VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War

[John Thompson]

colours that look very different in different lights

FWIW, perceived colour shift under different lighting conditions is sometimes called metamerism (Nick referred to it in one of his posts), although I may be misusing the word. I believe it's caused by differences in the predominant wavelength of various types of light (natural, fluorescent, incandescent, etc.) and the ability of the human eye to distinguish colours under those conditions, although some colours may be more subject to this effect than others. I used to work in the wallcoverings industry; it was a very real problem when trying to assure accurate colour-matching between one production batch (or dye lot) and another, the idea being that a customer who buys 5 rolls from lot 15, then runs out of it and has to buy more from lot 23, should be able to hang the newer product right beside the older product without a visible difference. The expression "commercial match" used to get tossed around a lot...

John

(Yep - I was misusing the word - see here, and read the part called "Metameric Failure", which is what I should have called it; likewise my explanation is a metameric failure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color

Google first, post later!)

John

Edited March 16, 2013 by John Thompson

[spitfire]

Hi Massimo here is an A-21m chip to compare to the AMT-1, there is also a Humbrol 84 chip as well, the A-21m is lighter than the AMT-1 and is not as green, my brushwork on the A-21m is not fantastic I will have to do another one.

Cheers

Dennis

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, hi Dennis,

thank you for the comparison work.

I wonder what is the yellowish chip in lower position?

Regards

Massimo

[Learstang]

Now that A-21m looks more like what I thought AMT-1 should look like. It's quite a bit different from the AMT-1.

Regards,

Jason

[Test Graham]

I don't know whether this would help, but the Methuen Book of Colour suggests that all colour chips should be viewed against a neutral grey background ather than white, as this helps to assess the more subtle hues. Perhaps Nick could comment on this?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

this is right for an eye comparison, but having digital photos, we can easily compare the coordinates of the colors or move parts of the photo to make them closer. Anyway grey helps to see thin differences, but here they are even too visible.

Regards

Massimo

[spitfire]

Hi all, hi Dennis,

thank you for the comparison work.

I wonder what is the yellowish chip in lower position?

Regards

Massimo

That is Xtracolor X9 RAF Middle Stone which was supposed to be a match for Humbrol 84, it plainly is not.

Cheers

Dennis

[stevehnz]

Nice thread this & really fascinating to boot. I'm a great fan of painting out test squares to compare different paints, I do it a fair bit with stuff I've got or to get the shade I'm after.

Re the difference between the Hu84 & Xtracolor X9, not that it is germaine to this thread. , don't forget that Humbrol call 84 Mid stone not Middle Stone & the better Humbrol match to the X9 would be Hu225 which is formulated to be the same as the MAP color chip for Middlestone. I'm sure I'm not the first to be confused by this, though I might now have something to do with my tin of 84 after looking at these results, I reckon its not a bad looking A-21m & what I would have though AMT 1 looked like.

Steve.

Edited March 16, 2013 by stevehnz

[spitfire]

Hi Steve the Xtracolor X9 came from my Humbrol comparison chart which had X9 and MM1792 as matches for H84 which X9 clearly is not ! and MM1792 is our friend FS34201, the big surprise for me was that my tin of H84 was from the late 1980's or early 1990's, and had already been opened, but was really nice to brush out, it really showed up a lot of the more modern paints. I agree that the H84 looks very close to A-21m, especially on the second chip that I painted with a bit more care, but I'll look at that in daylight.

It looks like FS34201 or Revell 87 for AMT-1 and H84 for AMT-1m so far, but I've looked at so many different paints at the moment that I probably need to go back over all the stuff to be sure, we seem to need 2 AMT-1 colours for pre and post 1943 colours, plus A-21m.

Cheers

Dennis

[Seawinder]

On a slightly different subtopic, I just received one of the Akan acrylic lacquer assortments (the one with AMT-4, 6 and 7). It smells something like the Mr. Color paints, and it looks as if it'll go on easily and dry quickly. I'm going to use at least one of the colors on the Yak-1 I'm planning to do this spring.

One of the colors provided in the set is A-14 Steel Grey, but it's quite dark -- I match it somewhere between 26132 and 26152, whereas South Front gives 26187 as a reference in their Yak-1 kit, and the color chart at sovietwarplanes.com gives 26293. FWIW, I tried mixing equal parts of Model Master Medium Gray 35237 and Navy Gloss Gray 16081. The result is a near-dead on match for 26187.

People have taken to viewing Akan as unquestioned gospel color truth. I think that's a mistake.

