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Bassplayer

VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War

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In terms of identifying the intended colours matching to the original standards is a better approach than matching to extant applied samples from aircraft (unless there is a broad enough range of the latter available to categorise colours by manufacturer, type, etc., beyond single examples). If it can be verified that Akan paints are indeed good matches to the standards then one way to go (short of acquiring the standards) is indeed to match to the Akan paints. There will be a margin of error by two stages but probably not much more so than would have been introduced into the manufacturing processes of the period anyway.

For the purpose of 'nailing' the colours the primary evidence of the colours themselves should always be used (either by direct examination or via properly measured and communicated values) rather than depending on someone else's perception of the colours, however much VVS expertise they might have.

Online digital visual presentations of swatches set against brush outs or FS decks, etc., would not be a reliable method of defining the paint colours accurately although that approach is often perfectly adequate for some modellers needs.

Generally speaking, and I'm not knocking anyone here, whilst the subject of colour is a familiar and integral part of all modelling for all modellers to a greater or lesser extent, very few enthusiasts with expertise in or access to the specific colours demonstrate a very thorough understanding of colour science and paint chemistry or even use established methodologies to define and communicate the colours. A lot of assumptions are made and a lot of very complex and multi-faceted aspects reduced to questionable simplifications. Adopting a more disciplined and scientific approach would probably remove a lot of the heat from arguments based on individual subjective perception. This is an important responsibility for those gurus concerned because most modellers do not have the resources or raw data to pursue this demanding approach themselves. Their informed choices are dependent on the quality of the information output from those who do.

Regards

Nick

Thanks for that Nick, so long story short if I said "I have x capital to invest to produce a range of VVS colours" where would one start?

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Adopting a more disciplined and scientific approach would probably remove a lot of the heat from arguments based on individual subjective perception.

One would hope so, but having read a bit about the subject that sounds like utopia. I have never seen a subject bring forth so much accusations and hate in the modeling world as Soviet VVS colours... I'm a bit surprised this thread hasn't descended into madness yet! My conclusion, like yours, is that everyone is more or less wrong and both "sides" that exist today rely on more or less inexact science. You should just go with a consistent standard you like. :)

For modellers there is also the familiarity factor to consider - should you paint your aircraft the most accurate colour, or should you paint it the way everyone expect it to look. That Lagg sample in this thread is found everywhere on the web and that's the reference most people have so your plane will look a bit "odd" if you paint it any other way, even if you have found evidence for that just *your* Lagg had different paint. (I'm not saying the sample is wrong, but it may very well be less exact than assumed).

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Ha ha! Another way of saying don't waffle on so much! :sleeping:

1. Approach those who have the extant standards to see whether they can be borrowed or arrangements made to have them properly examined and measured to accurately record their colour values and assess any deterioration. There are specialist companies/consultants with the necessary equipment who will do this for a fee, and I'm sure Russia will have them too; or

2. Failing that, invest in a set of the Akan colours, brush them out as measurable samples and conduct the same process, matching to those instead.

Approach 1 is the most reliable with the only margin of error being the question of deterioration but perhaps more difficult to achieve depending on how receptive the owners are. Approach 2 is more easily achievable and probably good enough for modelling but subject to the presumption/verification that the Akan are indeed good, close matches to the originals.

Regards

Nick

Edited by Nick Millman

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even in Russia I'm sure

Regards

Nick

Careful there. Mr. Pillawski alienated the Russians and looked what happened!

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One would hope so, but having read a bit about the subject that sounds like utopia. I have never seen a subject bring forth so much accusations and hate in the modeling world as Soviet VVS colours... I'm a bit surprised this thread hasn't descended into madness yet! My conclusion, like yours, is that everyone is more or less wrong and both "sides" that exist today rely on more or less inexact science. You should just go with a consistent standard you like. :)

For modellers there is also the familiarity factor to consider - should you paint your aircraft the most accurate colour, or should you paint it the way everyone expect it to look. That Lagg sample in this thread is found everywhere on the web and that's the reference most people have so your plane will look a bit "odd" if you paint it any other way, even if you have found evidence for that just *your* Lagg had different paint. (I'm not saying the sample is wrong, but it may very well be less exact than assumed).

