Vac-forms, these days

[Colin W]

Hi

I think there is definitely a place for a vacforming in the future and its great to have John Aero in support. I love vacforms for 3 reasons. Firstly they have a correct scale fuselage thickness so the cockpit and engines etc can be correctly sized in scale with the side walls. Secondly the result is a lot lighter and more manageable than resin when things get bigger. My Aeroclub Vulcan would be even heavier if she was resin!. Thirdly there is a much better sense of satisfaction having completed a vacform and my modelling is all about me.

I did an exercise a few years ago with Glosters jets. This was a simultaneous build of a resin Whittle, an Injection Meteor, and vacform Javelin. Certainly the Javelin was the most fun.

One of my favourite kits of all times was the DH Sea Venom from Aeroclub. Injected fuselage, vac wings, white metal cockpit and UC. Great stuff.

I finished a 1/48 Falcon swift last week and will post it here soon, another cracker.

Colin W

[The wooksta V2.0]

A lot of the older Czech resins - quite a few of the more modern ones too, come to that* - came with resin undercarriage legs. I've a number of Lufwaffe 46 types that have bowed u/c now making them look like they're got Rickets.

*The current crop of CMR ones seem to have them in a darker more rigid resin. The RS Resins kits had the u/c legs reinforced with thick wire.

[Artie]

This is a refreshing post for a change. I have in fact been looking seriously at doing some more Vacs I have a number of patterns Saro London, Valleta etc in 1:72 in the store of subjects which are too big for me to produce injected without a multi component breakdown.

For instance my Saro London fuselage is no problem in Vac but is a pain to mould injected and in resin it puts quids on the cost.

Vacforms are easy to produce but detail parts need to be in other media such as metal ,injected or resin. The so called multimedia kits, I popularised this in the early eighties with my own range kits and supplying parts to most other small UK companies. The cost of kit production depends on the the amount of mould material and cost of the masters and whether these are contracted out or not. I have used my good friend Brian for some of the patterns in the past but I have done my own (and all of the mould work) for most of the range and all the conversions and accessories. A vac mould will produce multiple hundreds and a resin mould 25 to 30 and a short run Injected mould 100 to a 1000

It's great doing work for modellers but there's nothing worse that listening to the defeatist approach of many so called modellers. "Cor my favourite plane, Oh it's a vacform"!

Vacforms are easy providing basic rules are followed and the kit patterns and construction is of good quality.

So is there a market?

John

Well, IMHO, YES, there's still a market for vacform kits. Isn't there a market for a Morgan 4/4...?? Not everybody likes to drive a Hyndai Accent....

I've been a modeller for 35 years now, and maybe due to the "diehard" inside of me that I prefer building a good old vacuformed kit of a not often seen subject than building a mass produced current kit. Not any pleasure found in building the same kit as five thousand modellers have already built...

Best regards...

[Giorgio N]

John

I discussed the same "is there a market for vacforms" question a couple of months ago with a few modellers and people involved in aftermarket, and while I pushed my idea that for larger size models Vacforms still have a place, their opinion was quite different and along these lines: both vacforms and resin kits usually reproduce lesser known subjects that appeal a smaller number of modellers who have no problem in working on a more difficutl or more expensive kit. Vacforms are more difficult, resin more expensive (roughly speaking...). However with vacforms it's not possible to reproduce the same level of details that can be done in resin kits. Now internal details and other things can be done in resin/white metal and added to a vacform shell however resin kits also allow a level of surface detail that can't be achieved with vacforms. Therefore many of those modellers who would be interested in these subjects would rather spend more for a resin kit than buy a vacform kit that would require much more work to achieve the same level on the finished model. As a vacform kit wouldn't be that cheap anyway, it would be difficult to attract modellers that can't afford a full resin kit: the modeller that can spend say £100 for a 1/72 vacformed airliner, can afford to spend £200 for the same subject in resin. At the same time, many of the modellers who wouldn't spend the £200 for the resin kit would hardly spend more than £50 on a kit.

There would still be a market niche for vacform and this would include modellers that for a reason or the other don't like working with resin, modellers who just like Vacs and those few who would spend £100 but not £200 (again, these figures are just thrown in as an example).

Personally I'm still convinced that vacforms have a room and also that for larger models a vacform fuselage is better than a resin one for many reasons: weight, less problems with casting defects, no distortion... but I can see well the points raised by those I talked to.

So is there a market ? I'm sure there is, the matter is how large is this market and how the size of the market can support the issue of new vacform kits from a manufacturer like you.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Giorgio N

[kev67]

There is one name that I keep seeing, Jim Lund, I have not seen his models in the flesh, but he seems a prolific modeler especially vacform kits.

