A Plea to the Moderators

[Tiger331]

I apologise if this topic is in the wrong place (I did do a search first to find another suitable 'spot') or has already been covered - I am not a daily visitor to BM so do not keep up with everything.

Anyway, without further ado, I'll get on with my gripe. I'm getting a little alarmed and frankly disappointed with the growing trend in 'kit bashing' (and here I'm not talking about converting kits) that is taking place on our great site. From my own observations this 'disease' started on ARC and Hyperscale, which is why I now seldom visit the former, largely emanated from Stateside and was mainly focused on products coming from Asia.

I have always taken pride in the fact that our website (I'm a Brit living and working in Norway before anyone decides to take a swipe) is different and has a uniquely British flavour to it, even if the spellcheck keeps correcting my 'English' !. In recent weeks/months I have witnessed 'behaviour' that would suggest otherwise and that we are risk of slipping into the same mould as the others. The Trumpeter 1:48 DH Vampire story, Kittyhawk 1:48 Mirage F.1B accuracy, Trumpeter 1:48 HU-16 Albatross box art (!) issue and most recently this ridiculous thread on the Eduard 1:48 Spitfire IX decal sheets all point towards an emerging trend which I, for one, do not like. Don't get me wrong....once a kit is released I would be the first to applaud those that take the time and trouble to point out faults so I, as someone who likes to spend wisely, can make an informed decision on whether to expend my hard earned cash on the kit, accessory or whatnot. To start tearing kits to pieces before they have even hit the streets is frankly ridiculous and I certainly don't buy into this 'We're only trying to help the manufacturer with their QA process' argument either.

We modellers have never had it so good with the current pace of releases and this in a period of world recession too. I cannot, in over 40 years of being a modeller think of a better time, particularly for those that favour the bigger scales of 1:48 and 1:32. Sure, some manufacturers are faring better than others in the accuracy and presentation stakes but they are all willing to put considerable sums of money into the hobby and we could at least reciprocate by being a little bit more civil and not passing judgement until after the event.

So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (I already have my own list of 'usual suspects') and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'...Otherwise we face the danger of going the way of the other sites out there and modellers will opt out.

Mark

[tcstom]

I whole heartedly agree (though I do get some enjoyment from reading the rants). Let's just wait until the kit is out it before we desteoy its reputation.

Tom

[Alpha Delta 210]

I'm with you all the way, Mark. Well said!

[stevej60]

Mark,I agree with what you say.I think 90% of modeller,s build for pure enjoyment and as you say we have never had it so good.I see new airfix releases

as a lifeline to bring young people into the hobby but getting a rough ride on the forums,These young people are computer savvy and will believe what

they read,but does it put them off a particular kit? It would be a shame if it did.On the funny side how long before a manufacturer takes someone to court

for kit assassination!

steve

[Mike]

Sadly Mark, some folks seem to take pleasure in rubbishing kits on the most tenuous evidence even before the kit is released. Maybe it's to garner some kind of internet kudos for being the first one to "point out" any faults (actual or perceived), or maybe they're just so anal that they can't see the back of their own teeth?

Whatever the reason, they seem to enjoy the storms in teacups that they create. Whether they're doing it for their own dubious pleasure, or doing it to rubbish a competitor's product, I don't know. I understand that "corporate espionage" is on the increase on the web, with fake people presenting fake points of view to cast doubt on other companies' goods, so why should modelling be any different? I've already seen this with at least one company where someone was bulling up their own products without disclosing their allegiance.

However, if we were to shut down any topic criticising a kit before release, we'd be accused of censorship, and that we'd been bought by X company, so we're in a no win situation to a great extent. We also know the main protagonists, and keep an eye on them, but when a thread is polite and respectful to other members, we're hard-pushed to shut it down for any valid reasons.

As an aside to the recent "the sky is falling in" thread about the decal sheet for the forthcoming Eduard Spit, it strikes me as amusing that the rest of the kit was called into question because of an apparent decal error. Are we not aware that almost every product in our hobby is a product of a group of people? A guy does the decals (and even they're fallible), a group of guys do the CAD, someone else does the boxart (and they might not be experts on that particular type), and so on. It's funny how even someone within the industry can conveniently forget that fact when it suits them

[Parabat]

Hear hear!

