jonbru1 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Great to see you back, Rob! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Cheers Jon it's good to be back. I know it's more same old for me I am hooked on these things. Cheers Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Good to see you back at the coal face Rob, looking forward to more Avro action! John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Good to see you back at the coal face Rob, looking forward to more Avro action! John Haha back at the coal face I like that one John that's good description of doing this B1 conversions with the amount of plastic to be removed. I must have a looking at whata happing in the English electric factory. Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 ...aaaaand we're back in business 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 ...aaaaand we're back in business Aye and having fun too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTKC Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Vulcans are adorable, in their own Vulcan-y sort of way. This thread has a lot of them. Therefore, I like this thread. My five year old brother saw me looking at the photos here, he asked me what they were and after I explained he has been running around chanting 'Vulcans, Vulcans, Vulcans!!!' I guess he likes Vulcans too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Haha back at the coal face I like that one John that's good description of doing this B1 conversions with the amount of plastic to be removed. I must have a looking at whata happing in the English electric factory. Cheers Rob English Electric as been busy too, I've just finished my Ice Queen project, in the ready for inspection. Are you off to Huddersfield this Sunday? http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234975867-the-ice-queen-cometh/ John Edited February 12, 2015 by canberra kid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomoshenko Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Glad to see you back at the bench Rob. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Vulcans are adorable, in their own Vulcan-y sort of way. This thread has a lot of them. Therefore, I like this thread. My five year old brother saw me looking at the photos here, he asked me what they were and after I explained he has been running around chanting 'Vulcans, Vulcans, Vulcans!!!' I guess he likes Vulcans too. well that's nice to read, My obsession started seeing the image of a white Vulcan B1 in a ladybird book or something like it, and then I was hooked there on it. I think its because it actually looks like a bird or something ancient and mystical like a stepped pyramid that also adds to its appeal. English Electric as been busy too, I've just finished my Ice Queen project, in the ready for inspection. Are you off to Huddersfield this Sunday? http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234975867-the-ice-queen-cometh/ John Sounds good John I will have to check that out. Sadly I can't do hudds due to getting ready for a gig, Gutted to be honest as I loved hudds last year. So I will see you at Cossie. But I have started to come down with flu anyway so looks like I could not make it anyhow.. Looks like this build could be a repeat of the earlier 2 here that I got ready for Cossie in 2013. Glad to see you back at the bench Rob. Cheers Tomoshenko Its always nice to be at the bench. Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 It's a shame about Huddersfield Rob, but there will always be Cosford! See you there, and I hope you get over your biological attack in time for your Gig, can't have you sounding like Leonard Cohen! John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Aye John it's a shame. I don't sing at gigs but still I hope I get better as I was sick for the last one. I'm sick of being sick I keep picking buggs up all the time since I started teaching in a school, at the start of every term I seem to be surrounded by sniffing kids sneezing everywhere and by the end of term they are excited about half term and I'm sick for it. Hopefully some paint and glue fumes will help clean me out. I best find something to brush with enamel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNoAF Aerobatic Team Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Hopefully some paint and glue fumes will help clean me out. I best find something to brush with enamel Don't forget some good old Whisky. .. might help... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Vulcans look fantastic hard to believe they are thee scale you say, liking them a lot (i did have a 72 scale one as 607 black buck, but during decorating thought it stored well, I hadn't lets say. not happy with myself 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Don't forget some good old Whisky. .. might help... Hi mate, Yes it will be the order of the day later on I am sure.. Vulcans look fantastic hard to believe they are thee scale you say, liking them a lot (i did have a 72 scale one as 607 black buck, but during decorating thought it stored well, I hadn't lets say. not happy with myself They sure do. Yep these are 1/200 which is actually a good size its about the same size as a MK1 Spitfire in 1/72 But these are even smaller since the wings have been cut back so much. Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimrod54 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Aye John it's a shame. I don't sing at gigs but still I hope I get better as I was sick for the last one. I'm sick of being sick I keep picking buggs up all the time since I started teaching in a school, at the start of every term I seem to be surrounded by sniffing kids sneezing everywhere and by the end of term they are excited about half term and I'm sick for it. Hopefully some paint and glue fumes will help clean me out. I best find something to brush with enamel Yep, kids are like that Rob,'orrible little things, full of germs and think nothing of sharing them about. Mrs Nimrod finishes for half-term today and you can bet that she will have come down with something over the weekend. Good to see you back working on two of Mr Chadwick's finest, I'm looking forward to watching your progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Yep, kids are like that Rob,'orrible little things, full of germs and think nothing of sharing them about. Mrs Nimrod finishes for half-term today and you can bet that she will have come down with something over the weekend. Good to see you back working on two of Mr Chadwick's finest, I'm looking forward to watching your progress. Cheers John Sorry