In terms of a general approach to the subject I don't think that is utopia but in terms of this particular subject matter I understand exactly what you mean. What surprises is how sometimes those with the best primary source information are so resistant to adopting an objective, scientific approach to disseminating it. Sometimes it is because they have no deep interest in the science of colour and the data is ancillary to their main interests but it is still surprising how often they deny access to those who do and/or are quite happy to contradict or offer opinions on the subject without citing actual evidence beyond opinion conveyed by ownership. Oneupmanship? Possibly. The best solution for modellers would perhaps be if the two sides could collaborate, share each others data without rancour and use it to update - where necessary - their own outputs.

Your second paragraph makes a very good point. The expectation consensus is quite powerful and that in itself can make the objective approach an uphill struggle. Personally, I like the way that Japanese modellers tend to take a more pragmatic approach to colour, allowing for and accepting individual interpretation (because there are so many infinites and unknowns) but at the same time making it clear that it is a personal choice and not trotting out that old cliché of presenting a few hours of internet research as a definitive conclusion.

Regards

Nick

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Careful there. Mr. Pillawski alienated the Russians and looked what happened!

Well "dancho", I meant no disrespect. What I meant is that I have no first hand knowledge of colour measurement laboratories or consultants in that country. I shall amend my comment accordingly.

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If anyone cares to loan us a set of the appropriate VVS colour standards or, barring that, a set of AKAN brushouts we'll have our paint manufacturer do matches and get them into production in our Colourcoats range (which would also get me out of the line of fire in this and other threads!). :thumbsup:

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HI

As Graham cautions, there has been quite some confusion caused by the work of Erik Pilawskii, he of the very bright blue and lurid green fame

If this means nothing to you, then a read through this thread would explain the controversy

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1071.0

There are Tamiya acrylic mixes, but have you seen this

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html

this is a series of colour chips

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html

this has humbrol mixes for light blue

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/humbrol/light-blues.htm

and greens

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/humbrol/greens.htm

there is a Revell paint that is a good match for AMT-1 "coffee with milk" but I'd have to dig out the details. [You'd need that for your Pe-8..]

If you are planning of doing a few VVS planes I'd recommend joining Soviet Warplanes, there's a LOT of information on the site and members are helpful. There are a few members here as well.

oh, here's a pic [from thread below] of a chuck of a LaGG3 preserved in Finland, in AMT-4 green, AMT-6 black and AMT-7 blue.

lagg3-fus-fin.jpg

HTH

T

ps there is this thread here too, but leads to the same links

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/72892-wwii-vvs-colours/

Really useful links, thanks.

Massimo's research appears very complete and it obviously isn't as simple a task as wandering down to my local model shop and having paints ready to be bought off the shelf.

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted, the thread's been really informative for someone just getting back into the hobby again. ALL of the links posted have been really useful, not just those in the post I've quoted.

Many thanks to all.

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Academic(ish) question, having read through that SovietWarplanes thread and the commentary here, if one were to produce a new range of VVS colours - and use the expertise of those who disagree with Erik Pilawski - how much certainty could be brought to the mix (sic) in terms of nailing the colours?

Beware the Dark Side of the Force young Skywalker :banghead:

From Nick Millman.....Personally, I like the way that Japanese modellers tend to take a more pragmatic approach to colour,

I'm with the Japanese - I thought that this was a hobby - a relaxing diversion from the strains of everyday life... :coolio:

Ken

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A hobby is just work for which you don't get paid. Trying to find what really happened in history, in this case colours, is much more fun than just sitting back and slapping gunk on regardless. Plus it makes for more interesting threads than "yeah, OK, whatever, do what you like" repeated ad nausea.

What would all these specialist producers do if we all just made the kits as they came in the box and used household Dulux to paint them. (Dulux? Does that date me?)

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I'm with the Japanese - I thought that this was a hobby - a relaxing diversion from the strains of everyday life... :coolio:

Ken

That would explain the Sailor Moon outfit then...

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Two things for UK modellers:

1. As Martin states above, you'll now be able to buy AKAN aqueous acrylic paints in the UK via Coastal Craft. We're happy to be working with them, and they'll be at the Huddersfield Show on the 17th of February. We'll also continue to serve our UK customers via mail order. USPS airmail rates for small packets to the UK are still a good deal, but there was a hefty rate increase last weekend.

