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Bassplayer

VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War

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Agreed: but whatever the reasoning behind it, an air superiority scheme wouldn't call for dark colours. Similarly you refer to AMT1 a Light Brown, whereas the recommended Revell match is quite dark.

You wouldn't think an air superiority scheme would have dark colours, unless the clouds in the old Soviet Union were habitually dark! I've even read where the AMT-12 colour was very dark, almost black. The Light Brown designation was the actual Soviet designation, so you would think the colour would be relatively light (although colours don't always match up to their names - Dark Slate Grey being green, for example). To make matters more confusing with AMT-1, it evidently was a greyer colour at first, which became more tan as the war went on. This colour to me is the most problematic of the Soviet GPW colours.

Regards,

Jason

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You wouldn't think an air superiority scheme would have dark colours, unless the clouds in the old Soviet Union were habitually dark! I've even read where the AMT-12 colour was very dark, almost black. The Light Brown designation was the actual Soviet designation, so you would think the colour would be relatively light (although colours don't always match up to their names - Dark Slate Grey being green, for example). To make matters more confusing with AMT-1, it evidently was a greyer colour at first, which became more tan as the war went on. This colour to me is the most problematic of the Soviet GPW colours.

Regards,

Jason

Agreed. Actually, I think Model Master (enamel)'s rendition of AMT-1 isn't too bad. Maybe needs to be lightened just a tad.

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Agreed. Actually, I think Model Master (enamel)'s rendition of AMT-1 isn't too bad. Maybe needs to be lightened just a tad.

Model Master do a version of AMT-1? I use Model Master Enamel Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 for AMT-1, which I think may be too light, but about the correct hue (colour).

Regards,

Jason

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I'd like to add one other factor to the mention of AKAN colours appearing dark, and that is with particular reference to the introduction of the grey colours schemes midwar. Camouflage changes are not brought about without specific intentions. This was driven, as in other air forces, by the move from a defensive approach of keeping the aircraft hidden on the ground, or when viewed from above, to a more offensive approach of being less obvious when airborne. The same can be seen in the Luftwaffe, RAF and even USAAF, with appropriate qualifiers as no two examples were identical. The appearance of the two greys should therefore be lighter than the preceding camouflage, as indeed is seen in many b&w photos. The AKAN colours do not give this impression.

A good point. And another, if I may, was the issue of resources impacting the paint industries. The question of camouflage was often a compromise with supply exigencies as much as desirability, where the shortage of certain preferred pigments or constituents drove expedient or necessary changes to practice. One example was the world-wide shortage of chromium oxide green pigments which were prized for their military paint and camouflage properties, another the shortage of red pigments in the UK and a third the shortage of cobalt blue pigments in Germany.

Regards

Nick

Edited by Nick Millman

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Nick, the same thing happened to the Soviets. One of the reasons the Soviets moved away from so much green in their camouflage (from the middle/late 1943 they reduced it completely for fighters, and reduced it dramatically for all other aircraft) was the shortage of the green pigment necessary to produce the paint.

Regards,

Jason

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I intend to model a fair number of Soviet WW2 aircraft (or Great Patriotic War as a Russian would have it). And I'm looking for some advice on one aspect in particular.

I'm a brush painter recently returned to the hobby and having his first taste of acrylics (I've been out of the hobby a loooooong time!) however I can't find anything that fits the quite vivid sky blue of the aircraft's undersides in the Tamiya or Revell acrylics range.

Have I simply not been looking hard enough or is there something out there from another paint brand that matches?

Thanks for your help.

Hello Bassplayer!

I saw an other post of yours and checked this thread. It really seems again that you have not given answer to your question and the discussion has been carried far away from it.

First. If I read a question where acrylic paint matches are asked I usually just pass. Recently I have used acrylics for cockpits etc. when I want to close fuselage and continue building during winter time when here in Finland it means stink inside the house. But vast majority of my paints are non-water based and will be.

Of the underside colour of VVS planes. You are searching for "vivid sky blue". Vivid sky blue was something Pilawskii brought out. For these vivid sky blues buy the WEM current line of VVS paints. The line has several light blues which you can choose from. These are not acrylic.

