those who are conserned can do something about it.

Nils

Hei Nils,

Greetings from the West Coast !. Totally agree but surely the most effective way to do this is to approach the manufacturer direct ?. No matter how much we may like to think the manufacturers pore over our "informed comment" on the forum, the fact of life is that they simply don't have time. Better to contact direct although I know this then doesn't expose the individuals' expertise to the wider audience that they may be trying to impress.

Mark

But the issue isn't about "informed comment" because those who deal in facts with a measure of perspective and substance to back up their opinions get a receptive audience, and I don't think the OP was against that. With regard to issues being raised on CAD or test shots et al, it would be nice if folk did drop the company a line instead of rushing to a forum. But for the most part when people spot what they see as errors, their first response is to talk to the wrong audience on the proviso that model companies should be hanging on the every word or forums posts.

FWIW, I did email Eduard over that roundel, and I pointed out there might be an error. There was a polite exchange of emails, I sent them some info and they were very nice about it.

Dave F asked why is it so important someone have the kit must be in hand - well to use a poker metaphor, it important to know whether they have a good hand, or if they're bluffing. That way folk get to filter and refine what's objective and trustworthy and what's just white noise.

Jonathan

Another well rounded argument to add to this discussion....keep em coming !

Mark

[Tiger331]

Although in the case this kit, it may have been the fact that the review samples that went out had extra bits that didn't appear in the public boxing, plus the initial too small diameter engine cowling front holes, and it was/is an expensive kit.

I note, and forgive me for this, that you only bought it after it was in the for sale bin, even though it was your LHS. Shame you didn't plunge in regardless when it was on for full price, and to hell with those internet naysayers. Then you could have done a "clear build log , well run ,with progressive pix" to show us all how wrong they were.

Good bargain though I bet. Seems to me the shredding threads you are no fan of got you that bargain.

eyebrows

Jonners

Jonners,

Quite agree with your sentiment in this response but the original post from krow113 does raise another disturbing fact (though I know there will be those that argue it has minimal impact) and that is the one surrounding sales figures vs. 'informed comment'. Put quite simply, how do we expect to maintain the 'golden age' of kit releases if we continue to shoot down products before they have even hit the shelves ?.

Mark

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Jonners,

Quite agree with your sentiment in this response but the original post from krow113 does raise another disturbing fact (though I know there will be those that argue it has minimal impact) and that is the one surrounding sales figures vs. 'informed comment'. Put quite simply, how do we expect to maintain the 'golden age' of kit releases if we continue to shoot down products before they have even hit the shelves ?.

Mark

Hi Mark , I'd say that the 'golden age" and internet forums seem to co exist perfectly well. To me the latter has fuelled the former. I dont see any problem.

cheers

Jonners

[thx6667]

Jonners,

Quite agree with your sentiment in this response but the original post from krow113 does raise another disturbing fact (though I know there will be those that argue it has minimal impact) and that is the one surrounding sales figures vs. 'informed comment'. Put quite simply, how do we expect to maintain the 'golden age' of kit releases if we continue to shoot down products before they have even hit the shelves ?.

Mark

Long story short, mainstream kits sell in numbers far in excess of the numbers of people who use forums. Its rock pools and oceans.

[AngloSaxon]

Good to see a discussion as to whether things that could be discussed, should actually be discussed otherwise the discussion to decide whether said discussions should be discussed, would never actually be discussed and therefore, the discussion would be over before it had begun.

Mike.

[thx6667]

Good to see a discussion as to whether things that could be discussed, should actually be discussed otherwise the discussion to decide whether said discussions should be discussed, would never actually be discussed and therefore, the discussion would be over before it had begun.

Mike.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Jonathan Mock