[Tiger331]

Sadly Mark, some folks seem to take pleasure in rubbishing kits on the most tenuous evidence even before the kit is released. Maybe it's to garner some kind of internet kudos for being the first one to "point out" any faults (actual or perceived), or maybe they're just so anal that they can't see the back of their own teeth?

Whatever the reason, they seem to enjoy the storms in teacups that they create. Whether they're doing it for their own dubious pleasure, or doing it to rubbish a competitor's product, I don't know. I understand that "corporate espionage" is on the increase on the web, with fake people presenting fake points of view to cast doubt on other companies' goods, so why should modelling be any different? I've already seen this with at least one company where someone was bulling up their own products without disclosing their allegiance.

However, if we were to shut down any topic criticising a kit before release, we'd be accused of censorship, and that we'd been bought by X company, so we're in a no win situation to a great extent. We also know the main protagonists, and keep an eye on them, but when a thread is polite and respectful to other members, we're hard-pushed to shut it down for any valid reasons.

As an aside to the recent "the sky is falling in" thread about the decal sheet for the forthcoming Eduard Spit, it strikes me as amusing that the rest of the kit was called into question because of an apparent decal error. Are we not aware that almost every product in our hobby is a product of a group of people? A guy does the decals (and even they're fallible), a group of guys do the CAD, someone else does the boxart (and they might not be experts on that particular type), and so on. It's funny how even someone within the industry can conveniently forget that fact when it suits them

Mike

Thanks for your support.....I am in no way suggesting any kind of censorship....I would not want to see that creeping in either but I do think some individuals need to be reined in on occasion for going over the top with their thread/thoughts....otherwise, as others have said, many including the young and influential are going to get 'put off' the hobby which we are all (well most of us anyway) striving to promote.

Cheers

Mark

[gcn]

An alternate view perhaps.

This is an internet forum whose whole point of being is discussion of modelling related topics and if you water that down to such a degree you end up with a rather vanilla state of affairs cluttered with "lovely job" posts.

It's not one big happy family and somewhere out of all the members there will be differing personalities and clashes of opinion and that is what helps mould the forum into what it is.

Perhaps the OP to the Spitfire decals thread was being a little playful with the use of some of his language but the rest of the thread from what I remembered refrained from any frothing of the mouth posts until it got personal. I also think Eduard are putting their head up to be shot at with all the hype they have generated over this kit but there's no such thing as bad publicity, apparently.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out something you feel is not right with what you have seen on advanced shots of kits, everyone knows what caveats need to be applied and if people didn't reply the thread withers on the vine pretty quickly. I have to say I'd much rather read one of these threads because you can learn much more from them compared to reading "nice job" for the 10,000th time.

My 2c, IMO, etc, etc

[Test Graham]

gcn: Agreed wholeheartedly.

Mark: Censorship is exactly what you are suggesting. You are doing it very politely, but you are requesting that people do not post about what they see as faults. For fear of what? Upsetting some poor delicate souls who cannot cope with different opinions existing in the world? I think you grossly underestimate the moral strength of the membership.

[cngaero]

Well said Mark, I couldn't agree more.

If a kit has any imperfections could we not just use our modelling skills to rectify the problem. If it offends the would be buyer, just don't buy it. On a personal level, if I need any particular aircraft in my collection, I'll buy it, modify it if necessary and enjoy the end result so much more as a result. We are in danger of going down the "shake and bake" road otherwise.

Cheers.

[RNoAF Aerobatic Team]

Mark.

I could not agree more.

There is some members in my opinion that their only goal is to stirr up something. And the result is that some members have been offended and left the forums.

Cheers

Ørjan

[Andrew Jones]

Well said Mark , beats me how anyone can make informed comment without having handled a kit first. OK , maybe photos can suggest a problem , but I think there are too many variables to be definative without an inspection of the actual kit. Lets have less speculation and more threads like JKT's Vampire comparison please.

