chaddy Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere on the forum: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-21812863 The Crown Prosecution Service will review the death of a Red Arrows pilot who died after he ejected from his cockpit while on the ground in Lincolnshire in 2011. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Can't comment on the position in England but had this accident taken place in Scotland then the Procurator Fiscal would require there to be a Fatal Accident Enquiry in the Sheriff Court (think County Court) as routine where there has been a fatal accident in the workplace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeley Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I'd heard that the MOD had basically shut down any investigation at the time because it happened on MOD land. I'm not sure how it works with the civvy police getting involved - do they have any jurisdiction over incidents on MOD property? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Crown indemnity springs to mind, although there will be an inquiry I'm sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Crown indemnity was abolished several years ago. Standby for some senior officers developing steeply sloping shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghb180658 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I'd heard that the MOD had basically shut down any investigation at the time because it happened on MOD land. I'm not sure how it works with the civvy police getting involved - do they have any jurisdiction over incidents on MOD property? Chris Put simply the Police have primacy and jurisdiction regardless of whether it is MOD property or not. As the article says Lincs Police have handed a file to the CPS so the suggestion that MOD shut down an investigation I'm afraid is ill informed, albeit popular, MOD bashing. It is the outcome of the inquiry, and once the CPS decide what action, if any, it will in due course pass to the Coroner. While we are at it, on what basis is the suggestion that senior officers will develop sloping shoulders? Fact or an easy cheap jibe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeley Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 the suggestion that MOD shut down an investigation I'm afraid is ill informed, albeit popular, MOD bashing. I'm sorry ghb180658 if you think I'm MOD bashing, but I was simply stating what I'd heard, hence my follow up question. I don't have an axe to grind, or any agenda here, just curiosity about the situation. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkkeeper Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 the military enquiry hasn't found the cause of the incident, the only person who knows what exactly happened is sadly no longer with us. As I work on current in service Hawks we have seen a copy of the enquiry & haven't figured what the exact cause of the ejection was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvr6 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 the military enquiry hasn't found the cause of the incident, the only person who knows what exactly happened is sadly no longer with us. As I work on current in service Hawks we have seen a copy of the enquiry & haven't figured what the exact cause of the ejection was. why are they cleared to fly again without knowing what caused the incident? i thought that was a no no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkkeeper Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 no faults with the actual airframe & ejection seats were found, so there was no reason to keep the fleet grounded, some procedures were tightened up & rebriefed, but to keep the fleet grounde from the day of the incident to the end of this upcoming CPS enquiry isn't practiable, the aircraft still need day to day maintenance as thier life is run by flying hours & the calender which never stops.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Can't comment on the position in England but had this accident taken place in Scotland then the Procurator Fiscal would require there to be a Fatal Accident Enquiry in the Sheriff Court (think County Court) as routine where there has been a fatal accident in the workplace The equivalent in England, would be a Coroner's inquest - no doubt there will be one in due course (Usually inquests are opened and adjourned whilst criminal enquiries continue). The Police report to the CPS may indicate no criminal charges are due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvr6 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 no faults with the actual airframe & ejection seats were found, so there was no reason to keep the fleet grounded, some procedures were tightened up & rebriefed, but to keep the fleet grounde from the day of the incident to the end of this upcoming CPS enquiry isn't practiable, the aircraft still need day to day maintenance as thier life is run by flying hours & the calender which never stops.. so they reckon he ejected then? do they know why his chute didnt open or is that why theres an investigation going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkkeeper Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 seat had definitly operated the chute drogue was out of the headbox, but insufficient height was gained so main chute didn't have enought time to fully deploy., the marshaller who was due to see the a/c off chocks was also injured by parts of the canopy transparency as the mdc cord operated. the only thing found was the chute shackle was still attached to chute & seat, the scissor couldn't open because the bolt/nut was far to tight, therefore clamping the scissors & preventing it from opening, all other seats during the enforced grounding weere