A Plea to the Moderators

[Mike]

There's a MASSIVE difference between constructive criticism and histrionic whining and hand wringing over a kit's issues. The pitchfork mob, and they know who they are, aren't welcome at Britmodeller. The modellers that want to discuss a kit (and not eachother's parentage) in a calm and reasonable way will always be welcome. Just exercise some manners, some balance and perspective, consider that you may actually be fallible, and we'll all get on much better

[Giorgio N]

The thing that always amazes me in my admittedly limited period of keen interest in this hobby, is that there appears to be no such thing as a faultless model kit. And so a lot of these discussions about the profile of a Mirage’s nose being a bit off seem a bit like me continually complaining about the lack of clear blue skies and 30 odd degree temperature days in Manchester. As much as I’d like that kind of climate, it just isn’t going to happen. Never has, never will so you just have to accept these things. Point it out sure, but give yourself a coronary about it, why bother?

There are many kits that can be considered faultless. I say "can be considered" as there are certain limitations to what can be achieved in plastic anyway. There are kits that get the shapes right, have the correct details, offer well researched decal options, are well moulded and have nice surface details, so having a kit with all these features is not the utopic desire of a few anoraks, but something that manufacturers have done before, do today and will no doubt keep doing.

It might sound like there are no faultless kits but the only reason is that people rarely start a thread to say "listen here folks, I just started this kit and it's really well done, nice panel lines, accurate shapes, all the right details, good decals, great fit....". As these things exist, it's only logical that some people might want more of the same and would be disappointed if they can't have it

[cardiff guy]

I for one oppose censorship Though I wish people would reserve judgement till they see things for them self's.

Regards Glenn

[Vingtor]

As a modeller I appreciate any criticism about any kit either before or after it is released. This doesn’t mean that I have to agree, but at least I can focus on the issues and decide for myself if this is important or not for me. I appreciate that these issues are raised before I spend my own money.

As a manufacturer (of decals – not kits) I frequently post images of the artwork on internet forums before shipping the artwork to the printer. It does happen that someone finds out about smaller or even big flaws, which I then manage to correct before the product is manufactured. I would miss this opportunity if I should wait till they “get the kit in their hands”.

Thus, I find it of great value to have new product considered before they are manufactured. This might contribute to correct inaccuracies; something that I think is good. If not, it gives me the opportunity to correct details that are wrong when the product is released, or to prevent me from spending money on a product which is no good.

Though, a test run is still a test run. When I saw the new sprues for the Eduard Spitfire Mk.IX a couple of weeks ago, they were much better than on the photos seen on the net.

Nils

[SeaVenom]

gcn: Agreed wholeheartedly.

Mark: Censorship is exactly what you are suggesting. You are doing it very politely, but you are requesting that people do not post about what they see as faults. For fear of what? Upsetting some poor delicate souls who cannot cope with different opinions existing in the world? I think you grossly underestimate the moral strength of the membership.

Couldn't agree more. People don't always get things right but there's absolutely nothing wrong with people posting what they think are faults, inaccuracies before a kit comes out.

[Tiger331]

As a modeller I appreciate any criticism about any kit either before or after it is released. This doesn’t mean that I have to agree, but at least I can focus on the issues and decide for myself if this is important or not for me. I appreciate that these issues are raised before I spend my own money.

As a manufacturer (of decals – not kits) I frequently post images of the artwork on internet forums before shipping the artwork to the printer. It does happen that someone finds out about smaller or even big flaws, which I then manage to correct before the product is manufactured. I would miss this opportunity if I should wait till they “get the kit in their hands”.

Thus, I find it of great value to have new product considered before they are manufactured. This might contribute to correct inaccuracies; something that I think is good. If not, it gives me the opportunity to correct details that are wrong when the product is released, or to prevent me from spending money on a product which is no good.

Though, a test run is still a test run. When I saw the new sprues for the Eduard Spitfire Mk.IX a couple of weeks ago, they were much better than on the photos seen on the net.

