Choice for a Royal Navy Corsair

[doorgunner]

Hello, I am planning to built a RN Corsair, possibly a Birdcage version, and I am looking for a very interesting example. I would like to reproduce a XDSG/SG/SKY camo scheme a/c, with standard (RAF) roundels. I saw an example with a nose art below the cockpit, but I don't know any other detail, such as serial...or a overall pic.

Someone can give me some 2-3 suggestions for "the right one" please ?

Thanks a lot in advance

[Jim Kiker]

Hi mate,

Nice nose art in the picture you posted. While I am sure the FAA Corsair boffins will be along soon, I think I am correct in saying that the birdcage Corsairs were designated Corsair I's and were only used for training. Vought-built -1A's and -1D's were designated Corsair II, and were painted in an FAA equivalent scheme of Olive Drab, Sea Gray (similar to Dark Sea Grey), and Sky Gray (a pale blue-green-gray meant to look a little like Sky). Corsairs built by other companies got different schemesincluding US Navy Gloss Sea Blue. The scheme for the Corsair II's comes closest to what you have asked about, and makes for an attractive and different combination. Some internet searching for Corsair II's ought to yield some specific information while you wait for the boffins to chime in.

HTH, Jim

[doorgunner]

Hello, I am at the painting stage now and would like to know where I can find a good corsair Mk I camo scheme pattern, please.

Tia ciao Maurizio

[Jennings Heilig]

The Corsair Mk.Is were only used in the US for training, and did not go overseas nor see combat. They had the normal span wings, since they were never aboard RN carriers with their low overheads.

Google "Corsair Mk.I camouflage" and hit "images" and you'll find loads and loads of images.

[Dave Fleming]

Some did make it to the UK - one was tested at Boscombe and there is a fairly well known colour pic of an FAA Corsair I at a UK airfield along with numerous other FAA types.

[stevehnz]

The matter of the Mk Is never leaving the UAS is something I've read often & always accepted until I read "Carrier Pilot" by Norman Hanson in which he says (pp117-118) they did their ADDLs on HMS Illustrious out in the Firth of Clyde in Mk Is. He describes the oleo bounce that was cured in the later Mks & the troubles they had with these. He says they didn't get Mk IIs with "a new & altogether splendid hood." till they reached Ceylon on the way to the far east. If this is as he states, there must therefore have been Mk Is with clipped wingtips to have served on Illustrious. or has this been found to be an error on the authors part previously?

Steve.

[Spitfires Forever]

Those early versions were painted in US equivalent shades for the MAP designated shades.There are numerous threads on this site that will give you more information than you could imagine. After sifting through all the information it seems that you would be fairly safe with olive drab for the slate grey, gunship grey for the EDSG, and light gull grey for the bottom. The exact shade is not Sky type S as used for FAA craft nor exactly the gull grey, it is called sky grey which is a DuPont color. If you want an exact shade (which is difficult to match) Nick Miliman has offered up several examples on his website, but to make things a little less complicated you can go with the colors that have been suggested to me, which I listed above. In regard to the clipped wings on the Corsair I, a few were modified with the clipped wings but most were not because the decision had already been made to use the Mk II with the blown canopy for combat. If you have the aircraft ID you can find out if the version you are doing is with clipped wings or not. Should you decide to clip the wings there are tutorials on this site that can help, it is not difficult. From all I have read, none of the Vought aircraft were painted in official MAP/FAA colors until their arrival in England. The clipped wings and other FAA required modifications were done by a contractor in Baltimore Maryland? Something like that anyway. It has been a bit since I have gone over all this, I am sure someone will be along shortly to hyperlink the previous threads on this site. Either way, you have come to the right site do the information you seek.

Cheers

[Mark Proulx]

FWIW, some birdcage Corsair I did have clipped wing tips verified in photographs.

Mark Proulx

[David H]

My understanding is the clipping of the wing tips was done by Blackburn Aircraft at a satellite facility at Roosevelt Field, Long Island NY. As for the colours, i've tried Gunship Gray and Light Gull Gray and it just looks wrong. I'd like to suggest an alternative:

For the Blue Gray: Mix 9 parts Gunship Gray 36118 to one part flat white, 37875 and when you have a big enough batch mixed up, start adding medium blue until you get a bluish cast that looks right. Make sure to look at the samples outside in daylight.