checked & the shackle bolt/nut replaced with new items & a set torque loading was introduced, after this was done on every in use a/c they were released to fly again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvr6 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 seat had definitly operated the chute drogue was out of the headbox, but insufficient height was gained so main chute didn't have enought time to fully deploy., the marshaller who was due to see the a/c off chocks was also injured by parts of the canopy transparency as the mdc cord operated. the only thing found was the chute shackle was still attached to chute & seat, the scissor couldn't open because the bolt/nut was far to tight, therefore clamping the scissors & preventing it from opening, all other seats during the enforced grounding weere checked & the shackle bolt/nut replaced with new items & a set torque loading was introduced, after this was done on every in use a/c they were released to fly again. christ thats bad! were any other bolts overtightened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkkeeper Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I don't know about the rest of the fleet, only know that our a/c were all OK, just a bolt/nut & torque load to regain the clearance to resume operating. but why the seat in the subject a/c fired I doubt the exact truth/cause will ever be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy wood Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) seat had definitly operated the chute drogue was out of the headbox, but insufficient height was gained so main chute didn't have enought time to fully deploy., the marshaller who was due to see the a/c off chocks was also injured by parts of the canopy transparency as the mdc cord operated. the only thing found was the chute shackle was still attached to chute & seat, the scissor couldn't open because the bolt/nut was far to tight, therefore clamping the scissors & preventing it from opening, all other seats during the enforced grounding weere checked & the shackle bolt/nut replaced with new items & a set torque loading was introduced, after this was done on every in use a/c they were released to fly again. well that explains why a seat designed to be zero zero did'nt work in such conditions Edited March 17, 2013 by andy wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghb180658 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm sorry ghb180658 if you think I'm MOD bashing, but I was simply stating what I'd heard, hence my follow up question. I don't have an axe to grind, or any agenda here, just curiosity about the situation. Chris Chris, I wasn't having a go at you. The fault lies with whoever suggested to you that MOD had shut down any investigation because it was on MOD land. They can't and that comment wherever it came from implies some sort of cover up rather than trying to find out what happened and simply isn't a reflection of what you have to do following an incident like this. The process is quite clear these days (and has been for some time) that any incident like this must effectively be treated as a potential crime scene - just like closing motorways after serious RTAs - and that the (civil) Police have primacy. If there isn't a fatality or other complications then the Police are usually quite happy to hand over to the BoI but they do keep an interest and ultimately there will be a Coroner's inquiry into his death. The BoI process is also meticulous not surprisingly - we had plenty of practice back in the 70s, 80s and 90s. So I read "shutting down investigations" plus the implication that "senior officers" would be "sloping shoulders" as just part of the prevalent tone of comments so often seen which eventually gets my goat. Normally I just sigh and let it pass but my irritation came out in answering your question about Police involvement. Sadly as was eloquently put above the only person who probably knew exactly what happened can't tell us. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnerdad Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 As far as the overtightened bolt is concerned (apparently is was done up as tight as it could go), I can't really comment as to what happened but the RAF know exactly how that aspect of the tragedy happened and why. Strangely enough, the team hurredly got back some of the experienced engineering staff they had been stripped of before the accident, and which had been a major concern to the team for some time. As far as the ejection goes, it is true that perhaps we'll never know. However, the guys on the team have a pretty good idea, something to do with a strap or something similar getting wrapped around the stick, or getting caught on it and when the pilot goes through the control check (full and free movement thing) it could catch and pull on one of the activation linkages (not the handle itself) and instigate an ejection. But as I say, we'll probably never know for sure. It was actually the boss' aircraft too, but he was allocated a different plane that day. It was such a tragedy and obviously people had been flying the jet for some time with a duff seat, but checks and proceedures have been scrutinised and changed to ensure it cannot happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner14 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 (edited) I'm fully with ghb on this, and the pedant said Inquiry, not enquiry... Whilst a tragic accident, it would appear that the CPS have a decision to make re an individual, or individuals, having a case to answer. That would appear to be the bottom liner. That is all. Edited March 24, 2013 by Sundowner14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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