2. Although AKAN will continue to produce the aqueous acrylics (they are subject to fewer postal restrictions), they are drawing down their old enamel stocks and increasingly moving over to a new acrylic lacquer line (the base paints are manufactured by Dupont and others in Benelux). A number of new acrylic lacquer colours were released in the last month or so, including unfaded variants of some of the recent VVS tactical colours. They're easier to create/mix and ship from Moscow than the water-based paints when the temperatures get below -15C...

We've been testing the new acrylic lacquers, and they are very tough. We will be selling AKAN's own brand thinner, but they also work very well with Tamiya's lacquer thinners. I've brushed and airbrushed with good results over the last couple of weeks. The finish is satin/gloss. The new paints come in 10ml bottles rather than the 15ml ones for the aqueous line, so they are more expensive.

These new paints will be available from Linden Hill in the next 2/3 weeks. We have two large shipments en route from Moscow. We will be unable to send the new paints to some countries in the EU. We'll have more specifics on this next month (UK should be OK).

http://www.lindenhillimports.com/akan.htm

Edited by Linden Hill

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Dennis

I'm interested as to any conclusions you have regarding the results of your brush-outs especially as AKAN paints are rather rare in the UK (to me at least).

Given that Humbrol enamels are the most widely available range, are there any decent comparables?

Regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor my interest in this came about as I decided to build an Aeropoxy Yak 3, I asked around for advice on Britmodeller and this was the result.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/55979-yak-3-colours/?hl=aeropoxy

I am not at all happy with the final colours the AMT-11/12 are far too light, looking at the "chips" I made at the time the Humbrol paints that come closest are H32 for AMT-12 and H126 for AMT-11, I did not find a close match for AMT-7 but MM2126 serves even though it is again too light.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/53979-yak-3/page-2?hl=aeropoxy

I am once again intrigued so I will have to revisit this subject.

Cheers

Dennis

Edited by spitfire

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If anyone cares to loan us a set of the appropriate VVS colour standards or, barring that, a set of AKAN brushouts we'll have our paint manufacturer do matches and get them into production in our Colourcoats range (which would also get me out of the line of fire in this and other threads!). :thumbsup:

Hi John, what size brushout would you like, if the paints that I have are still workable that is, and where should I sent them ?

Cheers

Dennis

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Wow, I think I've finally found a definition for 'Chutzpah'.

If anyone cares to loan us a set of the appropriate VVS colour standards or, barring that, a set of AKAN brushouts we'll have our paint manufacturer do matches and get them into production in our Colourcoats range (which would also get me out of the line of fire in this and other threads!). :thumbsup:

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Which one - Amodel or Zvezda??? :whistle:

pe-8_02.jpg

.. or Contrail vacform........

Pe-8_22.jpg

Sorry for butting in......

Ken

Show off!

Best Regards,

Jason

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It seems to me that at this point, the questions seems to be more about how dark or light the colours should be, the "shade", not the "hue", or basic colour. For example, some have suggested/complained that the AKAN colours look too dark. They seem a bit dark to me - however, this may simply be due to the fact that we're accustomed to seeing lighter (and very possibly incorrect shades) of these same colours, and that AKAN have indeed gotten it correct. Although the question of VVS colours may seem like a minefield to those who haven't plunged themselves into it, as a veteran of some VVS colours online wars, I can say that the situation is better than it was even five years ago, when modellers were debating about whether or not brown/green and dark green/green were used as opposed to the prescribed black/green (AMT-6/AMT-4). This has now been pretty much settled (brown/green and dark green/green were not used), except for some outlying opinions (Mr. Pilawskii, for example). As Ken says, this is a hobby, but I agree with Graham that as serious modellers we should attempt to be as accurate as possible, instead of just slathering on whatever paint happens to be handy. There is a middle ground between an obsessive need for an unobtainable absolute accuracy, and a "it kind of looks Okay" attitude. I'll let all know when I've found it!