For the underside gray: Mix 2 parts Light Gray, FS 36495 to one part Flat White, 37875.

As for the Olive Drab, i don't have an opinion, but David Rapasi did not one, but two very nice FAA Corsairs over on Aircraft Resource Center that are worth taking a look at.

I know at least a handful of Corsair Is got to the UK, but how many had clipped wing tips i'm not sure. There is mention in one book of some being deployed to Mcaranish, Scotland, and of course operational training was done in Ballyhebert, NI so its entirely possible some early Corsairs wound up there.

-d-

[stevehnz]

I know at least a handful of Corsair Is got to the UK, but how many had clipped wing tips i'm not sure. There is mention in one book of some being deployed to Mcaranish, Scotland, and of course operational training was done in Ballyhebert, NI so its entirely possible some early Corsairs wound up there.

-d-

David, that is in the book "Carrier Pilot" I mentioned above, when they flew from Machrihanish where they did ADDLs before flying out to the Firth of Clyde to do landings on Illustrious. The book mentions that these were Corsair Mk Is which were retained at least by 1833 RNAS, with which the author flew, until they got to Ceylon when they were swopped for Mk IIs with an improved hood (canopies?) & modified undercarts with less bounce.

Steve.

[Nick Millman]

I think you have to be a little careful with colours on early FAA Corsairs. Personally I don't buy the idea that the undersurfaces were a light gray - the best colour photos at Quonset Point just don't look like that at all unless they are digitally "corrected" and the Temperate Sea scheme requirement was for Sky - hence ANA 610 Sky being designated and retained when it was no longer required for other purposes by the British.

FS 36495 is closer to the Dupont 71-021 Sky Type S Grey than to ANA 610 Sky but is slightly too grey even for that, at best representing a very badly weathered and chalked paint surface. I imagine the addition of white takes it even further away. Light Gull Gray is not like Dupont 71-021 by any stretch of the imagination (DE2000 difference is 8.97) and the fact that it is slightly darker makes it seem an unlikely contender even to represent a weathered airframe. FS 36440 (held to be a reasonable match for Light Gull Grey) is not like 34424 (held to be a reasonable match for Sky/ANA 610).

I do not see why it should be necessary to add any blue to 36118 other than as a personal preference since that is the closest FS colour value to ANA 603 Sea Gray and 26118 is the closest colour to Extra Dark Sea Grey. Whistler (1969) even remarks that ANA 603 seems slightly greyer when compared to 36118.

Nick

[David H]

My understanding was Vought simply applied Olive Drab to the existing camouflage pattern which was blue gray over light aircraft gray. In the forward operating areas the blue gray faded considerably and lightened up, but as originally delivered from the factory had a distinctively bluish cast. However, its an elusive colour and it can take on very different appearances based on lighting. My colour mix for the underside gray also takes into account darkening caused by application of clear coats, dark gray washes, etc. However, if Vought WAS using a rough equivalent for the underside colour and not simply throwing O.D. on the existing paint scheme, thats a different story.

That being said, i am depicting a factory fresh Corsair. I looked at as many colour photos i could find of the early scheme, and after consulting with David Rapasi i took the average. It's over at works in progress.

-d-

Edited March 11, 2013 by David H

[Test Graham]

I've not heard of the use of modified Blue-grey/USN scheme such as you describe. I understand it was simply that Vought were using agreed US substitutes for the correct British colours. The use of ANA colourss appears to be true later in production but the photo at the top of the thread certainly doesn't show Blue-grey, fresh or faded, but is entirely convincing as a somewhat faded EDSG as seen in similar Seafire colour photos. The problem with use of the ANA colours is that British interest in the Corsair preceded their adoption. It is worth noting that the example in the FAA museum was delivered in Sea Blue Gloss but on removal of this paint the tailplanes had the correct Temperate Sea scheme colours.

I'm sure some (many?) will throw their hands up in horror but I'm yet to be convinced that Vought didn't start the production in close US versions of TSS before switching to the ANA colours as stocks ran down.