Nils

Nils

Your last comment pretty much sums up the essence of my original post.....In other words, "one should not judge a book by its cover or until they have read it", an old adage that can be adjusted to apply to the review of a kit, accessory or decal sheet..

[SeaVenom]

Nils

Your last comment pretty much sums up the essence of my original post.....In other words, "one should not judge a book by its cover or until they have read it", an old adage that can be adjusted to apply to the review of a kit, accessory or decal sheet..

Maybe that is the case in some instances but what you seem to be saying is that people should be censored from pointing out what they think are inaccuracies before a kit comes out. If you think like that let's censor people talking about kits once they've been released too. Then we could have people talking about nothing then. Be great!

[Jon Bryon]

I think some people are confusing two issues here: 1) the critical examination of CAD drawings and test shots before general release, and 2) the manner in which such criticism is carried out.

I cannot see why 1) is a problem. I am extremely grateful to those who are casting expert eyes over CAD drawings, etc., and thus revealing problems with the kit before release. Of the kits I have followed, I think all mistakes caught before release to the general public have been proved to be real, or corrected. Are there any exceptions? Is there any case of such criticisms being shown to be wrong after people have 'had the plastic in their hands'? My perception is that pre-release criticisms of accuracy have generally been proved to be true; I can't think of any exceptions.

(The above, however, excludes the surface detail debate that has plagued kits such as recent Airfix releases, most Trumpeter kits, the Eduard Spitfire, Hasegawa 1/48 F-22, etc. Surface detail is *always* an interpretation since scale reproduction is a physical impossibility in the scales we work in. This issue is, however, in my mind quite separate from the accuracy of shape and markings.)

The problem is that when doing 1) many commentators resort to hyperbolic language which taints their message, and people take offence because of 2). A good example is the recent criticism of the 1/48 Trumpeter MiG-21F-13, which does have faults, but the information has often been conveyed in a condescending and, IMO, inappropriate fashion. There will always be those who insist that the information is what's important, not the manner in which it's conveyed, but I believe that is to misunderstand a fairly important part of what it means to be human.

In short, please do not stop pre-release criticism of kits. That would be a great disservice to the modelling community. But please do share your observations and expertise in a manner befitting adult conversation. I am grateful for Jennings showing that the roundels in the Spitfire are dimensionally wrong, but it could have been done without the additional comments that had the appearance of trolling.

Jon

[MikeC]

An interesting thread. I'm with those who are quite happy to see reasoned, constructive comments on a kit pre-release, and I will form an initial opinion of the kit based on the comments of others and my own interpretation of any photos. I'm quite happy to modify that opinion once the actual plastic is released, and ideally when I've seen a copy. But if it's saved me from expending emotional capital (enthusiasm, anticipation, etc) and more importantly, money, on something that's going to need more work than I'm prepared to put in*, then that's good.

If I disagree with the poster's assessment I may post if the disagreement is significant enough, or may not. If I don't like the way it's being said, I snort and hit he "back" button. Even if I disagree with it, I may find it amusing. But PLEASE do not ban such discussions - they are a part of what makes visiting modelling forums interesting.

(* Currently on my workbench: Spitfire PRXI using a Falcon vacform fuselage: two SH Spitfires awaiting start. I simply mention this to put into context the amount of work I'm prepared to put in.)

[Paul A H]

Couldn't agree more. People don't always get things right but there's absolutely nothing wrong with people posting what they think are faults, inaccuracies before a kit comes out.

Provided that such posts are reasonable and backed up by evidence, then I wouldn't have a problem with that (although I would take such posts with a pinch of salt until verified when the kit is released). As John T points out, the fights tend to start when such posters use overly emotive or inflammatory language. I recall seeing a comment about one kit where the poster suggested that the designer must have had "s*** in his eyes". I'm not joking, that's a real example. There have been plenty of other comments where the parentage of the manufacturers has been called into question, they've been called "monkeys" or calls have been made for the designer of a kit to be fired.

Of course such tone isn't limited to discussions about new kits, but it seems to be increasingly characteristic of them. Such comments are way over the top and do nothing to enhance the quality or reputation of the site. Those responsible for making them really need to get a sense of perspective and learn to express themselves in more rational terms. Unless of course they're just setting out to cause an argument...