Regards,

Jason

Edited by Learstang

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It seems to me that at this point, the questions seems to be more about how dark or light the colours should be, the "shade", not the "hue", or basic colour. For example, some have suggested/complained that the AKAN colours look too dark. They seem a bit dark to me - however, this may simply be due to the fact that we're accustomed to seeing lighter (and very possibly incorrect shades) of these same colours, and that AKAN have indeed gotten it correct. Although the question of VVS colours may seem like a minefield to those who haven't plunged themselves into it, as a veteran of some VVS colours online wars, I can say that the situation is better than it was even five years ago, when modellers were debating about whether or not brown/green and dark green/green were used as opposed to the prescribed black/green (AMT-6/AMT-4). This has now been pretty much settled (brown/green and dark green/green were not used), except for some outlying opinions (Mr. Pilawskii, for example). As Ken says, this is a hobby, but I agree with Graham that as serious modellers we should attempt to be as accurate as possible, instead of just slathering on whatever paint happens to be handy. There is a middle ground between an obsessive need for an unobtainable absolute accuracy, and a "it kind of looks Okay" attitude. I'll let all know when I've found it!

Regards,

Jason

Although shade is sometimes used that way, strictly speaking it means variations of a particular hue made by adding increments of black to it. Adding white to the basic colour is called tinting to create tints. What you are describing is the lightness or value of the hue (sometimes called tone), which in this case is dark to begin with!

The reason the Akan colours appear "too" dark might be a combination of being matched full-size and, possibly, of reflecting the age-darkened binders of the original paint swatches. Scaling a colour is one of the most difficult things to get right and where it is attempted in the manufacture of paint matched to a full-size standard the result often seems to be colours which are too bright, too light and/or saturated in appearance.

Nick

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Hello!

... What surprises is how sometimes those with the best primary source information are so resistant to adopting an objective, scientific approach to disseminating it. Sometimes it is because they have no deep interest in the science of colour and the data is ancillary to their main interests but it is still surprising how often they deny access to those who do and/or are quite happy to contradict or offer opinions on the subject without citing actual evidence beyond opinion conveyed by ownership. Oneupmanship?

Would you mind elaborating somewhat who you are addressing with the note above? Like "... deny access..."? Perhaps fedupism is the answer for your question.

VVS paint chemistry. I very much would like to read more, but no-one is writing.

In my opinion Erik Pilawskii may be quite correct when he says nitrocellulose laquers were used also on the metal planes. Case in point is the Il-2. Wood, steel, fabric and aluminum surfaces. Was the solution to overpaint any- and everything with the glyptal-based primer 138? This red (lead red -type colour) primer could be painted on steel, aluminium, wood and fabric. Soviet-era painting handbooks write that nitrocellulose does need special primer on aluminium/metal surfaces. Glyptal being one. So yes, I think nitrocellulose paints on Il-2 might be plausible. If you paint the (M)-138 darkish red only partially over with green cellulose paint we get the "brown" and green camo on Il-2. Would there have been such planes when there were a rush to get planes to the front (say before Kursk)? I am not able to answer. In any case cellulose dopes dry much quicker than other paint types.

Were A-xx series oil enamels? Or were they actually pentaphtal-type alkyds? For some reason a 1974 Soviet paint handbook lists pentaphtal PF-19 as former A-21, A-23, A-24, A-26, A-28, A-32, A-33 and A-36! See this thread which did not bring much discussion:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17492&highlight=

I also posted there something about the AMT/AGT/NC-5133 and AII/NC-5134 lineage. The NC-513x cellulose(?) laquers are still procuded? And what makes me scratch my head is that the translator robots (no, I am not fluent with Russian) seem to show that AII/NC-5134 nitrocellulose laquers/paints had alkyd addition?

And for the prospective paint producers. In a Soviet wooden aircraft structure handbook (translated mostly from British original!) there is chapter of Soviet paints and dopes (Later addendum: the paint chapter deals with Soviet materials and finishing systems only. The referred pigments are not British!!). The book is from 1945 and gives list of the pigments (few in number) used then. So certainly not an anachronism. I believe that even Nick Millman would be satisifed if hobby paints used the same pigments than the originals? The pics below are picked from my posting at scalemodels.ru. I cannot access the originals at my laptop computer as it is in comatosis. As is the older desktop computer. This one working has Windows 8 and nothing much else at present. The book itself should be somewhere in the Internet where also I downloaded it years ago. Some sent a direct link then at a forum, though.