[Nick Millman]

"Vought simply applied Olive Drab to the existing camouflage pattern which was blue gray over light aircraft gray."

That's an interesting idea and I'd love to see the evidence for it. The earlier blue-grey M-485 was a different colour to ANA 603 Sea Gray and to the ANA Sea Blue which replaced it at the beginning of 1943. M-485 has been matched to FS 35189 according to many sources including Elliot but there are issues with that.

Were the early FAA "birdcage" Corsairs delivered from storage of previously painted US airframes?

Nick

[Test Graham]

No, they were ordered under Contract a(S)172, Requisition No N-1113. All were given BUAer numbers, but they were built in three specific blocks. If delivered from storage they would have been much more random. A similar Contract/Requisition pattern can be seen on other Lend-Lease types such as Wildcats and Hellcats, where specific production blocks were given over to British needs. Lend-Lease required all aircraft to belong to the US Services and thus have BuAer or equivalent identities.

[David H]

"My understanding was Vought simply applied Olive Drab to the existing camouflage pattern which was blue gray over light aircraft gray." (exact quote)

I'm not stating it as fact, but given the struggles Vought was having in ramping up production of the F4U and delivering them to the fleet, the expedient of adding OD on top of the existing paint scheme seems quite logical. Not sure how Brewster handled the issue. And of course, Goodyear didn't start delivering Corsairs til much later.

My info is based on David Rapasi's findings and his educated guesses. Like i said before, he's done two nice F4Us over at Aircraft Resource Center.com that are worth checking out.

-d-

[Steven Eisenman]

"My understanding was Vought simply applied Olive Drab to the existing camouflage pattern which was blue gray over light aircraft gray." (exact quote)

I'm not stating it as fact, but given the struggles Vought was having in ramping up production of the F4U and delivering them to the fleet, the expedient of adding OD on top of the existing paint scheme seems quite logical. Not sure how Brewster handled the issue. And of course, Goodyear didn't start delivering Corsairs til much later.

My info is based on David Rapasi's findings and his educated guesses. Like i said before, he's done two nice F4Us over at Aircraft Resource Center.com that are worth checking out.

-d-

Seriously?

They were specific for the FAA and any resembelance betwee Blue-Gray and the Sea Gray is merely a result of color blindness.

Brewster sent thhe Corsair III off to the FAA in either the same scheme as Vought or the USN "Four-Tone" scheme.

The Corsair IV from Goodyear was in GSB.

What is interesting is that it appears some of the internal parts (wing-fold bulkhead was painted in the Blue-Gray.

[Steven Eisenman]

FWIW, some birdcage Corsair I did have clipped wing tips verified in photographs.

Mark Proulx

Do you have or can point me to a picture of clipped wing Birdcage Corsair? Perhaps a non-Birdcage Mk.I Mk. II used in training?

Here is a Birdcage returned to the UK and repainted in FAA colours.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Steven Eisenman

[Seawinder]

Steven, that's an absolutely stunning photograph. Thanks for posting it! What do you make of the colors on the plane in the foreground (Spitfire? Seafire?)?

Pip

[Mark Proulx]

FWIW, I have a series of four photos of a FAA Corsair I coded 5F photographed with one wing folded. That wing, folded upright clearly reveals the birdcage canopy fitted and squared off wintips.

Mark Proulx

[Spitfires Forever]

Steven, that's an absolutely stunning photograph. Thanks for posting it! What do you make of the colors on the plane in the foreground (Spitfire? Seafire?)?

Pip

The Spit in the foreground sure looks like a MkVb or could be a Spitfire in the process of conversion (hooked Spitfire) who knows? but IMHO the wing has all the earmarks of a Mk Vb/Ib wing, especially with the fairing over the canon and the exterior reinforcement over the wheel wells. Additionally the paint scheme is in RAF colors, not FAA. That is what is so interesting about the photo, the aircraft is out of place, but if it were at an FAA MU in England that might explain it. I am sure someone can enlighten us further.

