A Plea to the Moderators

[Panzer Vor!!!]

every club , society , forum have people who do nothing but complain and whinge, they rarely build anything rarely show a model, but are first in line when the freebies are handed out.

However censorship is not the cure im sorry to say if we censor those remarks where does it end?? who will decide what can be said what cant?? the mods?? .Their are people on here now who think that their view is the only one that should be heard (you know who you are ). In a free society every man has his right to say what he wants same on here if you want free debate

[jetboy]

HI,ALL,all iwant to do is Model,and talk to likeminded people,who live in the real world,

sorry,beforehand,the devil made me do it?.....now how do i get my hand,s free?...........cheer,s Don

[Kallisti]

#1 thing to remember folks - nobody FORCES you to read a thread.

[thx6667]

Where is everyone getting this censorship thing from? Its popped up like a scare word to stir emotions, I reread the OPs post a few times now and I'm not finding any advocation of censorship.

[dragonlanceHR]

OP calling for higher power to enforce some "rules" or even worse, "standards" of what is permitted to be said?

From Wikipedia:

Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.

Fits the description, wouldn't you say?

Vedran

[jetboy]

Hi all,i ,think the word i was looking for was restraint,not restraints,sorry,its a big world,its a weird world,had the misfortune to be able to watch jeremy kyle this week,if you think a model or a few decals warrents such heated debate,your not in the real world,each to their own,we all get help off each other,in all way,s....right im off to outer space to finish an apollo27....yes i know its not real,but it is to me?

i,ll leave you alone now,with this parting thought,we are not clone,s,we are not number,s,we are individual,s...

now how do i get these restraint,s off,i need to get back to my workbench,thing,s are drying?

cheer,s Don

[Andrew Jones]

From Wikipedia:

Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.

Fits the description, wouldn't you say?

Vedran

What different is this to the role carried out by the mods already, it's Mike's site , lets not forget, so his rules. Anything objectionable is already frowned upon and may be removed, ie. overt political comment or extreme personal attacks. So I can see no harm in the moderators stepping in if any comment oversteps the mark.

Andrew

[dragonlanceHR]

Andrew, but the point is, do we need a new set rules abut what's permitted to be said about kits? On a forum about the kits?

If I think, and I do, that 1/48 Eduard Polikarpov I-16 is a bad kit, should I be afraid to post because some other member might take offense? And he's probably not even interested in Polikarpov's.

It's starting to remind me of HS, where any post that even mentioned the possibility of errors in CA kits hurt the feelings of a certain barrister and promptly got pulled. Mind you, the kits were still full of errors, but mum's the word...

Vedran

[Dave Fleming]

Jonathan used the word earlier, the issue is that hyperbole comes into this so much - so 'The kit's panel lines are too heavy' becomes ''it's unbuildable'

[Panzer Vor!!!]

send reinforcements i,m going to advance

send three and fourpence i,m going to a dance

:winkgrin:

whos next????

[Mike]

The rules are there, and have always been there. Polite & respectful. You could add "with a sense of perspective" to that, but most people already have that - it's just the usual few that don't. With any society, or microcosm thereof, it's the few that spoil it for the many and result in rules and regulations. If people could be relied upon to be polite & respectful with a sense of perspective, Mods would be redundant

People seem to be getting hung up on "censorship"/"don't read it then", when in actual fact it's a call for people to exercise some self-control. Sorry to keep picking on Jennings' thread, but if the topic title had been "Roundels a little off on the new Eduard Spit", and just given us a heads up, there wouldn't have been any of the too-ing and fro-ing that resulted, and the comments would have been more like "oh, ok, thanks - will watch out for that", rather than "get a grip".

[robvulcan]

I apologise if this topic is in the wrong place (I did do a search first to find another suitable 'spot') or has already been covered - I am not a daily visitor to BM so do not keep up with everything.

Anyway, without further ado, I'll get on with my gripe. I'm getting a little alarmed and frankly disappointed with the growing trend in 'kit bashing' (and here I'm not talking about converting kits) that is taking place on our great site. From my own observations this 'disease' started on ARC and Hyperscale, which is why I now seldom visit the former, largely emanated from Stateside and was mainly focused on products coming from Asia.