Pip

[Learstang]

Pip, I don't know if you have Testors Model Master Neutral Gray, but I think it's a pretty dead-on match for preserved examples of A-14 that I've seen. If you have MM Neutral Gray, it'd be great to see it next to AKAN's A-14 Steel Grey - that goes for you also, Dennis if you can do so (not that you haven't done enough already!). I think your point is well-taken about AKAN paints. They are not, probably can't be the final word in VVS colours. Relying on one "authority" can be dangerous - look at the WEM VVS colours (which they seem to know are based on flawed research, yet they continue to sell them!).

Regards,

Jason

[stevehnz]

I don't 'spose anyone knows how good the old Aeromaster colours are for VVS, I've got Light & Dark Grey, Light Blue, Topside Green & Earth Brown & from what I can see they look as though they're not too bad but nothing to test them against, maybe painted out against some known Humbrol shades would give an idea? Any suggestions as to which ones. I'd look at Hu84 against the Earth Brown for starters, maybe Hu150 against topside green & Hu89 against light blue. I've an old tin of Hu115 but it doesn't seem to fit in with any of these, maybe similar to A18f on Massimos website but somewhat darker. Any suggestion for matches for the light & dark greys?

Steve.

[spitfire]

Hi Steve the closest Humbrol matches for the AKAN range of paints would be ;

AMT-1 = H84

AMT-4 = H150

AMT-7 = H89

AMT-11 = H79

AMT-12 = H32

Cheers

Dennis

[stevehnz]

Thanks Dennis, I've got them so I can paint out some test cards in the next few days.

Steve.

[Seawinder]

Pip, I don't know if you have Testors Model Master Neutral Gray, but I think it's a pretty dead-on match for preserved examples of A-14 that I've seen. If you have MM Neutral Gray, it'd be great to see it next to AKAN's A-14 Steel Grey - that goes for you also, Dennis if you can do so (not that you haven't done enough already!). I think your point is well-taken about AKAN paints. They are not, probably can't be the final word in VVS colours. Relying on one "authority" can be dangerous - look at the WEM VVS colours (which they seem to know are based on flawed research, yet they continue to sell them!).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

Yes, I've been using Model Master 36270 for A-14. I don't know where South Front got their reference of 36187. In any case, the Akan version is WAY darker. I'm just going out the door to my church job, but I'll prepare and post comparative samples when I get home.

Pip

[Seawinder]

I don't 'spose anyone knows how good the old Aeromaster colours are for VVS, I've got Light & Dark Grey, Light Blue, Topside Green & Earth Brown & from what I can see they look as though they're not too bad but nothing to test them against, maybe painted out against some known Humbrol shades would give an idea? Any suggestions as to which ones. I'd look at Hu84 against the Earth Brown for starters, maybe Hu150 against topside green & Hu89 against light blue. I've an old tin of Hu115 but it doesn't seem to fit in with any of these, maybe similar to A18f on Massimos website but somewhat darker. Any suggestion for matches for the light & dark greys?

Steve.

Hi Steve.

I've got a couple of bottles of the old Aeromaster enamels: Light Blue and Topside Green. The Light Blue looks something like RLM 76; the Topside Green is sort of like a darker version of RAF Grey-Green. In short, not very useful IMHO.

Pip

[spitfire]

Pip, I don't know if you have Testors Model Master Neutral Gray, but I think it's a pretty dead-on match for preserved examples of A-14 that I've seen. If you have MM Neutral Gray, it'd be great to see it next to AKAN's A-14 Steel Grey - that goes for you also, Dennis if you can do so (not that you haven't done enough already!). I think your point is well-taken about AKAN paints. They are not, probably can't be the final word in VVS colours. Relying on one "authority" can be dangerous - look at the WEM VVS colours (which they seem to know are based on flawed research, yet they continue to sell them!).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason nearly missed this one, but no I do not have the AKAN A14, I use Humbrol H5, I read an article on ARC which provided me with this

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/SnRWfq2pBTI/AAAAAAAAAMg/hK4RQ9uxY5I/s800/A-14_Hu%205.jpg

Strangely this chart gives the same FS numbers for AMT-11 and A14.

http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82

Cheers

Dennis

[John Thompson]

Not trying to be antagonistic here - I've been guilty of adding white to try to lighten up some of the Akan acrylics myself - but I still think the Akan paints are as close as we can get to an accurate match, considering how they were developed. Too dark? Too dark compared to what (but acknowledging Jason's comments about A-14)? It still seems to me that the "too dark" argument is based on judgements of contrast between colours, made from black and white photos. But I'm always willing to be proven wrong - it happens often enough that I'm very good at it...