As for Eduard deserving closer scrutiny because they decided to promote one of their products - how does that make a difference? All manufacturers promote their products to some extent. This may come as a shock to some, but organisations like Eduard are commercial entities. They make money by manufacturing products that they think people will buy and then promoting them to potential customers. That's the nature of the beast, and I don't see how it makes any difference to an objective assessment of the product.

[davem]

You should be also be aware that since this sites re vamp there is an ignore function where you can totally blank anyone regularly posts topics or replies you find preachy or just plain trolling for attention to their opinions, it works remarkably well its inception was one thing that kept me on here.

'Cue replies of who said that'

[dragonlanceHR]

I strongly disagree with the original poster and his attempt at introducing the political correctnes on BM.

If you don't like or aren't interested in the topic, skip it over. If you disagree with the poster, reply to his post. If you're offended by the poster, report it to the mods.

Everything else is plain censorship.

Vedran

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Interesting thread chaps, and I can see both sides here; and I've chimed in a few models where they dont look right in the pre-release photos.

One thing no one seems to have mentioned, is that model manufacturers release pics of "test shots' , sprues, CAD drawings etc to generate publicity to sell the product to us modellers. If they dont like the fact that sometimes these are criticised for possible or even blatantly obvious inaccuracies, then they can simple stop doing it, and just release the kit when its ready to release: Then we can all go buy one and criticise the actual released model.

But if they issue pics of models in their "pre-release" states, then I'm afraid they have to take the rough with the smooth in my book.

Histrionics in posts don't help of course, but do consider that everyone has a different style of writing and expressing opinion, and for some english isn't their first language, so that can sometimes cause inadvertent problems. People get upset and name call because they are human and get carried away, and we all know the keyboard is a mighty weapon that lets you express things you would never say face to face. But I'm for variety, opinion and discussion; and if you dont like a thread you can always choose to not read it.

cheers

Jonners

[Tiger331]

I strongly disagree with the original poster and his attempt at introducing the political correctnes on BM.

If you don't like or aren't interested in the topic, skip it over. If you disagree with the poster, reply to his post. If you're offended by the poster, report it to the mods.

Everything else is plain censorship.

Vedran

Sorry youve totally missed the point

[Tiger331]

At the risk of repeating myself, i'll reiterate

I'm not advocating any form of censorship !!!

All I was trying to say is let's have a bit of decorum when it comes to commenting on kits or other items before they are released. Many have commented now and I sense that the majority feel the way that I do.....that we are in danger of going the way of ARC and others.....their current 'reputation' has devalued them as a resource for measured and informed debate on the relative merits or otherwise of a particular product.

Here's another thought.....And I know its been mentioned before but it is worth repeating.....Why don't those that feel so passionately about an issue with a kit or accessory or decal sheet take it up with the manufacturer direct ?. This is by far the most timely and efficient way in which to get these 'issues' dealt with. With one or two notable exceptions, the vast majority of manufacturers simply do not have the time to scan all of the forums and there is nothing better than direct communication.....or is it, as some have suggested, merely a question of individuals wanting to gain some form one upmanship ?

Cheers

Mark

T with.

Provided that such posts are reasonable and backed up by evidence, then I wouldn't have a problem with that (although I would take such posts with a pinch of salt until verified when the kit is released). As John T points out, the fights tend to start when such posters use overly emotive or inflammatory language. I recall seeing a comment about one kit where the poster suggested that the designer must have had "s*** in his eyes". I'm not joking, that's a real example. There have been plenty of other comments where the parentage of the manufacturers has been called into question, they've been called "monkeys" or calls have been made for the designer of a kit to be fired.

Of course such tone isn't limited to discussions about new kits, but it seems to be increasingly characteristic of them. Such comments are way over the top and do nothing to enhance the quality or reputation of the site. Those responsible for making them really need to get a sense of perspective and learn to express themselves in more rational terms. Unless of course they're just setting out to cause an argu

ment...

Well said that man !