Personally I have problem with that vivid sky blue. At Vesivehmaa there was parts of two MiG-3 and one LaGG-3 15 years ago. May still be. I was back then helping a friend of mine to move the pieces around and compare colours with FS chart. One important observation was that underside light blue was the same for all three. Green colour differed between the MiG-3 and LaGG-3. I do not remember any more if the green on the black&green MiG-3 wing and LaGG-3 fuselage piece was the same. I wrote once upon time:

"We cleaned carefully the areas to be examined with moist tissues and then

dried them. No sanding was done nor was deemed necessary. Parts were

taken outdoors where we could use good natural light (sun). Light was

dispersed because there was thin overcast. In other words lighting

conditions were perfect. A neutral grey card was placed over the area to

be compared. The card had two holes (windows). In the other one FS

sample was seen and in the other the color (surface) to be compared. All

this is from color comparison schoolbook.

Much to our surprise we found light blue on both the LaGG-3 and the

MiG-3 was extremely similar. FS35352 was extremely close match to the

blue on LaGG-3 (wooden/fabric surface). The blue on MiG-3 was also

very, very close to that, both on wooden and metal surfaces. In fact the

blues are so close that they most probably are same paint."

As far as I know there is no hobby paint matching FS 35352. In any case the blue was not "vivid sky blue". It is possible that if you sand through the surface layer you will achieve something approaching vivid colour. But in my opinion that surface is not equal what the painted on surface were with the paint binder surface. It is true that binder yellowing brings greenish cast which may or may not be important as yellowing did take place also back then (but to what extent?). At HyperScale discussion forum a Russian fellow told his grandfather recollection that underside blue colour lost color and lightened very fast. As far as I know this is true for the Prussian-Paris blue and zinc oxide pigment mixes. Nick may have more info about that issue.

I have also experimented with pigment mixes and nitrocellulose dope. Blue pigment Schminke 18 493 "Prussian-Paris blue and Uula color (Finnish company) zinc oxide (comparable to a "sortovoy" war time quality Soviet pigment). These should be close to the pigments Soviet used during the war time. No mixture will bring the "vivid sky blue" that Pilawskii is offering. The colours are more like British azure blues (NB lowercase name). Mixtures with more Prussian blue are like the AMT/AGT-7 samples in the Albom Nakrasok. I have to stress that I have not compared them directly as I do not possess the book, having been able to loan it twice for short durations long ago. BTW the Albom Nakrasok AMT/AGT-7 sample is too strong blue in my opinion. There are at least two explanations: A II light blue was used (Vesivehmaa pieces comparable?) or during war time less Prussian Blue pigment was used in the mixture. Albom Nakrasok is from 1948, accepted for printing(and painting?) in 1947.

At an Estonian local museum at Saaremaa island there are pieces of Il-2. One of them is a strip of metal from wing underside being light blue and part of the red&white star. Of the painted-on colour samples I had with me during the visit Humbrol 65 was the closest. Possibly within the magical 5.0 colour difference which is the variation between paint bathes according to Nick. The measuring device was my mk I eyeballs which is good enough for me. Don't know about the rest of world.

So after this long introduction may I suggest using Humbrol 65 for the VVS aircraft undersides. I don't know if all Humbrol colours are available as acrylic and if it is the same as the "traditional" Humbrol 65.

For those wanting to make their lives simple. If and when I am using Humbrol paints for VVS subjects I pick:

green - Hu 150 Forest Green (this has the yellow in it what is needed even if not exact match)

blue - Hu 65, 23 or 122 (Hu 65 has the right feeling, 23 if you think A-28 was the original colour (as opposed to A II lt.blue & AMT-7), 122 if you like the vivid sky blue idea)

dark grey - Hu 32 (one of the linked threads has pics of the Humbrol greys on Albom Nakrasok samples)

mid grey - Hu 79

cockpit grey - Hu 5 (should be matt instead of gloss, but colour is close to the Albom Nakrasok A-14 sample eyeballed)

black is black

I still like to emphasis that those above are my personal choices. Which may or may not be same thing as accurate.

If you want to "Air Superioritisize" the greys for example use the colours straight from the tins. After applying the decals/transfers put some light blue (grey) into your matt dope and spray allover the upper surfaces. This will make the appearance lighter, tones down the decal colours and blends everything together hopefully in a pleasing way.

Happy modelling!

Kari

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Kari, imagine that - a simple question about VVS colours going far afield! That always seems to be the case.

Regards,

Jason

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Kari, thats about the best post I've seen for the "That Looks About Right" school of modelling to which I tend toward though I do try to temper that with at least some knowledge gleaned from here & improve if I can. Thanks for that.

Jason, surely "simple question" & "VVS colours" do not belong in the same thread, let alone the same post. :lol:

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz

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I am curious about that bright, almost turquoise blue I have seen with the Model Master offering. The color seems exceptionally bright. I use Model Master, just can't break old habits I guess. On another note, I was told that the MiG 3 was never painted in the green and black camouflage, and that was a construct of the model companies, so what to do with my Trumpeter kit?

