Mustang IVa 65. squadron decals?

[RZP]

Richard,

I'm thinking primarily of some of the exceptions we've seen, where aircraft have features that don't otherwise match the serial.

Can you give an example?

If you're talking about the louvres, this is the point that Terry and I were trying to make. These louvres were applied to some of each of the four Merlin versions used by the RAF (B, C, D, and K), so they are not a feature that distinguishes the Mk. IVa version from the others. There are also many examples of the IVa without them. There are a good number of Mk.IVs (P-51Ds) that were delivered directly from maintenance units to squadrons with the louvres (for instance some with serving with 442 Squadron RCAF eg. KH647, KH659, KH668). And there were many Mustang IIIs with them, of both the B and C version. Movement of panels between aircraft would be an exception rather than the rule I think.

Post edited to tone down late-night crankiness...

Edited February 25, 2013 by RZP

[stevehnz]

Read my lips (or watch my keystrokes): no, it isn't. There are no unique items (for YT-E, at least) on the sheet and as per post 8 there is at least one thing wrong with all of the 14 generic items (6 roundels, 2 fin flashes, 2 serials, 2 squadron codes, 2 individual letters).

Oops, sorry, Nick, thats pretty much what I meant but was unsure if this

aircraft had any special markings. The above profile & photos

showed something to the rear of the cockpit but I think its just the

fuel filler. I'll consider myself growled at.

[Seahawk]

Oops, sorry, Nick, thats pretty much what I meant but was unsure if this

aircraft had any special markings. The above profile & photos

showed something to the rear of the cockpit but I think its just the

fuel filler. I'll consider myself growled at.

No growling coming from here! :-) I was just trying to stop OP wasting his money on a kit with one of the most functionally useless transfer sheets of all time - at least for the RAF option.

And to be 100% accurate you were partly right. I overlooked in one corner of the sheet two red walkway markings and a red fuel filler spot, for use across all 3 marking options. These seem usable but wouldn't, to me, justify splashing out on the kit, especially since the Airfix kit already comes with full stencil markings.

[Seahawk]

This last one also shows the elusive anti-glare shield that was fitted to many RAF Mustangs at some point but quickly disappeared. Evidence of the fitting being removed can be seen often on camouflaged examples where the paint is discoloured. You can see this on the centre photo of the Mustang III (KH466/9G-Y of 441 Squadron RCAF) just above and behind the exhausts.

Those glare shields are a complete revelation to me: I thought they went of out fashion when Spitfires and Hurricane stopped nightfighter sorties. Just as well the post isn't dated 1 April. Is there any more on the story eg why they were felt necessary, on Mustangs alone, so late in the war?

[Paul J]

I find the adding of those anti exhaust glare fittings fascinating too. The rare use of it is probably why its never really been mentioned before(to my knowledge) on the 'quirky' differences on Mustangs. With that photographic proof now, no one can deny the existence or use of it, despite its very limited appearance.

[Paramedic]

No growling coming from here! :-) I was just trying to stop OP wasting his money on a kit with one of the most functionally useless transfer sheets of all time - at least for the RAF option.

And to be 100% accurate you were partly right. I overlooked in one corner of the sheet two red walkway markings and a red fuel filler spot, for use across all 3 marking options. These seem usable but wouldn't, to me, justify splashing out on the kit, especially since the Airfix kit already comes with full stencil markings.

Thanks for the thought. I will fix them in other ways and have a Spare from Airfix for the stencils.

[RZP]

Those glare shields are a complete revelation to me: I thought they went of out fashion when Spitfires and Hurricane stopped nightfighter sorties. Just as well the post isn't dated 1 April. Is there any more on the story eg why they were felt necessary, on Mustangs alone, so late in the war?

Paul and Seahawk

I'm not sure what the intention was, and why Mustangs? I don't think I've seen it on photos of any other aircraft at that point in the war. I wish I could tell you more, and this is the only photo I've ever seen showing it installed. There are many images of Mustang IIIs and IVs (and yes I include the IVa in that) showing the rectangular discolouration just behind and above the exhaust where the shield was removed (I can post a few more if anyone's interested). There was a discussion on the P-51 SIG but no documents or written evidence came to light from some very knowledgeable people there.