My honest opinion I think vacform models are much better than resin, for one thing its is easier to detail the interior and have open panels and doors as the plastic is thinner and more to scale, I'm not a great fan of Welsh models vac and resin approach as I have found these to mediums especially large areas such as resin wings attached to vacform body don't adhere well as with vacform models, and the warpage is another factor, although this can be corrected with hot water

[tomprobert]

I personally love vacforms and always find myself being drawn back to them.

I personally find the 'too expensive' tag for vacs a little unfair; when you look at it in terms of hours spent building one I think they provide great value for money - far better than an injection kit anyway!

Take Sanger's 1/48th Shackletons for example. They are larger than a Lancaster, and retail around the £30 mark. When you consider a Tamiya Lancaster will set you back well in excess of £60, the equivalent vacform is far better value. I built a Tamiya Lancaster in about a month, whilst a Sanger Shackleton took me about 4 months from start to finish. That to me is far better value for money, considering it was half the price in the first place!

Sanger is also planning to release a 1/48th Vulcan, which I believe will retail around £50. Can you imagine the price if it was to be injection molded? Even with Airfix's reasonable retailing I cannot see an injection kit of this size being under £80 - £100.

I also like use the 1/32nd ID (now Tigger) Lancaster as an example: John will sell you one of £75. When I built mine, it took me around 600 hours. If my maths is correct, that's 0.125p per hour... try and beat that HK Models!

I'd love to see new vacs released - Sanger and Welsh are the only two manufacturers that I can think of still doing them and I think there would plenty of room in the market place. It's just a case of persuading those who have never built one ot take the plunge...

Tom

[Scratchbuilder]

Wow, I seem to have started something here!

I cannot understand why any vacform should be more expensive than a resin. Surely the pattern work is similar and the moulds too, cost-wise and then the vac forming in relatively cheap styrene sheet must be cheaper than lots of resin, especially for the bigger models. ( I saw a 1/24th vac formed Lightning today that I'd kill for!).

A vac form is not that difficult to make. Knife, files and a sanding block! They should be in any model maker's kit.

If a vac form is done into a female mould all the detail is on the outside anyway, then it's down to vacuum and heat levels to get the very best reproduction of that detail.

When I did my apprenticeship at John B Thorp Modelmakers back in the 60s, we used vac forming into females to produce render, brick and tiles down to 1/200 scale, so I know it can be done. Panel lines are no problem!

I am encouraged by the responses here, thanks, gents.

Martin

[mrvr6]

a 1/48 vulcan? im in!!!!!

[Viking]

Count me in as another Vac form builder, I love 'em. My faviourites were Dynavector, Falcon, and Aeroclub. I build all of Johns 1/48 'Silver wings', The Grebe, Gamecock, Gauntlet, Tutor, Demon, and also DH.89 Rapide and Gypsy Moth. In fact I still have another Demon in the stash, although I have a slight reluctance to build it as I like looking forward to it. Bass-ackwards I know, but if I build it I probably won't be able to get another, then how can I look forward to it?

Also did the Aeroclub Meteors (4), Vampires (3), Lightnings (3), and Venoms (2) although the Venoms were more mixed media.

These days I've been doing Welsh models little 'uns, 1-11, ATP, Viscount F-27's, got a Dan Air HS-748 in build at the moment and a SAS Convair 440, Air Anglia F-27, and British Midland Herald lined up. The cost is reasonable, and you get hours and hours of modeling time out of them.

The ultimate were the Echelon 1/32 Lightnings, I built 3 and wish you could still get them.

Ah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be. But yes, we vac form builders are still out here!

Cheers

John

[Admiral Puff]

This is a refreshing post for a change. I have in fact been looking seriously at doing some more Vacs I have a number of patterns Saro London, Valleta etc in 1:72 in the store of subjects which are too big for me to produce injected without a multi component breakdown.

For instance my Saro London fuselage is no problem in Vac but is a pain to mould injected and in resin it puts quids on the cost.

John

You've got a market for at least one of each of these if you ever decide to go with them!

You could look at some of the other inter-war flying boats, too. I have a few of the early Contrail ones, but they are, to put it politely, less than state of the art. New kits with vac-form main elements like fuselage and wings, resin for details like engines, props etc. - I'm sure you'd sell as many as you can make.

[John Aero]

The Flying boats are very much the area in 1:72 and I only would use vac for the large parts and as you say my old friend Gordon Suttcliffe's kits need replacing. I could even call them Contrail as the family gave me permission to take the name when I bought the strut etc.

John

[Radleigh]

John I'd be interested in a Valleta, or any others from that era infact!

[The wooksta V2.0]

I'm holding out for an Avro Tudor!

[kev67]

John I'd be interested in a Valleta, or any others from that era infact!