I have always taken pride in the fact that our website (I'm a Brit living and working in Norway before anyone decides to take a swipe) is different and has a uniquely British flavour to it, even if the spellcheck keeps correcting my 'English' !. In recent weeks/months I have witnessed 'behaviour' that would suggest otherwise and that we are risk of slipping into the same mould as the others. The Trumpeter 1:48 DH Vampire story, Kittyhawk 1:48 Mirage F.1B accuracy, Trumpeter 1:48 HU-16 Albatross box art (!) issue and most recently this ridiculous thread on the Eduard 1:48 Spitfire IX decal sheets all point towards an emerging trend which I, for one, do not like. Don't get me wrong....once a kit is released I would be the first to applaud those that take the time and trouble to point out faults so I, as someone who likes to spend wisely, can make an informed decision on whether to expend my hard earned cash on the kit, accessory or whatnot. To start tearing kits to pieces before they have even hit the streets is frankly ridiculous and I certainly don't buy into this 'We're only trying to help the manufacturer with their QA process' argument either.

We modellers have never had it so good with the current pace of releases and this in a period of world recession too. I cannot, in over 40 years of being a modeller think of a better time, particularly for those that favour the bigger scales of 1:48 and 1:32. Sure, some manufacturers are faring better than others in the accuracy and presentation stakes but they are all willing to put considerable sums of money into the hobby and we could at least reciprocate by being a little bit more civil and not passing judgement until after the event.

So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (I already have my own list of 'usual suspects') and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'...Otherwise we face the danger of going the way of the other sites out there and modellers will opt out.

Mark

Very much in agreement I'm from the old school modeling period were you were gratefull to have a good start "the kit"! But you would not expect perfection of fit or accuracy. That's what was the test of a good "modeller" someone who takes satisfaction in doing it themselves not an "assembler" I do appreciate accuracy but know we're it ends and that they are just models and that its all for fun. There is no harm in fair criticism but you're so right it's like a disease of negativity that can ruin a hobby or forum by those few who speak the loudest love the sound of their own voice and have the least to say. Those who get disproportionately angry over little.

I have seen this disease destroy another hobby of mine railways modelling were "modellers" just buy it ready made and moan they don't actually do much modelling anymore its mostly ready to run but will moan and say they are not spending the money because a nameplate or number is printed 2 mm out compared to the prototype.

It's best to cute this disease by ignoring them or politely challenging their opinions and point to other views reasons that they may have forgotten existed.

Basically it's simply in extreme cases "snobbery" many of us started with an inaccurate kit probably an old airfix or frog and loved it.

But a small fraction of us will forget this and become haters of our origins and sneer at those just starting out in the hobbies first attempt and forget that they were once the same.

I have not seen too much of this on here that's why I love BM its very friendly and has a great team of helpful fair mods

I love all the new kits of recent times especially airfix canberras harriers nimrod tsr2 vampire gnat etc

I still have never built a tamiya kit that falls together but to this day I'd still sooner build an old ill fitting frog or scarefix any day warts and all for I find the challenge more fun.

But that's just me and I welcome the grand church this is with all its opinions. Your view of the hobby is right for you it's your hobby and it is here we share out common interest but each of us will do it out own way.

Your modding life is a personal relationship between you your tools and together creating your modeling dreams. The forum is the modelling pub were we share and respect each others unique modelling relationship but do not stick our noses in other people's choices or business to deep have a mutual respect of each other and support each other were we can.

People who are two opinionated or brow beat others into subscribing to their views are just like pushy overbearing people on the street we all see you we all hear you and we all wish you would go away and leave the rest of us in peace.

Now I've written all that bla bla bla drivel I could have done some modelling but socialising on this forum is just as much a part of the hobby as sticking bits of plastic together and trying to at least capture the character of something real.

I reckon whiff modellers probably have the most fun as they can't be wrong lol

cheers Rob

[thx6667]

OP calling for higher power to enforce some "rules" or even worse, "standards" of what is permitted to be said?

From Wikipedia:

Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.

Fits the description, wouldn't you say?

Vedran

Nope. For starters, no one on any forum out there has "free speech" as such so, because every forum has its own rules and regulations. We all agree to abide by certain rules when we clicked the check box upon application so by default we all agree that we have a certain amount of latitude to work within. Now you can call that censorship if you like but I would presume that as you're a member here who agreed to the T&Cs, you're happy to operate within those guidelines.