Cheers

Edited March 12, 2013 by Spitfires Forever

[Nick Millman]

"My understanding was Vought simply applied Olive Drab to the existing camouflage pattern which was blue gray over light aircraft gray." (exact quote)

I'm not stating it as fact, but given the struggles Vought was having in ramping up production of the F4U and delivering them to the fleet, the expedient of adding OD on top of the existing paint scheme seems quite logical. Not sure how Brewster handled the issue. And of course, Goodyear didn't start delivering Corsairs til much later.

My info is based on David Rapasi's findings and his educated guesses. Like i said before, he's done two nice F4Us over at Aircraft Resource Center.com that are worth checking out.

-d-

Yes, I understood that it was your understanding! I was not hostile to the idea but only intrigued by it. The chronology of all this is very interesting.

The tri-colour USN scheme was introduced in February 1943 and the first Corsairs went to the FAA in June of that year. Photographs exist showing early Corsairs in the tri-colour scheme so it was presumably introduced during the production run of that type. It is tempting when looking at these photographs to speculate whether the scheme represents the new Sea Blue applied over the Blue-Gray and Light Gray - a sort of improvised interim scheme.

The ANA colours had been selected by the JAC in July 1942 with a note "that the British Extra Dark Sea Gray be accepted as standard and the Navy proposed Dark Blue and Blue Gray, British Ocean Gray, and Army Neutral Gray, be eliminated. That the name of the Extra Dark Sea Gray be changed to Sea Gray." (my emphasis).

This did not happen as minuted and the USN adopted the Sea Blue (the proposed Dark Blue?) and the tri-colour scheme instead. The first FAA Corsairs were requisitioned from the USN. Leaving aside for the moment the matter of how colour photographs appear (blue grays and grays) the chronology and USN diversion from the JAC recommendations raise interesting questions about how the first FAA Corsairs were actually painted and/or whether they were re-painted post production. Elliot shows three Blue Gray chips of different appearance noting that one represents an "interim color in the preparation of the three tone scheme" and the other "believed to be the correct colour (for Blue Gray) originally intended - not necessarily as used." That chip is a little lighter and bluer than FS 36118...

Nick

[gingerbob]

First off, I'm going to work on that Spit a little- I might just possibly be able to identify it. It IS a 'b' wing, no question about that!

This is a bit of a tangent, but related to the current discussion: Am I right in thinking that the "early" Navy top color, the blue-grey (no caps because I don't remember the official names) is not the same color as the middle blue of the 3 (or 4) tone scheme? I know there's talk, including Nick's post, about an "interim" 3-tone with a dark blue over the existing blue-grey/underside grey. Reason I ask is that imprinted on my brain (with all its foibles) is a color photo of a Hellcat, and my impression of that middle color. When I went to select model paints, what they told me didn't agree with my memory of the Hellcat photo. It now occurs to me that perhaps, just perhaps, that long ago photo was of a Hellcat in the interim or adapted 3-tone scheme? Of course it is also possible that the reproduction was crap, or that my memory is less precise than I appear to think it is...

bob

[Seahawk]

Steven, that's an absolutely stunning photograph. Thanks for posting it! What do you make of the colors on the plane in the foreground (Spitfire? Seafire?)?

Pip

It is a cracking photograph, which is why it gets recycled regularly on fora like this one. For what it's worth, the location is RNAS St Merryn in Cornwall, during WW2 home for various training squadrons teaching tactics and gunnery. ISTR that the consensus last time was that the aircraft in the foreground was a hooked Spitfire in Ocean Grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey. Afraid I don't recall what led to that conclusion.

Edit: here's the last discussion. Maybe I was wrong about the "hooked" bit:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/60674-faa-corsair/?hl=merryn#entry655579

Edited March 12, 2013 by Seahawk

[Giorgio N]

The Spit in the foreground sure looks like a MkVb or could be a Spitfire in the process of conversion (hooked Spitfire) who knows? but IMHO the wing has all the earmarks of a Mk Vb/Ib wing, especially with the fairing over the canon and the exterior reinforcement over the wheel wells. Additionally the paint scheme is in RAF colors, not FAA. That is what is so interesting about the photo, the aircraft is out of place, but if it were at an FAA MU in England that might explain it. I am sure someone can enlighten us further.

Cheers

The FAA used a number of Spitfire V for training so it's not surprising to see a Spitfire like that at an FAA station.