http://s4.postimage.org/u750icx7x/pigmenty1.jpg

http://s3.postimage.org/c13eij2nn/pigmenty2.jpg

http://s3.postimage.org/rt30jbd4j/pigmenty3.jpg

http://s4.postimage.org/4sg4wgeul/pigmenty0.jpg

Cheers,

Kari

PS Why there is requirement for such a high knowledge about the chemistry of the Soviet paints? No one has ever answered my question (posed once or twice in threads on this very forum) were USAAF P-39, P-40B/E etc. paints synthetic (alkyd, Dupont - Dulux, ref: http://utahrails.net/dupont-paint.php ) or cellulose (DuPont - Duco) for example! Not even Nick even though he possesess so much color data for the US paints. Certainly the different paints would weather differently for example.

PPS The 1974 Soviet paint handbook lists the Soviet colours standard colour numbers (á la FS 595). Seen also in the pictures in the linked paint chemistry thread ( the "No xxx" numbers behind color words). There are prominent people even at this forum who insist that Soviet Union did not ever have colours standards (etalons). man-vegetables, yes there was. Were the samples used generally and how many knew of them during the years of secrecy is another matter. I have seen digital colour table with the standard numbers on one Russian paint firm homesite. Might even find it again, but I need my sleep tonight.

Edited by Kari Lumppio

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Kario,

alkyds are a type of paint binder (of which there are many types) and sometimes used as a term to market paints with that type of binder. The invention of alkyd resin binders in the 1920s advanced auto-oxidative cure chemistry for paint and coatings. Alkyd resin binders can be used in paints, varnishes, enamels and lacquers but not all of these types containing alkyd binders are described as alkyd.

Cellulose paints and lacquers can be - and were - used on metal. Cellulose lacquers developed from the automobile industry and were used extensively in the aircraft manufacturing industry as light metals were increasingly used for aircraft construction. Cellulose dopes were used on fabric.

The use of nitrocellulose (cellulose and nitrate) in paints and dopes in wartime created a conflict because of the essential use of that material in the explosives industry. For fabrics cellulose acetate dopes were therefore gradually preferred but the use of nitrocellulose within lacquers largely drove the development of synthetic binders. I don't think there was the same imperative within the USA to drive the development of synthetics and perhaps the abandonment of camouflage painting also had an effect on this.

The standard reference on this subject (chemistry of coatings) is almost 400 pages long. It is impossible to precis all the possible permutations of the chemistry of coatings. There are paint colour standards (which sometimes specified composition and sometimes not), paint standards, procurement standards and specifications, commercial paint manufacturing processes and aviation industry application methods, all of which overlap to varying degrees and were practiced in different ways and at different times in different countries. A literal moving feast. This makes the subject very complex to study even before the paucity of official and commercial data from the period is considered. Now, seventy years later we are mostly dealing with tip of the iceberg stuff.

On the question regarding US aircraft finishing I have in fact posted on this in previous threads here. Spec 24114 (Oct 1940), for example, set out the requirement for one coat of zinc chromate primer and two coats of camouflage lacquer. In Dec 1941 this was amended to permit the use of two coats of lacquer (spec 14105) or one coat of thinned enamel (spec 14109) to provide a coating of approximately 1 mm thickness. As with the RAF a rather complicated system was specified to mark the aircraft to record the finish used. The lacquers most commonly used at this time had a nitrocellulose or pyroxin base. The choice of lacquer or enamel appears to have been left to the aircraft manufacturer.

TO 07-1-1 (8 Apr 1941) stated that:-

"Either of these types (lacquer or enamel) may be used, subject to provisions of subpara.b. It will be noted that the use of enamel, camouflage, Spec.14109 on metal surfaces requires the use of but one (1) coat of enamel and that no primer coat is necessary."

(subpara.b referred to the requirement not to mix the two types on the same airframe).

After problems with paint retention this was subsequently superceded by reinstating the requirement to apply a primer coat with enamel finishes too, the cause of some ongoing confusion and non-compliance (e.g. Northrop Black Widow).

I have not yet been able to find copies of specs 14105 and 14109 but other documents suggest that the lacquer used was cellulose based.