Secondly, using your Wikipedia definition there, no one is talking about "suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body." No one is saying "hey if that guy start's dissing a kit based on some CAD or a photo ban him!". Any forum owner - BM, ARC, Z5, HS, CH, ATF, L&C et al - has the right to set the tone or what they feel is right for the ambience and well being of their forum and its members. Its their house, we are the guests. Now if one of they feel one of the conditions is, "we want to foster a practical and constructive atmosphere with a sense of perspective, so if you're going to come here and start picking a kit apart, at least have the plastic to back it up" then that's their prerogative.

Frankly, I would have no problem with such a condition. I'm sure someone would say "ah but its suppressing free speech from people who now can't point out error they see in a pic...". Well it doesn't if its done in a constructive manner, and in that regard those who know their stuff and have built reputations for objectivity without the hyperbole have nothing to fear because, for the most part, they usually end up backing their words with more detailed and first hand analysis when the kit shows up.

But if its just being done to stir up a poo-poostorm, evacuate some geographical prejudices or grab five minutes in the limelight... Oh dear, how I weep for the poor little darlings and their sense of faux outrage at being asked to back up their premature opinions with more than just words. Really, I'm sobbing buckets here.

So, theoretically, if a forum owner were to lay that down as a marker, is it preventing people from speaking their minds, or is it actually acting as a wake up call for people to refine their attitudes and language. If they have something relevant, objective and useful to say, its not a problem. If its just "blah blah look at me" then its not about stopping them saying something, but asking them to rethink their approach.

Like I said, its not censorship, its common sense.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Jonathan Mock

[Tiger331]

I don't think so.

The OP practically calls out for an official party line and thus self-censorship.

@ Jonners

I agree totally.

Vedran

Totally missed the point again.....how many more times ???

[thx6667]

I know what album I'm playing this afternoon!

[Tiger331]

I don't think so.

The OP practically calls out for an official party line and thus self-censorship.

@ Jonners

I agree totally.

Vedran

dragonlanceHR

Could I PLEASE ask you to go back and READ the original Post again........I don't think, at any stage, did I advocate any form of censorship. All I was merely trying to do was identify a growing and disturbing trend in criticising kits etc before they have actually been received in hand. Further, there is a small (and I stress small) band of self appointed specialists who are the core leaders of this disturbing trend, which IS having a negative effect on this website. In no way would I advocate any form of censorship that prevents modellers, whether experienced or otherwise, being denied valuable knowledge about the accuracy or otherwise of a particular product. After all, as many of alluded to, that is one of the values of these websites but only when it can be informed criticism based on having the product actually to hand. I cite Jon K-Ts excellent Vampire build-off as a superb example of the latter and long may this type of objective and useful review continue.

v/r

Mark

[robvulcan]

thats an awsome model johnathan mock! i dont know what it is but i love the "life" you have captured. excellent

[dragonlanceHR]

@Tiger331

I have read your post three times. Each time I have reached the same conclusion.

You see something you don't like and want the mod's to stop it for you, right? Because it's not convenient for you to ignore them. It offends you on some level.

Well, I don't like people that drop in into a discussion (however useless they think it is) and post something like "it's only a model" or "shut up and build it" or even "drop on your knees and praise the lord for you have been sold something to build" and yet I don't feel the need to go somewhere else or ask the mods to stop these kinds of posts.

Now what gives you that right?

Vedran

[thx6667]

thats an awsome model johnathan mock! i dont know what it is but i love the "life" you have captured. excellent

Not mine mate, it's Jetboy's!

[Dave A]

Two points:

1. As already mentioned, this board is private property, and its owners have the absolute right to set any rules they like regarding unacceptable conduct.

2. The notion that "you can't do that, it's censorship" is an argument for ceding ground to the lunatic fringe of any community. Why? Because they are the ones who will get sufficiently worked up to go on posting angry rebuttals and new personal attacks long after any reasonable person would have [will have] given up and left.

So, you can have a discussion about what the acceptable limits of behaviour ought to be, and set them, but you can't denounce the concept of having limits, and expect a reasonable atmosphere to prevail. Too many loonies in the world for that.