John

[Seawinder]

Not trying to be antagonistic here - I've been guilty of adding white to try to lighten up some of the Akan acrylics myself - but I still think the Akan paints are as close as we can get to an accurate match, considering how they were developed. Too dark? Too dark compared to what (but acknowledging Jason's comments about A-14)? It still seems to me that the "too dark" argument is based on judgements of contrast between colours, made from black and white photos. But I'm always willing to be proven wrong - it happens often enough that I'm very good at it...

John

Hi John.

I think what you're saying is quite valid. For example, when I first saw Akan's rendition of AMT-7, I thought it looked too dark; but when I actually sprayed it on the Il-2 it looked quite convincing. Same, I think, for their/his AMT-12. However, I really think the Akan A-14 is much too dark, not based on comparisons with b/w photographs, but based on the color pics I've seen and on the prevailing FS references. I'm going to post a comparison with FS 36270 this afternoon.

Pip

[John Thompson]

Hi John.

I think what you're saying is quite valid. For example, when I first saw Akan's rendition of AMT-7, I thought it looked too dark; but when I actually sprayed it on the Il-2 it looked quite convincing. Same, I think, for their/his AMT-12. However, I really think the Akan A-14 is much too dark, not based on comparisons with b/w photographs, but based on the color pics I've seen and on the prevailing FS references. I'm going to post a comparison with FS 36270 this afternoon.

Pip

Thanks, Pip! As I think I might already have said in this thread, you have to believe in something, otherwise you'll never get to the end of all the "maybes" and other rationalizations. My choice is to believe that the Akan colours are a direct line to the Russian standards that apply to this subject. I'm not suggesting that no one should continue to investigate the topic - the more attention (of a good kind, for which this thread has been much appreciated) it gets, the better. Similarly FS comparisons are a bit of a thicket (check various references to see how many different equivalents you can find for AMT-7!), but the FS samples are the most accessible standard available, so it's natural to use them.

John

[Seawinder]

Okay, here, as promised, is the A-14 comparison.

The large background piece is painted Model Master 36270. Superimposed on the left is Akan's A-14. On the right is my 1-1 mix of MM 35327 and 16081, which is a very close match to 26187. The Akan sample is their new acrylic lacquer, which sprays beautifully thinned with acrylic lacquer thinner.

Pip

Edited March 17, 2013 by pnmoss

[Learstang]

Thank you for the samples, Pip! The MM Neutral Gray looks to be the correct hue, but light compared to the AKAN A-14. No great surprise there as AKAN always looks a little dark to me. I've been doing a lot of spraying with my MM Neutral Gray on my two new Shturmovik kits (the Hobby Boss and Tamiya 1/72nd scale arrows), and it definitely looks darker than what I'm seeing here. Of course, your sample is on my monitor and back lit, whereas my paint is on grey plastic.

Regards,

Jason

[spitfire]

I finally got around to brushing out another A-21m sample, and it does look better, so I decided to put together what I think would look good on my IL-2, these choices are practical in that the paint is available and does not require mixing, they come close to matching probably the most researched range of VVS paints around, and more importantly I like the look of them.

Here's the first set

A mixture of AKAN (A-21m) MM Gunship Grey (AMT-12) Humbrol 140 (AMT-4) and Humbrol 89 (AMT-7) I had the MM Gunship grey (ok gray) as an AMT-11 candidate but it looks good in combination with the others.

Here's the same combination with Humbrol 84 replacing the AKAN, which although a great colour would cause a divorce if I airbrushed it in the house due to my better halves very sensitive nose, and no I don't do acrylics.

And the one that I will probably go with, however I am waiting to check out a couple of more colours.

Cheers

Dennis

[Seawinder]

Hi Dennis.

Re your color combo for the Il-2, I think they look good, but I'd probably add a little black to the Gunship Gray.

Pip

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,

For example, when I first saw Akan's rendition of AMT-7, I thought it looked too dark; but when I actually sprayed it on the Il-2 it looked quite convincing. Same, I think, for their/his AMT-12.

the most of the paints fade to a lighter shade; so in case of doubt on the right darkness it is safer to use a color that is a bit lighter than the darker chip available. If one misses because his colors are too light, he can always say that they are faded. If one chooses a too dark color for his model, he can't justify this in such way.

Regards

Massimo