I am late getting back to you Its been pretty manic since November Having 2 gigs to play, Being ill twice , Doing my Tax returns then Christmas and New year plus loads of stuff going on for work I have not been on here much at all or doing much modelling but now life has resumed a more balanced pace I am looking forward to cracking on with the many projects I have on the go. I need to get something ready for Cosford show. Not sure what It will be but.. Something and hopefully not another rush to the finish. I think I have had my fill of silly deadlines. For a while.. (tempts fate..) Right then A quick update on this. I am using these little Vulcan’s as a way of furthering my understanding and research into the many differences between Vulcan B1 and B2. I have been spending my whole life doing this and information is very hard to come by. But I now have lots of data on it. The more you look at it they were so different that really the only thing that was the same was the nose section and the tail fin. I cant believe how many things there are they were totally different aircraft. I think its a bit like Lancaster’s and Lincoln’s. The wing shape is something that's always interested me. I have always found when looking at photos there has seemed to be a variation in the width of the tip some seem more slender particularly early aircraft but This could be a trick of the camera. However I think I have found what's going on. I have some A Frog Vulcan which is the only model of B1 ever made. On the box it says made from data given from Avro. How much that can be trusted I cant say but they did a pretty good job of it and the wing angles match my drawings that were made at a later date with info from British Aerospace. I made some drawings of the Frog wing and scaled it to 1/200th I also Scaled it to 1/144TH and Scaled the 1/144th Drawings to 1/200th to compare what was going on and where the differences where. Both agreed that the wing leading edge angles are 40 degrees inboard, 53 degrees mid, 45 degrees outer. But then I considered something that I had not before. On converting the many B1s I have I have always thought that the wing tip looks too wide and not sleek enough despite it being quite square on the B1. It is well known that the B2 has totally different angles of the leading edge and span that is much greater but the trailing edge is also different. on the B2 it has a kink too that sweeps back further from about mid way. And the common thinking is that the inner angle is the same as the B2 at 95 degrees. But the Frog kit has this set to 93 Degrees I made many templates and I have 3 kits on the go now. They all look like B1s. but the trailing edge being flatter at 93 degrees looks right and its one of those moments when you think, Why did I not see this before.. It is only 2 degrees different but it keeps the angles the same but reduces the tip thickness and I wonder if there was a mod to the trailing edge too. As this would explain why some look wider than others. Again info on this is scarce if available at all and this is where the Frog kit has been helpful. So far I have converted one kit as per the scale drawings which look very accurate. The other is converted to the Frog shape which looks slightly too wide and slightly too shallow at the tip as a result and a hybrid version using the original BAE drawings scaled to 1/200 but with the trailing sweep back altered from 95 to 93 degrees has resulted in a shape that I feel looks cock on. A lot of messing around for most and yes I might be mad as mad prince George off black adder but It has sure been fun and made me very happy. As I can now employ this information when I convert my 1/72 B1 soon for the Bomber Command table. In the mean time however I am going to make these up. I am going to do the Frog shaped one as is and try to make it look like a smaller frog Vulcan and the other 2 will use the hybrid shape or one with the BAE and one with the Hybrid shape for comparison purposes. (Yeah I know I need to see a Psychologist but I am happy in my insanity ) Here are some photos of progress of which I need to do a further update later. I know this is long winded but It serves as good reference for my self for later on. as I have yet more ideas on scratch building a big n, Bigger than 1/72 at a later stage. Here is one of the Many drawings I have been making. This shows the exact shape on the drawings that where made with assistance of BAE and it does look right for a B1 however look at the thickness of the wing tip, Then note the 95 degree sweep back. The tamiya tape marks out what a HUGE difference the 93 degree sweep back makes and gives the B1 its more flat bottomed step pyramid shape as opposed to the B2s Bat-wing appearance. I think this combination gives the best look personally. since I have filed it down to that shape. I could of course be wrong but Looking at photos and holing up the shape it just looks right. I will take some photos later of the trio. Cheers Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimrod54 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I have no doubt that it will also be a good reference for other Vulcan builders too Rob, and don't worry about the delay in replying I am aware that real life sometimes has a habit of getting in the way of hobbies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) I have no doubt that it will also be a good reference for other Vulcan builders too Rob, and don't worry about the delay in replying I am aware that real life sometimes has a habit of getting in the way of hobbies. Cheers John. Well its there to use if anyone should want too. Yes non forum life does whisk you away from time to time. I have been gigging so lots of time playing the guitar etc rather than modelling amongst other things. Right now for the update. From left 2 right is the 3 I am working on at the moment. : Left is the B1 shape as per the BAE Drawings with a 95 Degree sweep back of the trailling edge. The middle is the BAE drawings shape hybrid with the shallower 93 degree sweep back as per the Frog shape scaled down which was apparently done from information and drawings supplied to them by Avro. This has resulted in smaller wing tips and I think looks the most accurate. The one on the Right is the actual FROG shape scaled down which has the same angles as the other too of 40,53,45 Degrees but a slightly shorter wing root length resulting in slightly more accentuated curves and smaller wing tips. Here is a comparison of the Plan forms of the BAE drawings on the left and the BAE Frog Hybrid Right with the 93 Degree sweep back as apposed to the 95 degree