It's very odd, especially as you say so late in the war. Clearly the glare shields had to be manufactured somewhere and installation Instructions distributed but nothing has appeared so far. I'll have a look through the ORBs of a couple of Squadrons to see if the diaries have anything to say about night flying etc. You're right though, it doesn't seem to have lasted long and there's obviously very little photographic evidence...except for it having been removed! I might ask my father but at 87 his memory about those kinds of details is fading a bit. Maybe some of the photos will trigger something for him?

Cheers,

Richard

Edited February 25, 2013 by RZP

[RZP]

Harsh or not.. ..thanks for the pics, haven't seen them before and there are a couple of Polish Mustangs in the stash..

Thanks for the heads-up on the louvres as well!

You're welcome! If you're looking for more photos of Polish Mustangs (303, 306, 309, 315 and 316 Squadrons flew them) there are a couple of wonderful websites that have excellent image galleries:

Polish Squadrons Remembered

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/

and Polskie Sily Powietrze

http://www.polishairforce.pl/menuraf.html

The second one is in Polish but if you go to section marked "Galeria zdjec" under each squadron it will lead you to the photos.

Have fun!

Cheers,

Richard

Edited February 25, 2013 by RZP

[FalkeEins]

must mention the AJ Press monograph "Polish Mustang units" here - a superb reference which comes with an A-4 sized decal sheet..

http://falkeeinsmodel.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/polish-mustangs-303-squadron-aj-press.html

Edited February 25, 2013 by FalkeEins

[Paramedic]

Thank you both! I have that superb book! Bought my first Polish-designated Mustang III today. Not sure which decals I´ll be using though. Horbaczewski is really interesting but not uncommon it seems (both in Tamiya´s and Academy´s 1:48 and 1:72-kits it seems!)

I have studied a little Polish, have one close Polish friend and my brother is married to another so I think I´ll manage.. However, those two don´t know Horbaczewski´s nickname so you can help me with that if you want to (Dziubek). I know it says "darling" or "kid" in "Polish Aces..." (Osprey) but is there more meaning in it..?

Anyways, I am sure there will be a 65. Squadron Mustang IVa as well as a bunch of Polish ones - I have soo many decals for them and hate to let them go to waste.

[rav]

Horbaczewski is really interesting but not uncommon it seems (both in Tamiya´s and Academy´s 1:48 and 1:72-kits it seems!)

...and both have many errors in theirs decals and instructions.

However, those two don´t know Horbaczewski´s nickname so you can help me with that if you want to (Dziubek). I know it says "darling" or "kid" in "Polish Aces..." (Osprey) but is there more meaning in it..?

Literally it is the diminutive of 'the beak', as Wikipedia says. I don't know why he was called this way. BTW, 'the beak' (nose of a bird, an aircraft or a ship) is 'dziób' in Polish, and diminutive is 'dzióbek' or 'dziobek', so 'dziubek' is a misspelling (pronounciation of 'dzióbek' and 'dziubek' is the same). However, for unknown reason, Horbaczewski's nickname is written in the 'incorrect' form.

a bunch of Polish ones - I have soo many decals for them and hate to let them go to waste.

I support this idea (four Polish Mustangs completed and at least three to be done, all in 1/72).

[Paramedic]

But those from "Polish Mustangs" are (more) correct, right?

My brothers wife said so too (beak) but since that Osprey book said "darling" and "kid" I got confused.. Thanks for that!

Nice! Have you posted pics?

[rav]

But those from "Polish Mustangs" are (more) correct, right?

Yes, but not free of small errors. For example, take a look at photos of KM112 PD-D. The "D" letters are not the same, you see? But in the decals they are the same. Strange - photos are clear, artwork is correct, and the decals are wrong.

You can use also Techmod decals (they have a few sets for Polish Mustangs) and the ones from Kagero TopColors #1 book.

Nice! Have you posted pics?

Sure. From my website:

20+ years old Polish vacuform. Maybe I should not show it here...

In the 1980s it was not known that there were 3 Horbaczewski's Mustangs coded PK-G. Artworks form that period were mix of three aircraft:

• Serial from FB166, used before June 1944;
• Invasion stripes from FB382;
• Mission and kill markings from FB387, used in August 1944.