As for Eduard deserving closer scrutiny because they decided to promote one of their products - how does that make a difference? All manufacturers promote their products to some extent. This may come as a shock to some, but organisations like Eduard are commercial entities. They make money by manufacturing products that they think people will buy and then promoting them to potential customers. That's the nature of the beast, and I don't see how it makes any difference to an objective assessment of the product.

[Andrew Jones]

Interesting thread chaps, and I can see both sides here; and I've chimed in a few models where they dont look right in the pre-release photos.

One thing no one seems to have mentioned, is that model manufacturers release pics of "test shots' , sprues, CAD drawings etc to generate publicity to sell the product to us modellers. If they dont like the fact that sometimes these are criticised for possible or even blatantly obvious inaccuracies, then they can simple stop doing it, and just release the kit when its ready to release: Then we can all go buy one and criticise the actual released model.

But if they issue pics of models in their "pre-release" states, then I'm afraid they have to take the rough with the smooth in my book.

Histrionics in posts don't help of course, but do consider that everyone has a different style of writing and expressing opinion, and for some english isn't their first language, so that can sometimes cause inadvertent problems. People get upset and name call because they are human and get carried away, and we all know the keyboard is a mighty weapon that lets you express things you would never say face to face. But I'm for variety, opinion and discussion; and if you dont like a thread you can always choose to not read it.

cheers

Jonners

What Jonners says is perfectly correct , but as always there is the flip side of the argument, where some "modellers" will percive faults in an upcoming kit that perhaps do not exist. We have all seen the advocates of the "red pen" who draw over photographs to make their misguided point, only to be slapped down by the real experts . How do you allow real discussion without the misleading element ? , ignore it ? , there is the real danger that some may read these comments and believe them. How does one filter these elements of a discussion ? , censorship ?, a definate no !, what is the answer ? , that will need a wiser head than mine.

Andrew

[Gary West]

Doesn't this simply come down to us as individual modellers, the expression of our "needs from a model"? Remember chaps there are ALMOST 11,000 signed up members to B M, and I wonder how many scales of modelling capability - beginner, expert etc?

There are those that say "it looks like a xxxxx, so that's good enough for me.

There are then those that like a model to replicate the real thing as closely as possible (no not a rivet counter) and whilst always prepared to do the odd bit here and there, pretty much expect the manufacturer to have put sufficient research into their subject to get it as right as possible.

I personally fall into the second camp, a model is a miniture of the real thing and when I build a kit I try my best to research to represent as realisticly as possible (flaps up/down etc) But then I'll always make allowances for the manufacturer - Airfix rarely deliver a Tamigawa quality kit for instance, then there's the price - all allowances that balance any opinion.

To start a topic "Plea to the moderators" is another way of suggesting please stop people having an any other opinion other than "Wow, its great!" or similar - as many have said before on this thread, if you dont like other opinions read on.

If we were all the same, how boring would that be!

[dragonlanceHR]

Sorry youve totally missed the point

I don't think so.

The OP practically calls out for an official party line and thus self-censorship.

@ Jonners

I agree totally.

Vedran

[Giorgio N]

At the risk of repeating myself, i'll reiterate

I'm not advocating any form of censorship !!!

All I was trying to say is let's have a bit of decorum when it comes to commenting on kits or other items before they are released. Many have commented now and I sense that the majority feel the way that I do.....that we are in danger of going the way of ARC and others.....their current 'reputation' has devalued them as a resource for measured and informed debate on the relative merits or otherwise of a particular product.

Cheers

Mark

T with.

Sorry Mark, I can't agree with this part of what you're writing here. The reputation of a forum comes from the overall content of the same. Just enter any of the aircraft sections and you will find informed discussions on topics like colour schemes, technical differences betwewen versions, history of single aircrafts, suggestions about kits and accessories. I'm sure the vehicles, naval and tank sections are the same. Then enter the techniques section and you'll find valuable suggestions on modelling techniques, tools and so on. Enter the various group builds and the WIP sections and you'll see builds that would be of help to anyone doing the same subject.

yes, in every section you will also find discussions that are sometime heated and don't seem to bring to anything, might be the discussion over the CAD drawings of the next kit from china/japan/europe/america, or the discussion about how well the Buffalo did in combat or why doesn't aitalrevell makes a kit of the Tebaldi Zara that sure would sell by the thousands, at least I'd buy one and so would my cousin. Yes, there are discussions like these but what is their relative weight in the overall content of the forum ? very little, even if some of these can reach 15 pages...