Andrew

[Giorgio N]

As long as the discussion is polite, I don't see why there should be a problem in reading of issues that some have identified in future issues thanks to the analysis of pictures or CAD drawings. There are a number of people here who have a vast knowledge of a number of subjects, I trust their judgement in seeing things from a picture more than I trust the judgement of someone who does not know the subject but has the kit in her/his hands !

Actually with the more and more widespread use of CAD as a design tool, it would be way better to be able to see these drawings and if required point out errors so that the designer can correct them before the moulds are cut ! It would result in less problems being found on the plastic parts, with more satisfaction for every party involved (although it will never happen for a number of reasons...)

Besides, if anyone does not like certain types of threads, that same person has the choice of not reading them !

[Abacus]

To be fair, like said before, it is often quite entertaining to see people quite upset about minutiae. However, their passion is to be admired and their expertise, even more so. Ours, beyond forums and occasional meets, is a solitary hobby.,The knowledge acquired is usually retained with no outlet. (The look of the beloved when trying to discuss the varies angles of the wobbling rods on a MkXII) Imagine the delight when a model is produced in that particular area of expertise. No doubt the expert has to be restrained at the opportunity to display their adroitness to the world of their beloved subject.

Big enough place for us all I reckon, without getting too "het" up. Aidan

[Tiger331]

An alternate view perhaps.

This is an internet forum whose whole point of being is discussion of modelling related topics and if you water that down to such a degree you end up with a rather vanilla state of affairs cluttered with "lovely job" posts.

It's not one big happy family and somewhere out of all the members there will be differing personalities and clashes of opinion and that is what helps mould the forum into what it is.

Perhaps the OP to the Spitfire decals thread was being a little playful with the use of some of his language but the rest of the thread from what I remembered refrained from any frothing of the mouth posts until it got personal. I also think Eduard are putting their head up to be shot at with all the hype they have generated over this kit but there's no such thing as bad publicity, apparently.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out something you feel is not right with what you have seen on advanced shots of kits, everyone knows what caveats need to be applied and if people didn't reply the thread withers on the vine pretty quickly. I have to say I'd much rather read one of these threads because you can learn much more from them compared to reading "nice job" for the 10,000th time.

My 2c, IMO, etc, etc

gcn

In no way am I suggesting a 'sugar coated vanilla topping' state of affairs or censorship....I, like most others I suspect, am quite happy with objective criticism where it is warranted since it will help us all to make an informed decision about the relative merits or otherwise of a particular product. As I said before, why make such 'informed comment' prior to seeing the actual product ?. I see no purpose in this unless one is looking to gain some kind of perverted 'one upmanship', as others have suggested in this thread. I'm all for a healthy (if sometimes unnecessarily heated) debate on a particular subject or product since this is the whole purpose of the forums but let's keep it to those issues we can actually be authoritative about, not something that has yet to reach the light of day and may be corrected before it hits the shelves.

Mark

[Filler]

I’m as ever a fence sitter, anything for a quiet life but, I am with those who aren’t too upset by the opinions. Yes, it can come across as a bit moany and complaining all the time, so it isn’t always nice reading but, it does provide good reference for us all when researching a kits merits. You just have to let the more vitriolic stuff go by like water off a duck’s back.

The thing that always amazes me in my admittedly limited period of keen interest in this hobby, is that there appears to be no such thing as a faultless model kit. And so a lot of these discussions about the profile of a Mirage’s nose being a bit off seem a bit like me continually complaining about the lack of clear blue skies and 30 odd degree temperature days in Manchester. As much as I’d like that kind of climate, it just isn’t going to happen. Never has, never will so you just have to accept these things. Point it out sure, but give yourself a coronary about it, why bother?

[thx6667]

Mark: Censorship is exactly what you are suggesting. You are doing it very politely, but you are requesting that people do not post about what they see as faults. For fear of what? Upsetting some poor delicate souls who cannot cope with different opinions existing in the world? I think you grossly underestimate the moral strength of the membership.