You can get the body vac from here, all you would need is the wings from an old Airfix Wellington kit, John Aero does the engines and props for these as well

http://www.airmodel.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p33_vickers-valetta.html&

And this is Carmel Attards models you may of seen

http://modelingmadness.com/review/korean/gb/attardvaletta.htm

Edited February 7, 2013 by kev67

[Scratchbuilder]

What a lovely model in that link and superb sketches.

Martin

[Radleigh]

You can get the body vac from here, all you would need is the wings from an old Airfix Wellington kit, John Aero does the engines and props for these as well

http://www.airmodel.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p33_vickers-valetta.html&

And this is Carmel Attards models you may of seen

http://modelingmadness.com/review/korean/gb/attardvaletta.htm

Cheers Kev, I did type a reply earlier but the site froze. Was asking the differences between a Varsity and a Valetta but no need to convert as they do a kit! Also got a Wellington up in my dads loft too

[stringbag]

Cheers Kev, I did type a reply earlier but the site froze. Was asking the differences between a Varsity and a Valetta but no need to convert as they do a kit! Also got a Wellington up in my dads loft too

Drop me a PM Radleigh. I have a Valetta kit if you want it.

[Scratchbuilder]

My son has built two vac-form machines and we'll be experimenting with something small to start with.

Martin

[Amo Aero]

I echo many of the other posters here--would love to see more vac kits. I would much prefer to build a quality vac kit instead of a resin kit. It is very unfortunate that resin kits have almost completely eclipsed vac. Resin is too expensive, too heavy, too prone to warpage, and IMHO should only be used for smaller kits and kit parts.

Unfortunately, I also believe the golden age of vac kits is long past. There was always a significant percentage of the modeling public that would never touch a vac kit because of its perceived difficulty--there is a good reason for the term "vacuphobia". One of the reasons for the rise in popularity of resin kits is in the similarity to injection kits in the minds of many modelers. I also believe that widespread vacuphobia is one of the great tragedies of our hobby. Had vacuform kits been embraced with the same enthusiasm as has been showered upon resin and short run injection kits, we would be experiencing a much richer and varied hobby today.

As for the gentleman who wants a vacuform Valiant, any vac kit manufacturer will tell you that the appearance of an injection kit, no matter how bad it is, is virtually the kiss of death for sales of any vacuform kit of the same subject.

Edited February 9, 2013 by BOC262

[Jonny]

Not stricty in the right place, this being the Civil section of BM, but speaking of vacforms I've wanted a 1/48 Supermarine Swift. The only option is a Falcon kit, of which I have one started and another ready to be started.

In the past I've used a Falcon conversion kit to create a 1/48 Spitfire XVI (I know, since released as an injection kit by two manufacturers) and tried - unsuccessfully -to build a 1/72 TSR. I've an Aeroclub 1/48 Avro Tutor somewhere too.

I think that there IS a market for vacforms. Whether it's for complete kits or conversions using components from injection kits I'm not sure.

What I will say is I usually avoid resin like the plague! Too heavy and the material has inherent health risks.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Jonny

[Scratchbuilder]

The aim, Jonny, is to make a basic, but accurate kit with all major features such as control surfaces, but not a proliferation of over scale "panel" lines, which, let's face it are barely visible on most aircraft from a scale viewing distance, BUT people can put them on if they wish. Parts not feasible in vac-form can be usually covered by clever design in white metal.

I would prefer to keep the contract suppliers to just the one I know, i.e. the metal caster. Known him for years! Oh and the wheels and tyres will be separate (personal hobby horse!)

Decals can usually be bought as aftermarket and I would specify them where they exist. Otherwise I would offer them separately so the initial kit price isn't bumped up by something that you can't use till you've built it anyway! By which time the Mrs. will have allowed the purchase of a decal set without noticing.

Cheers,

Martin

Martin

[Jonny]

I hope that it works for you, Martin. I can see there's a lot of interest, here and in another forum.

Good luck!

[Vlamgat9]

Pre-cut vacforms would be wonderful

[Work In Progress]

Resin is fine for detail sets but I don't like it at all for fuselages and flying surfaces. I much prefer vac-form for the major elements of an airframe, for the reduced weight and for the ability to open things up and create the structure inside, exploiting the thin walled sections.. During the 80s and 90s I went around buying up good quality vac-forms whenever injection-moulded alternatives were announced and the vacs all came out cheap at swapmeets or under the tables at model shows. I have a big box full of Falcon, Welsh and Aeroclub kits (sold my Hunter about a year ago and I am still not sure I should have done, though) and am very happy to have them. My 1/48 Spitfires IX and XII are both Hasegawa Vbs with Falcon mods and to me look as good or better than the injection kits that came out to replace them in the market.

[gruffy]

Yes, I'm in.. I got building vacs last year and have been converted! Would love to see another range of vacs out.. If I get the time I'm going to be making a master for a vac in 1/32nd this year, most likely a Short Skyvan!

Love to see one of them!