Cheers

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I am curious about that bright, almost turquoise blue I have seen with the Model Master offering. The color seems exceptionally bright. I use Model Master, just can't break old habits I guess. On another note, I was told that the MiG 3 was never painted in the green and black camouflage, and that was a construct of the model companies, so what to do with my Trumpeter kit?

Cheers

Like all other aircraft that made it past the initial stages of the GPW, the MiG-3's were painted with the black/green camouflage. Here's just one example - http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/zarodinu.html

Regards,

Jason

P.S. Steve, too right!

Edited by Learstang

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Like all other aircraft that made it past the initial stages of the GPW, the MiG-3's were painted with the black/green camouflage. Here's just one example - http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/zarodinu.html

Regards,

Jason

P.S. Steve, too right!

That answers that question. According to the "experts" on "the site that shall not be named" the black and green camo was not used, yet there is obviously photographic evidence that it was. What green is that, and what was the type of blue used on the bottom of the aircraft? Aside from tanks, I have modeled precious few Soviet aircraft.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers

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That answers that question. According to the "experts" on "the site that shall not be named" the black and green camo was not used, yet there is obviously photographic evidence that it was. What green is that, and what was the type of blue used on the bottom of the aircraft? Aside from tanks, I have modeled precious few Soviet aircraft.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers

From what I've read, much of it at sovietwarplanes.com, early MiG-3s were painted with overall green uppers: AII Green for wooden parts, A-19f for metal parts. I've taken FS 34096 as a decent approximation for AII Green; A-19f is appreciably lighter. At some point during 1941, probably before the official directive for the new green-black schemes, some MiG-3s had areas of black applied to break up the camouflage. By the time the later MiG-3s were in production, the green-black scheme was official, so at least many of them had uppers in AMT-4 Green and AMT-6 Black factory applied. AMT-4 is lighter and more olive than AII Green: 34102 and 34151 are often given as approximations. I plan to use one of two hobby paints: Mr. Color 126 Mitsubishi Cockpit Green or Model Master (enamel) 34027 Forest Green, which I think is actually closer to 34151 than their Interior Green.

Best,

Pip

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I presume that the guys who restored this MiG-3 to flying status paid as much attention to an authentic colour scheme as they did to getting it airworthy?

day3_052.JPG

day3_054.JPG

day3_051.JPG

Ken

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At HyperScale discussion forum a Russian fellow told his grandfather recollection that underside blue colour lost color and lightened very fast. As far as I know this is true for the Prussian-Paris blue and zinc oxide pigment mixes. Nick may have more info about that issue.

Terve, Kari! :)

Thank you for remembering our discussion at Hyperscale :)

It was father of my fellow modeller. He was technician officer at Yak-9 Fighter Regiment (IAP) 1943-45.

Sadly he passed away in 2012..

Regards,

Dmitry

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From what I've read, much of it at sovietwarplanes.com, early MiG-3s were painted with overall green uppers: AII Green for wooden parts, A-19f for metal parts. I've taken FS 34096 as a decent approximation for AII Green; A-19f is appreciably lighter. At some point during 1941, probably before the official directive for the new green-black schemes, some MiG-3s had areas of black applied to break up the camouflage. By the time the later MiG-3s were in production, the green-black scheme was official, so at least many of them had uppers in AMT-4 Green and AMT-6 Black factory applied. AMT-4 is lighter and more olive than AII Green: 34102 and 34151 are often given as approximations. I plan to use one of two hobby paints: Mr. Color 126 Mitsubishi Cockpit Green or Model Master (enamel) 34027 Forest Green, which I think is actually closer to 34151 than their Interior Green.

Best,

Pip

Thanks for the help mate, I have been threatening to start using acrylics but after all these years I have the enamels pretty much wired. At least now I have an approximation, which is pretty much what we use for 90% of our color schemes. The Trumpeter kit is really quite nice and should be a fun build.

Cheers

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I presume that the guys who restored this MiG-3 to flying status paid as much attention to an authentic colour scheme as they did to getting it airworthy?

day3_052.JPG

day3_054.JPG

day3_051.JPG

Ken

Those colours look pretty good, Ken. The only thing I'm a bit sceptical about is the yellow surround on the bort (aircraft number). I've always doubted that the Soviets used much yellow early in the GPW because it was the Axis identifying colour and there was the risk of friendly fire. The yellow propeller tips are a modern addition, no doubt for safety reasons. VVS aircraft do not seem to have had them during the GPW. I suppose the Soviets felt that if you were stupid enough to wander into a spinning black propeller disk, then you got what you deserved!