Revell with Techmod decals (recommended):

HobbyBoss with out-of-the-box decals (not recommended because of wrong colors and dimensions of markings):

The fourth one is Mustang Mk.I AM214 "C" completed few days ago and not photographed yet. Markings from spare decals (Techmod, Tally-Ho) based on "Polish Mustangs Units" book. Converted P-51 of Academy. I hope to have weather for photos on the weekend.

Planned are: FB382 PK-G, KM112 PD-D and a different Mk.III, not chosen yet (316 Sqn preferred because of red-white noses and fin fillet on some aircraft).

BTW. I used to live (and my parent still live) at Horbaczewski Street in Wroclaw, Poland. Therefore Dziubek is my favourite pilot.

[stevehnz]

I hope no-one will mind if I jump onto this thread drift into Polish Mustang sqns & Mk IIIs. Did any of these squadrons operate Mk IIIs with the fillet on the tail fin like Mk IVs had, slightly different I know but similar to look at. I've an Academy P-51cC with this feature that I'd like to do as an RAF Mustang, preferably with a Malcolm hood. Failing this, what about 112 sqn or 3 sqn RAAF?

Steve.

[rav]

Did any of these squadrons operate Mk IIIs with the fillet on the tail fin like Mk IVs had

Yes, there were a few of them:

[stevehnz]

Hey, thanks Rav, that was quick. Are there any decals out there for these that you know of? Not that they be too hard to cobble together from various sheets I think. I'm good to go on my fillet tailed P-51C now.

Steve.

[rav]

Hey, thanks Rav, that was quick. Are there any decals out there for these that you know of? Not that they be too hard to cobble together from various sheets I think. I'm good to go on my fillet tailed P-51C now. Steve.

In the above mentioned book "Polish Mustang Units" (AJ-Press 2011) you can find decals for KH516 WC-F with fillet and personal emblem of a girl painting names "Barbara, Jurek" (Barbara, George). Decals are in 1/32, 1/48 and 1/72, the aircraft is shown 7 photos and 3-view artwork.

[stevehnz]

Brilliant, I think you might just have sold me a copy of that. OK, you can have the thread back now.

Thanks Rav,

Steve.

[rav]

I think you might just have sold me a copy of that.

No, no, no. I have only one copy. It's my precioussssss...

BTW, part 2 of "Polish Mustang Units" was announced. I don't know what is inside, so I'll keep my Mustang kits intact until I get it.

[RZP]

No, no, no. I have only one copy. It's my precioussssss...

BTW, part 2 of "Polish Mustang Units" was announced. I don't know what is inside, so I'll keep my Mustang kits intact until I get it.

Wow, that's good news about "Part 2"!! I knew they had more material and photos but wasn't sure what they were planning. Where did you see that announcement?

Richard

[RZP]

In the above mentioned book "Polish Mustang Units" (AJ-Press 2011) you can find decals for KH516 WC-F with fillet and personal emblem of a girl painting names "Barbara, Jurek" (Barbara, George). Decals are in 1/32, 1/48 and 1/72, the aircraft is shown 7 photos and 3-view artwork.

I especially like this one because the pilot, Jerzy Mencel, used it to shoot down an Me-262 jet. I would like to do this one in 1/32 scale someday.

Richard

[stevehnz]

Don't worry Rav, not after yours, I've found them at several online book sellers so its all good . Interesting what Richard has said about the Me262, even more reason to model this plane, now I need to find out who Barbara Jurek was & the picture will be complete.

Steve.

[RZP]

Steve,

F/Lt Jerzy Mencel was the pilot of WC-F, and in Polish the diminutive of his name Jerzy is "Jurek". Barbara was the name of Mencel's English girlfriend who was an artist and designed the artwork for his plane. She eventually became his wife.

Richard

[stevehnz]

Double post when edit wouldn't work, see next post.

Edited March 1, 2013 by stevehnz

[stevehnz]

Thanks Richard, this just gets better, now its got a happy ending. Perfect.

Leastwise I hope they lived happily ever after.

Steve.