The same can be said of other internet based forums, I find their reputation is still intact for the information that is provided. I don't care if 2 or 3 persons once in a while fight over a kit manufacturer, it does not detract from the good information that can be found.

I say this with a good knowledge of the way a forum can go, as the first internet forum I joined was closed as a result of the reckless behaviour of a couple of posters (who intentionally acted to bring the forum to close). Did that behaviour had anything to do with what happens here ? Not at all ! So I'm confident that the reputation of Britmodeller is still high because of the good information that members post, because questions are answered, ideas shared, techniques discussed and there's also room for a chat.

Then if once in a while there's a bit of a brawl, isn't this part of life anyway ? Don't nights out with the lads sometime end up in some heated discussion over nothing ? In a sense a forum is like the local pub: not all people like all the others, each has his own character, the discussions are mostly good but some can be annoying. The publican will step in to calm everyone when needed, and if things get really bad he'll kick some bottoms out. His pub, his rules !

[Kallisti]

At the risk of repeating myself, i'll reiterate

I'm not advocating any form of censorship !!!

Unfortunately you are, no matter how you dress it up - self censorship as you suggest is STILL censorship imposed by outside agencies.

If people want to complain and whine about a kit not being "perfect", then they should be able to. You as the reader are not FORCED into reading their post, you are quite capable as an adult to make up your own mind and ignore a thread or particular posts in a thread.

This is censorship, even though you try to deny it as such. You may think it is for good sensible reasons to stop someone being able to express their opinion, but you have no business deciding who may or may not express their opinion, and neither do the moderators on this forum (when those opinions don't break the established rules of the forum).

People will hold opinions you don't agree with and sometimes express them in a way you might not like. You have to learn to live with that. You do not have the right to try to stop them expressing those opinions.

Please understand that this is not intended as a belligerent post even though I do say things like "you don't have the right", I don't mean it in any nasty way.

[Abacus]

She's going Captain........

[thx6667]

and for some english isn't their first language

Hey come on Jonner's, leave the American's alone!

Only joking, serious face now - I think "censorship" is the straw man argument that gets pooped out as part of the monotonous hyperbole every time this subject rears its ugly fat derrière.

Jonner's raises a good point about companies showing off test shots, but then to some extent its a Catch 22 - if they don't people are jumping up and down demanding news and info of an upcoming kit and a minority will even read something negative if there's no news (it must be bad, they're not showing test shots). Then when this appetite is satiated, it can be the prelude for "see who can be the first to find something wrong".

I take Jonners point that manufacturers have to "take the rough with the smooth" as soon as images of test shots start being disseminated, but the flip side is that those eager to start critiquing from an armchair must do likewise. And if they don't like people pointing what they may see as premature, pointless, unqualified or unquantified observations based on pics or CAD rather than plastic in hand, then tough. Stick your head up, prepare to get it shot off.

OK, a few people with an eye for detail and shape may be able to spot something and call it out based on a pic. The problem there is not every does, but they see others doing it as the norm, they have a keyboard and a forum account and before you know it they're flapping away with an opinion of an impression of what they think they're seeing. If they feel they have the right to do that, fine - but again, equally people also have the right to question how they are arriving at that opinion and call that. What is sauce for the goose etc...

There are manner of things people can perceive wrong - CAD may foreshorten perspectives, of the lighting of the CAD model may not fully render out a subtly of shape. SLA's (resin prototypes) may be the first stage of the tweaking process, test shots may be first shots with some tweaking to do. Its often telling that those most vocal in saying "nothing is going to get changed" with regard to whether a test shot may be in a state of flux have no experience of understanding of the production process - but since when do facts get in the way of an opinion, mash mash mash. Fine, call it out if you feel the need, just don't get in a hissy fit if your powers of prescience and omnipotence are question in the absence of plastic.