Regards,

Jason

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From what I've read, much of it at sovietwarplanes.com, early MiG-3s were painted with overall green uppers: AII Green for wooden parts, A-19f for metal parts. I've taken FS 34096 as a decent approximation for AII Green; A-19f is appreciably lighter. At some point during 1941, probably before the official directive for the new green-black schemes, some MiG-3s had areas of black applied to break up the camouflage. By the time the later MiG-3s were in production, the green-black scheme was official, so at least many of them had uppers in AMT-4 Green and AMT-6 Black factory applied. AMT-4 is lighter and more olive than AII Green: 34102 and 34151 are often given as approximations. I plan to use one of two hobby paints: Mr. Color 126 Mitsubishi Cockpit Green or Model Master (enamel) 34027 Forest Green, which I think is actually closer to 34151 than their Interior Green.

Best,

Pip

In looking back at the color chart at sovietwarplanes.com, I think I got the name wrong for the lighter green -- I think it should be AE-7. Nevertheless, it's still visibly lighter than AII Green. Sorry!

Pip

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In looking back at the color chart at sovietwarplanes.com, I think I got the name wrong for the lighter green -- I think it should be AE-7. Nevertheless, it's still visibly lighter than AII Green. Sorry!

Pip

Actually, Pip, if you're talking about the paint that replaced the AII Green, it was AMT-4 Green. For whatever it's worth to anybody, the colours I use, all Testors Model Master flat enamels, are Interior Green for AMT-4 Green (although, Pip, I may take a look at your Forest Green), Black for AMT-6 Black, Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7 Blue, Gunship Gray for AMT-12 Dark Grey, Medium Gray for AMT-11 Grey-Blue, Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 for AMT-1 Light Brown, and Neutral Gray for A-14 Steel Grey (used on some interior surfaces). For the green on the wheel hubs, I use Medium Green, and for AE-9 Light Grey I use Light Gray (used on some instrument panels, such as those on the Il-2). I can't and won't vouch for their absolute accuracy, but they look about right, work well with my airbrush, and are easily available where I live (the States). Again, these are all Testors Model Master flat enamels, which I thin with Testors Universal Enamel Thinner, which works well for thinning paints for the airbrush (at about a 1/3rd thinner and 2/3rd paint ratio), and as a paintbrush cleaner.

Regards,

Jason

Edited by Learstang

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So after this long introduction may I suggest using Humbrol 65 for the VVS aircraft undersides. I don't know if all Humbrol colours are available as acrylic and if it is the same as the "traditional" Humbrol 65.

For those wanting to make their lives simple. If and when I am using Humbrol paints for VVS subjects I pick:

green - Hu 150 Forest Green (this has the yellow in it what is needed even if not exact match)

blue - Hu 65, 23 or 122 (Hu 65 has the right feeling, 23 if you think A-28 was the original colour (as opposed to A II lt.blue & AMT-7), 122 if you like the vivid sky blue idea)

dark grey - Hu 32 (one of the linked threads has pics of the Humbrol greys on Albom Nakrasok samples)

mid grey - Hu 79

cockpit grey - Hu 5 (should be matt instead of gloss, but colour is close to the Albom Nakrasok A-14 sample eyeballed)

black is black

Thank you, Kari - a very helpful summary for Humbrol users!

In looking back at the color chart at sovietwarplanes.com, I think I got the name wrong for the lighter green -- I think it should be AE-7. Nevertheless, it's still visibly lighter than AII Green. Sorry!

Pip

Did you mean the "lighter green" used to finish metal parts on the early (pre-1941 camouflage standards) MiG-3? If so, I believe your original post was correct in identifying this colour as A-19:

Mi_G_3_Akan_colours.jpg

(Image by Konstantin Lesnikov)

John

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Actually, Pip, if you're talking about the paint that replaced the AII Green, it was AMT-4 Green. For whatever it's worth to anybody, the colours I use, all Testors Model Master flat enamels, are Interior Green for AMT-4 Green (although, Pip, I may take a look at your Forest Green), Black for AMT-6 Black, Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7 Blue, Gunship Gray for AMT-12 Dark Grey, Medium Gray for AMT-11 Grey-Blue, Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 for AMT-1 Light Brown, and Neutral Gray for A-14 Steel Grey (used on some interior surfaces). For the green on the wheel hubs, I use Medium Green, and for AE-9 Light Grey I use Light Gray (used on some instrument panels, such as those on the Il-2). I can't and won't vouch for their absolute accuracy, but they look about right, work well with my airbrush, and are easily available where I live (the States). Again, these are all Testors Model Master flat enamels, which I thin with Testors Universal Enamel Thinner, which works well for thinning paints for the airbrush (at about a 1/3rd thinner and 2/3rd paint ratio), and as a paintbrush cleaner.