sweep back. Both look right to my eye as I have often noticed some B1s earlier ones appeared to have narrower tips and later ones wider tips, this is not including the B1a which was different again. But I think this could explain it if they every altered the trailing edge too. Information is scarce as they where scrapped early on when still in front line use. I can only trust my eyes but I know that is not evidence but it is interesting to see these shapes. Personally I think the Hybrid on the right looks better as the trialling edge is flatter which looks more B1 to me. The sweep back on the other looks a little to steep to me. Id be interested know what you think. Here is the FROG shape left and the Hybrid BAE/FROG shape right. I also did some work on the intakes. This is the Frog one which I am working on 1st. I have not opted to Narrow these ones but I did correct the outer lip near the wing root which has an unusual sloped feature which is not right at all. Not a big deal but I wanted to try and improve it here. For comparison is the normal kit offering on my B2 XL321 bellow. For those who want to see the FROG Shape VS the more commonly seen B2 shape this is the different.. A lot of difference. So now its back to the glue and files. Cheers Rob Edited March 3, 2015 by robvulcan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Do you want the address of my analyst Rob ?...he deals with things like this !, (mind you he's off seeing another analyst at the moment so may not be the best choice0. I do wish Avro had stopped messing around with the angle of the wingtips, couldn't they have just stuck with one and been happy with it ! Seriously this is what research is all about, I'm just as bad/mad, as you well know........love it and hopefully we will end up with a definitive B.1.............or not ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Do you want the address of my analyst Rob ?...he deals with things like this !, (mind you he's off seeing another analyst at the moment so may not be the best choice0. I do wish Avro had stopped messing around with the angle of the wingtips, couldn't they have just stuck with one and been happy with it ! Seriously this is what research is all about, I'm just as bad/mad, as you well know........love it and hopefully we will end up with a definitive B.1.............or not ! HAHA Great I think we would drive most Psychologists nuts anyhow. So do you think there is something in it. I must watch back the DVD with the Avro boys disusing on the early films they made about the development of the Vulcan wing I am sure now they might have mentioned the sweep back of the trialling edge too but it had previously past me by and not clicked as most the time we focus on the obvious being the leading edge. It never occurred before that the Trialling edge might have been modded too. The more I look at it this explains what I have been seeing in them. Its amazing how a small detail can make you aware of an overall look but you cant put your finger on it, Then when you do its like a "Ah I see now moment" Either way they all look like B1s and I am doing this (heres the excuse) so I can achieve the Best possible outcome on my 1/72 B1 when I get around to it. I want to see if the Airfix kit has an initial trailing edge of 95 or 93 degrees before the sweep back of the B2 trialling edge extension as this would also explain why the Flightpath conversion seems to result in chunky wing tips. Ill make some 1/72 drawings up soon. As for Definitive I don't know but you can try I think half the fun is working it all out as the real thing is extincts it adds to the Mystique of it. ( Oh how I wish that was not the case though ) Right off to work now. Cheers Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Swindell Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Excellent observations there Rob, but you're confusing the hell out of me with your terminology. Wing sweep angles are traditionally given relative to a datum 90 degrees to the aircraft centreline, ie max wing sweep angle is 90 degrees, parallel to the centreline. Without measuring the actual angles, I think you're trying to tell us that the B1 trailing edge sweep is 3 degrees, and the B2 trailing edge is 3 degrees inboard, changing to 5 degrees outboard. The Flightpath B1 conversion set I have clearly shows the removal of this section of trailing edge in the instructions 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Excellent observations there Rob, but you're confusing the hell out of me with your terminology. Wing sweep angles are traditionally given relative to a datum 90 degrees to the aircraft centreline, ie max wing sweep angle is 90 degrees, parallel to the centreline. Without measuring the actual angles, I think you're trying to tell us that the B1 trailing edge sweep is 3 degrees, and the B2 trailing edge is 3 degrees inboard, changing to 5 degrees outboard. The Flightpath B1 conversion set I have clearly shows the removal of this section of trailing edge in the instructions My terminology likley is way off as I'm not well up on the technical terms. Or established methods I'll do some pictures explaining where and how I'm measuring from. I also need to check angles from various sources Incase there are discrepancies. The flight path kit does say that yep I'm on about another angle variant ( possible ) that the frog kit has thrown up not accounting for the B2 trailing edge kink, as when adjusted it makes the plan form look more like the real think to me. Then that's part the fun of doing these 3 to try and find out what looks best. I've not had chance to measure up the 1/72 kit yet and compare what's going on with other reference material. All good fun this Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 I have been doing a little work on one of these. I am cracking on with the FROG shaped version at the moment. I have improved the outer sides of the intakes. glued the intakes and fuselage together, Fitted the canopy, reduced the exhausts, made up a form for the tail cone which I will add milliput too. Cut off all the boxes and other bits and pieces from the engine tunnels, Started to profile and thin out the wing edges, Removed the TFR Thimble, Removed the belly detail, Removed the Skybolt attachments, Removed the under wing strengthening plates. Now then where has that Straight Jacket and muzzle gone. Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNoAF Aerobatic Team Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 You are a machine;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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