And let's be honest here, ego is going to play its part. A few souls will feel the need to have their id stroked and get their five minutes of attention by seeing of they can get people to fall in line with their opinion ("who's with me boys!"), get a reaction for kicks, or simply have an opinion for the sake of an opinion in the absence of anything practical or constructive to say.

Plus I think, as a membership, we should ask ourselves what was it about BM that made us join and stick (modelling metaphor there - geddit?). How many people were tired of the "pitchfork mob" as Mike put it and just wanted somewhere where things were a little more measured, people talked about kits as grown ups.

Long story short, its not censorship, its almost self moderating in a way. If a few folk felt they were not going to get a receptive audience for their review-from-an-armchair based on CAD or a few photos or test shots, or even a photo-of-a-poster-of-some-CAD that's not a blow for freedom of speech. Quite the reverse I'd argue, we would still get informed opinion and criticism of a kit, the difference is that at least people would be sure what they are reading is qualified and quantified because someone has plastic on the their workbench.

Its not censorship, its a victory for common sense.

[davem]

Ive read a few things on here that remind me of some of the more 'vocal' forums where basically nowts right but for the moment there is a still credible balance to this forum, you can be your own moderator using the 'ignore' function or simply avoiding topics that are frequented by the more hysterical preachers of wisdom. The balance is about right for now topics get locked at the right points just as the air is going a bit blue (according to federal standards) to alter it would spoil that.

One thought if you advocate the total freedom to expresss opinions do you want to submit a request for the return of Gaston and his red pen?

[marty_hopkirk]

I apologise if this topic is in the wrong place (I did do a search first to find another suitable 'spot') or has already been covered - I am not a daily visitor to BM so do not keep up with everything.

Anyway, without further ado, I'll get on with my gripe. I'm getting a little alarmed and frankly disappointed with the growing trend in 'kit bashing' (and here I'm not talking about converting kits) that is taking place on our great site. From my own observations this 'disease' started on ARC and Hyperscale, which is why I now seldom visit the former, largely emanated from Stateside and was mainly focused on products coming from Asia.

I have always taken pride in the fact that our website (I'm a Brit living and working in Norway before anyone decides to take a swipe) is different and has a uniquely British flavour to it, even if the spellcheck keeps correcting my 'English' !. In recent weeks/months I have witnessed 'behaviour' that would suggest otherwise and that we are risk of slipping into the same mould as the others. The Trumpeter 1:48 DH Vampire story, Kittyhawk 1:48 Mirage F.1B accuracy, Trumpeter 1:48 HU-16 Albatross box art (!) issue and most recently this ridiculous thread on the Eduard 1:48 Spitfire IX decal sheets all point towards an emerging trend which I, for one, do not like. Don't get me wrong....once a kit is released I would be the first to applaud those that take the time and trouble to point out faults so I, as someone who likes to spend wisely, can make an informed decision on whether to expend my hard earned cash on the kit, accessory or whatnot. To start tearing kits to pieces before they have even hit the streets is frankly ridiculous and I certainly don't buy into this 'We're only trying to help the manufacturer with their QA process' argument either.

We modellers have never had it so good with the current pace of releases and this in a period of world recession too. I cannot, in over 40 years of being a modeller think of a better time, particularly for those that favour the bigger scales of 1:48 and 1:32. Sure, some manufacturers are faring better than others in the accuracy and presentation stakes but they are all willing to put considerable sums of money into the hobby and we could at least reciprocate by being a little bit more civil and not passing judgement until after the event.

So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (I already have my own list of 'usual suspects') and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'...Otherwise we face the danger of going the way of the other sites out there and modellers will opt out.

Mark

Agreed.

Marty...

[ejboyd5]

In every phase of life there are always those whose main contribution is bitching rather than doing something constructive. Irritating as it may be we are not going to change human nature so we might as well ignore the naysayers and move on to what pleases us. Censorship, however, is not the answer as that starts one on a very slippery slope.