Except it isn't censorship. Its about proper, informed critiquing instead of people rushing to their computers to mash away at keyboards in order to have their little five minutes in the spotlight. They don't really have anything constructive to say, but boy, they're gonna say it loud enough. And for the most part these armchair experts, who also tend to have scathing things to say about other modellers, display absolutely zero ability to do anything modelling related other than talk, talk, talk. After a while you tend to zone out a bit because its not constructive, its just utter tedium, verbal white noise.

Cue the usual cod moralising about "well if people don't want to read criticism"... as if somehow they are the moral guardians of what is right and true. Yeah, I want to read criticism, if someone is going to tell me a kit has issuea, I want them to have it in hand so I can ask them questions about it, not just looking at screen and telling what they think they can see. And if I'm going to be lectured on something I don't perceive to be that much of an issue because I have the skills or attitude to deal with stuff that takes less time to fix than clogging up a forum whinging about it, then I'll take it from someone who makes models, not theoretical bores who can talk the talk but then flap around with all manner of weak excuses as to why they never seem able to present a completed model to show for their expertise.

Yeah, the thing I liked about BM when it started out was it didn't have the kind of torch-mob mentality of other places where kits get crucified before anyone's even held plastic. And guess what, for the most past when that kind of detritus does wash up on BM's shore, its because its largely the same folk dragging it with them thinking they'll find the same ready audience here.

So its not about censorship, its about the kind of objective, honest and accurate critiquing that I'm sure we all want, but in order to have that it has be qualified and quantified. We don't want censorship, we don't need it, perhaps this kind of stuff is best dealt with by being highlighted and called out when it happens. And if it means upsetting poor delicate souls who can't handle having their remote, screen-squinting expertise questioned, well then cry me a river. Perhaps to spare the hassle, we should all just say nothing and post this:

Edited March 28, 2013 by Jonathan Mock

[camper1]

Why cant we accept that the manufacturer has done 90% plus of the work for us.How many of us tinker and buy resin parts sometimes costing more than the kit itself in the name of improvement.Some kits might not be to the buyers liking but many are perfectly presentable and still some of us will still spend money on resin parts.My opinion FWIW is if it looks a close representation its good enough if your not happy with improve it after all its called modelling.

Ian

[Arachnid]

Fair play Jonathan,

half the faults on new kits have been caused by "experts" saying things like "the profile of this kit 1/1200 scale would be this that and the other etc.......................At the end of the day to quote Mark from Parabellum..............."It's only a plastic kit, it's not the end of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry

[Seahawk]

I'm on the fence. I was rather shocked if not completely bemused at the initial tide of negativity that seemed to greet the appearance of the Airfix Vampire: did they have the same kit as I did? I would be disappointed if B-M became a mere arena where new kits were torn apart by the self-appointed lions.

In any forum - work, pub, model club, internet forum - it takes a while to work out who has the brilliant insights and who are the total prats. I expect we all have our lists of who's in which category (and, because we're all different, I expect no two lists will be the same). If you think x is an anally retentive prat, don't read his posts. Simples!

Where I come down off the fence and start reaching for my revolver, if not my bayonet, is when the "Only those who have purchased, built and exhibited a model are permitted to express a view on it" lobby comes out. I don't want to, say, spend nearly £30 on a Cyberhobby Sea Venom only to discover too late that it's a complete pile of poo and, to save myself from that fate, I'm prepared to listen/read anyone's views, relying on my highly-tuned prat filter to discard comments from those contributors for whose views I have developed less respect.

[ancient mariner]

Let them have their moment in the spotlight. What does it cost? I really doubt that anyone would leave the Forum because of it and I must admit I find some of the post amusing ( in a sad shake of the head sort of way)

That said my personal take on the hobby (build O.O.B .and build what I want) is not to everyones taste.However I do find that I have a huge selection of subjects that are accurate enough for me readily available . Decal accuracy can be annoying but there again I usually bin the box decals anyway.

Enjoy the hobby "your" way,take what you will and give back what you can and let the self important so and so's wither on the vine.

ps Im English but you may not know from my spelling

[AnonymousAA72]

Opinions are like...erm...well like opinions, everyone has them, and as this is a forum for discussing modelling related issues, opinions will appear here. Some we'll agree with and some we won't. Thats life!