Chemistry comes into the subject more particularly when extant applied paint samples are being used to determine the appearance of colour standards. Those citing colour matches for extant samples should be cognisant of the chemistry aspect (and the condition of the samples) and this applies as much to the subject of the VVS as any other air force. Samples are sometimes cited with the qualification that the paint is well-preserved or in good condition but the evidence for that is seldom forthcoming. Sometimes it appears to be more a statement of faith than science. It is quite feasible for paint appearance to have shifted significantly in terms of colour whilst still appearing to be well-preserved or in good condition but the starting point is to clean the sample and remove any surface oxidisation and chalking. It is not always clear that this has been done before comparison matches are made.

If you have specific general questions on chemistry of coatings I'll be happy to try to answer them via pm but my knowledge of the Soviet industry is limited.

Regards

Nick

Edited by Nick Millman

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Informative post, Nick, thank you for posting! You obviously know more about the technical aspects of colour/paints than I do (although I'm trying to learn more as I'd like to write a book on VVS colours, there being no up-to-date one in English that I know of). Most of my "direct" knowledge of VVS colours comes from reading a translation (some of which I've done myself) of a small book by Mikhail Orlov, an expert on VVS GPW colours.

Regards,

Jason

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I'd like to add one other factor to the mention of AKAN colours appearing dark, and that is with particular reference to the introduction of the grey colours schemes midwar. Camouflage changes are not brought about without specific intentions. This was driven, as in other air forces, by the move from a defensive approach of keeping the aircraft hidden on the ground, or when viewed from above, to a more offensive approach of being less obvious when airborne. The same can be seen in the Luftwaffe, RAF and even USAAF, with appropriate qualifiers as no two examples were identical. The appearance of the two greys should therefore be lighter than the preceding camouflage, as indeed is seen in many b&w photos. The AKAN colours do not give this impression.

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Thanks Jason. If you want to delve deeper into the technical aspects then as an introduction I can recommend 'The Chemistry and Physics of Coatings' by A R Marrion. Although intended for chemistry graduates and containing some pure chemistry and physics there is also much accessible data in plain language that will provide a thorough understanding of how paints and coatings work, their types, what affects them and how and why they degrade. There is also a good glossary, although not an exhaustive one. As with all such subjects the intrusion of commercial aspects means that certain things are understood in certain ways and industry terminology and conventions are not always consistent, especially across frontiers.

But paint technology has developed and whereas Mr Marrion's book is concerned with the present day and available in regularly updated editions it is also worth investing in 'period' books on the subject that can often be found very cheaply in second hand book shops. These give a good insight into earlier technology and practices (and terms) which is sometimes key to understanding how and why things were done in the aviation industry at that time.

I have colour indexes and compendiums for pigments so if you have any specific questions about the characteristics of the pigments used in the VVS paints I may be able to help there and am always happy to do so if I can. The same pigments are often identified by many different terms which can cause problems in nailing them down.

Regards

Nick

Edited by Nick Millman

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Thank you, Nick! I may need to look for that book. I do believe there is a need for a good English-language book on VVS colours, aimed particularly at the modeller, but whether I'm that person or not remains to be seen. I need to finish my Il-2 book first.

Graham, as I understand the reasoning behind the change, the VVS never did particularly like the black/green scheme, which was imposed upon them by the NKAP, the Soviet Air Ministry. It was fine for camouflaging aircraft on the ground from the marauding Luftwaffe early in the war, but even then, it was a liability whilst in the air as the black/green aircraft stood out like a sore thumb. Through testing, the Soviets decided that black really didn't exist in nature, not even in shadows, therefore it was felt that Dark Grey (AMT-12) was a more appropriate colour. With the addition of Grey Blue (AMT-11) to this colour, you had what today would be called an "air superiority scheme", and used on the fighter aeroplanes. Other aircraft, such as the Il-2 Shturmovik, went to a Dark Grey (AMT-12), Green (AMT-4), and Light Brown (really a tan) (AMT-1) on the topsides, whilst both schemes retained the blue undersides (AMT-7). I realise you know all this, but some of the other readers of this thread may not.

Best Regards,

Jason

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Agreed: but whatever the reasoning behind it, an air superiority scheme wouldn't call for dark colours. Similarly you refer to AMT1 a Light Brown, whereas the recommended Revell match is quite dark.

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