Regards,

Jason

I know you're not a big fan of acrylics, but are you aware that Testors/Pactra makes a line of VVS-specific acrylic enamels? I haven't seen them in North America, but they seem to be available in Europe; look carefully at the image in this post (you may need to bump your screen magnification up to 200% to read the labels):

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234930840-yak-3-eduard-148-oob/?p=1201391

Might be worth investigating...

John

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Hello!

Dimmy thank you for confirmation of my memory. The recollection you wrote about is a golden nugget at least for me. I did save the text but have lost it couple of computers ago.

Perhaps this thread might be good place to discuss the early MiG-3 green colour. I have a couple of thoughts which would need "peer review".

I have written about the green on MiG-3 s/n 2171 at Vesivehmaa:

"The MiG-3 at Vesivehmaa uses green FS34130 for upperside camoflage
and also as primer for all metal areas. For example interiors of stabilizer
and also on exterior under the light blue FS35352. BTW there is a
(repair?) patch of light blue painted over the green upperside of the
stabilizer! "

The first thought: is it possible that the green is the same as the paint known as "Factory Green"? As I recall and can be read in the quoted text the green was painted on every surface, inside and out. And the underside light blue on the green "primer".

Second thought: is the "Factory Green" the same as A-19f? This green has been given as used on metal surfaces on Zavod (factory) 1?

Third: the f means the paint is glyptal (glyptal - and pentaphtal - are both alkyds which belong to polyesters which are "synthetic resins"). As I wrote in my earlier post glyptal can be used as metal surface primer for nitrocellulose paints.

Fourth: The MiG-3 s/n 2171 underside light blue could then be nitrocellulose paint (A II lt.blue / AMT-7) instead of A-18f.

If I think the situation as a production engineer what could be more simple solution than paint everything with the same paint. Glyptal could be used succesfully on all aircraft construction materials. The underside blue (and cockpit side panels etc.) could then be painted with quick drying nitrocellulose paint. Thereby speeding up the finishing process.

What do you think?

Kari

PS Is there hobby paint close to FS 34130 for real (as opposed to label promise)? Humbrol 75 is too dark.

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Did you mean the "lighter green" used to finish metal parts on the early (pre-1941 camouflage standards) MiG-3? If so, I believe your original post was correct in identifying this colour as A-19:

Mi_G_3_Akan_colours.jpg

(Image by Konstantin Lesnikov)

John

Hi John.

Yes, I realized that in checking out some old threads after I had posted. Thanks!

Pip

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I know you're not a big fan of acrylics, but are you aware that Testors/Pactra makes a line of VVS-specific acrylic enamels? I haven't seen them in North America, but they seem to be available in Europe; look carefully at the image in this post (you may need to bump your screen magnification up to 200% to read the labels):

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234930840-yak-3-eduard-148-oob/?p=1201391

Might be worth investigating...

John

John, I'll look for those and give them a try. Everything seems to be moving to acrylics anyway; I might have to give up my grumpy old man routine and change also ("Why in my day, we never even heard of acrylics!").

Regards,

Jason

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From the picture of the Pactra bottle, all one can tell is that acrylic pigment (I think that is the correct term) is being used, there are several bottles of Mr Color there as well, also acrylic, but a lacquer rather than enamel. Can't tell if the carrier is a water and/or alcohol base or a solvent base, Mr Color for instance is also an acrylic, but the carrier is alcohol/solvent.

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I know you're not a big fan of acrylics, but are you aware that Testors/Pactra makes a line of VVS-specific acrylic enamels? I haven't seen them in North America, but they seem to be available in Europe; look carefully at the image in this post (you may need to bump your screen magnification up to 200% to read the labels):

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234930840-yak-3-eduard-148-oob/?p=1201391

Might be worth investigating...

John

I just followed the link to the build article. The Pactra renditions of AMT-11 and -12 look quite good to my eye. However, I'm coming up totally empty trying to locate any commercial reference online. Any idea where to look?

Pip

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