I don't expect anyone to agree with my opinions, but I do expect the courtesy of being able to express them.

Now , as its been mentioned here, my opinion on Airfix's otherwise superb little Vampire kit is that the panel lines are far too deep (i'm dealing with that issue now -with F-I-L-L-E-R) now some may well disagree with my opinion, but how the hell does my opinion upset anyone else? The keypad is indeed mightier than the sword? The power!! Sheesh!!

[Seahawk]

Enjoy the hobby "your" way,take what you will and give back what you can and let the self important so and so's wither on the vine.

Exactly. Beautifully put.

[JohnT]

Interesting thread.

Personally I find it odd that anyone might expect that a £20-30 plastic kit (that's partly aimed at kids and the toy market whatever we might like to think ourselves) should be an absolutely 100% accurate representation of the real thing. Not at that price it won't be.

There are decided court cases that state that even when purchasing a modern expensive car the consumer can not expect near perfection. There will be flaws. Its part of the manufacturing process for mass produced goods. Same goes for kits too. They are made to a budget and depending on manufacturer there will be compromises in the design and production process resulting in less than perfection out of the box when we open it.

Once one accepts that is going to be the case then there is no harm in anyone pointing those issues out to those modellers like myself who may not pick up on the problems that a kit has. I prefer to read about what the problem is and more importantly how the writer suggests the problem is addressed and fixed. Some fixes are simple and improve things. Some that are not easily fixed will get after market solutions. Others might require some home spun ingenuity and modelling skill on a DIY basis.

I think what Mark is saying (apologies if I am miss-representing you Mark! ) is that its how its being said and not what is being said. At work I tell the junior trainees if something/someone really "p"s you off then write that e-mail straight away but save it to drafts, go home and play with the kids, do a model, have a pint, walk the dog, whatever but do some chill stuff and come back tomorrow and re-read what you were about to send out. Nine times out of ten you will cringe and edit, then start again and rewrite the whole damn thing. And yes, there are people who will edit and actually make it worse than before

One thing I would say is that when things get personal on threads here I tend to stop reading them. I just can't be bothered with it. I have too many clients in my work with real problems - not just whether - as Mike has so eloquently put it - the sky is falling in over 2mms of plastic, a colour shade or whatever. Also when I stop to think about it those threads that the Mods have closed over the nature of the posts have tended not to be informative or helpful to the likes of myself.

Lastly we should all remember that when we post the Mods have to read it and then try and referee the ensuing debate to ensure that we all don't self nominate ourselves for time on the naughty step, so can I make a plea that we should all try and make their lives a tad easier? The Press won't self regulate but we grown ups should be able to.

John

PS - I know that I don't display my efforts because they are crap and I know it but I do enjoy what time I have with them as well as the vast majority of well informed and extremely helpful guys posts on this site which do make my feeble efforts more satisfying if not actually any better

[AnonymousAA72]

Additionally....the original post refers to these threads being amongst the culpirts.... ... " Trumpeter 1:48 DH Vampire story, Kittyhawk 1:48 Mirage F.1B accuracy, Trumpeter 1:48 HU-16 Albatross box art (!) issue and most recently this ridiculous thread on the Eduard 1:48 Spitfire IX decal sheets all point towards an emerging trend which I, for one, do not like. Don't get me wrong....once a kit is released................."

Now, I know little about the Mirage, BUT I have read the threads on the others. Now I have to say that probably the daftest thing I ever read on this or any website ever was the comments made about the ship sinking the wrong way iin the Albatross art work - but it did make me laugh!

As for the others.......comments made about the Trumpeter Vampire looking inaccurate were proved to be correct. So hats off to anyone that dared to criticise this kit before it was issued in this instance!

As for Eduard's Spitfire//IF this comment is aimed at an inaccurately proportioned wing roundel, well, if the roundel is proportioned inaccurately then this criticism is valid as well.

As a result of these threads I now know that I won't be wasting any cash on the Trumpeter Vampire. I also know that I can use alternative decals on my Spitfire IX. I know this because of this 'emerging trend', so I for one am grateful.

Just the other side of the coin!!