[chaddy]

dragonlanceHR

Could I PLEASE ask you to go back and READ the original Post again........I don't think, at any stage, did I advocate any form of censorship. All I was merely trying to do was identify a growing and disturbing trend in criticising kits etc before they have actually been received in hand. Further, there is a small (and I stress small) band of self appointed specialists who are the core leaders of this disturbing trend, which IS having a negative effect on this website. In no way would I advocate any form of censorship that prevents modellers, whether experienced or otherwise, being denied valuable knowledge about the accuracy or otherwise of a particular product. After all, as many of alluded to, that is one of the values of these websites but only when it can be informed criticism based on having the product actually to hand. I cite Jon K-Ts excellent Vampire build-off as a superb example of the latter and long may this type of objective and useful review continue.

v/r

Mark

I'm one who would much rather read a review and have a dabate when plastic is in hand. However, you are raising a point that does irritate many. The fact is that it may irritate many, but the many recognise it for what it is and deal with it. There is no reason for the mods to do anymore than they do at present. There have been a couple of instances recently where they have stepped in, and quite rightly.

You seem to have made the mistake of the people you dislike. Pehaps, you should have raised you concerns without trying to involve the mods. Then we might not be muddying the waters with talk of censorship.

Your post reminds me of something from Gilbert and Sulliavan's Mikado. As Ko Ko might say:

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,

I've got a little list — I've got a little list

Of society offenders who might well be underground,

And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!

A small band of self appointed specialists,

They'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

(Chorus:)

He's got 'em on the list — he's got 'em on the list;

And they'll none of 'em be missed — they'll none of 'em be missed.

Cheers

Edited March 29, 2013 by chaddy

[thx6667]

dragonlanceHR, on 29 Mar 2013 - 15:58, said:

@Tiger331

I have read your post three times. Each time I have reached the same conclusion.

You see something you don't like and want the mod's to stop it for you, right? Because it's not convenient for you to ignore them. It offends you on some level.

Nope, that's not what is being said. Perhaps you're missing the key bit, I'll make it bold so there's no ambiguity:

"So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (edit) and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'."

Now I'm not seeing any demands for censorship, anything about curtailing free speech, banning people or anything that frankly - and again I'll stress this for clarity - isn't any different to what you agreed when you signed up in the first place.

dragonlanceHR, on 29 Mar 2013 - 15:58, said:

style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Well, I don't like people that drop in into a discussion (however useless they think it is) and post something like "it's only a model" or "shut up and build it" or even "drop on your knees and praise the lord for you have been sold something to build" and yet I don't feel the need to go somewhere else or ask the mods to stop these kinds of posts.

Now what gives you that right?

Vedran

Read it again - the OP didn't ask the mods to stop anything.

Its ironic that in a thread that highlights hyperbole then gets greeted with more hyperbole!

You, me, Tiger311, everyone else, are already in a managed environment, and we know this because we agreed it was when we signed up. What Tiger331 is suggesting - not demanding, suggesting - is clarity of that management as a marker so that we can avoid any more of the kind of tedium like the Eduard Spitfire thing, so that this place doesn't become like an-other forums, otherwise what's the point? We may as well just have one big homogenised über forum with no sense of individuality. (hyperbole, perhaps, but I'll use it just the once).

And if people ignore or persist in ignoring that marker - the same way other forums have markers about politics etc... - then the forum owners - any forum owner - has the right to act how they see fit with their property. Just as you have the right to exit a forum if you think you no longer think you have the freedoms you think you should be entitled to, or the general tone or atmosphere is not to your liking.

Because in all honesty I don't think you, me, Jack are going to lose anything. The only people who may lose out are the ones who want to import the same kind of crap from other places, and Tiger311s suggestion - note: suggestion - was a gentle reminder or clarification of the house rules. Or in other words, if someone walks into my house and start smoking and I object, the line "well Alan lets me smoke in his house" does not apply any more than protestations that I'm impinging on their personal freedom blah yadda blah.

House rules apply and house rules differ.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Jonathan Mock

[Panzer Vor!!!]

I think you re better off leaving it as it is. If you dont like what they say dont read it . I think that Mike and his team of mods do a good job and will move swiftly to stop the forum becoming a knocking shop of models

[Pilgrim_UK]

Now what gives you that right?

The same right that allows you to question it. All the original OP did was ask.

If we cant ask civilised questions to the mods time to get the flock out of here.

[davem]

a knocking shop of models

Now theres a thread worth reading about i wouldnt care about 0.5mm differences in diameter in that one!