VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War

[Learstang]

My feelings exactly, Massimo (especially as my colours may be a bit light!). Those colours look good, Dennis - it'll be great to see them on a finished Il-2. Pip, you may be right about the Gunship Gray; it is lighter than the AKAN AMT-12, which looks almost black, but when used in combination with MM Interior Green it's about the same tone, which is what you see in photographs.

Regards,

Jason

[Seawinder]

My feelings exactly, Massimo (especially as my colours may be a bit light!). Those colours look good, Dennis - it'll be great to see them on a finished Il-2. Pip, you may be right about the Gunship Gray; it is lighter than the AKAN AMT-12, which looks almost black, but when used in combination with MM Interior Green it's about the same tone, which is what you see in photographs.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

I only made the suggestion about the AMT-12 based on my own experience: I used RLM 74 on my Il-2. It looked okay while I was doing the painting, but later, after it was finished, I decided I would have liked it better somewhat darker..

Pip

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,

I only made the suggestion about the AMT-12 based on my own experience: I used RLM 74 on my Il-2. It looked okay while I was doing the painting, but later, after it was finished, I decided I would have liked it better somewhat darker..

Sometimes AMT-12 looks very dark on photos, nearly black, sometimes it is undistinguishable from green or even lighter. I suppose that the color fades quickly.

I suspect that in some case they utilized black instead of grey (wooden parts of Il-2s of Z. 1 and tails of Tu-2s).

Its oil equivalent, being very matt, appears always undistinguishable or lighter.

Regards

Massimo

[Seawinder]

Hi all,

Sometimes AMT-12 looks very dark on photos, nearly black, sometimes it is undistinguishable from green or even lighter. I suppose that the color fades quickly.

I suspect that in some case they utilized black instead of grey (wooden parts of Il-2s of Z. 1 and tails of Tu-2s).

Its oil equivalent, being very matt, appears always undistinguishable or lighter.

Regards

Massimo

That's comforting, Massimo, thanks!

Have you seen the same variation in AMT-11? If so, the whole late war scheme might not deserve the large amount of contention to which it's been subjected.

Pip

Edited March 18, 2013 by pnmoss

[spitfire]

Hi Jason.

I only made the suggestion about the AMT-12 based on my own experience: I used RLM 74 on my Il-2. It looked okay while I was doing the painting, but later, after it was finished, I decided I would have liked it better somewhat darker..

Pip

I'd forgotten all about the RLM greys, and I used RLM 74 on my one and only "real" VVS build !

Cheers

Dennis

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

a question for who has seen the wreck of the Il-2 wing in Pinemyra:

was it possible to understand if the grey part visible on tue top of this photo is really a grey paint, or what else?

Regards

Massimo

[Homebee]

Find on the French forum Master 194 http://www.master194.com/forum/index.php . Lost the direct link

New as reliable source for AKAN paints in the EEC: Hobby Colours

http://hobbycolours.com/index.php?cPath=132&osCsid=e92d4ad096264a45554bbb98ddc4273e

V.P.

[spitfire]

The people at Hobby Colours are very good, I bought quite a few AKAN enamels from them plus paint charts.

Cheers

Dennis

[stevehnz]

Having been nudged back to this thread from the OD41 thread, it occurred to me it was a good place to seek opinion as to the colours used on the 1/48 Tamiya Il-2m build in the July Airfix Model World. Lucas Rizzi has used a selection of Tamiya paints, XF-24 Dark Grey for I guess AMT12, XF-58 Olive Green for AMT4 & 4/1 XF-52 Flat Earth with XF-59 Desert yellow for AMT1 with XF-23 Light Blue for the AMT7 undersides. Wondering if anyone familar with the article cares to comment of what they think of his colour choice. To my eye, in the mag they seem to look as I imagine they should but I'm a very inexpert judge.

Steve

[Learstang]

I would be more than happy to put in my tuppence about this Il-2 (big surprise there!). Unfortunately, I do not have the magazine in question at hand. Steve, would you or could post at least one picture of the Il-2 in question.

Regards,

Jason

[stevehnz]

I'll scan a couple of pictures from the article, decided to post them here, I'll take them off if there is a problem, they're only a couple of pages from a 7 page article. Anyone wanting the whole article should purchase a back issue from here, these are intended be illustrative of the colours used only & on my monitor appear to be perhaps only slightly more washed out than in the mag

Steve

Edited August 26, 2013 by stevehnz

[Learstang]

I'll give you my semi-educated response to the colours used in this build, Steve (thank you for posting the pictures!). The colours don't look bad, probably helped by the fact that this is an extremely well-built model of an excellent kit. To my eyes, the dark grey (AMT-12 Dark Grey) should be a little darker, the brown (AMT-1 Light Brown) should be less reddish (or perhaps it should be more yellowish - the mix used for this was apparently 80% Tamiya XF-52 Flat Earth and 20% XF-59 Desert Yellow). The green (AMT-4 Green) looks about right, although mine tends to be more olive. The undersides blue (AMT-7 Blue) looks good also, similar to the Testors Model Master Russian Topside Blue that I use (the AKAN colour is darker, a bit too much so for me). The interior colour is Tamiya XF-22 RLM Grey, which actually looks pretty good in the photographs, if a bit light, although I would think in person the RLM Grey would be a bit too greenish. A-14 Steel Grey, which was the commonly-used Soviet GPW interior paint, was a very neutral grey, with no hint of any other colours. Overall the colours look pretty good, and much better than the green/dark reddish-brown monstrosities that were the norm for VVS models not so long ago (to those who may have Il-2's or other GPW models in these colours, don't feel bad - I painted some of my models in these same colours).

I've no doubt already said it on this thread, but the colours I use are all Testors Model Master flat enamels, which work well with my airbrush, are easily obtainable in the States, and dry quickly. I can't abide normal acrylics for airbrushing (they seem to immediately and semi-permanently clog any airbrush I use them with), and lacquer acrylics are a bit too exotic for me. I don't like mixing paints (acrylics or otherwise) or having to use exotic thinners for my colours. The specific colours I use (at the moment) are MM Interior Green for the AMT-4 Green, MM Gunship Gray for the AMT-12 Dark Grey, MM '42 Afrika Dunkelgrau for the AMT-1 Light Brown (although I may move to MM Israeli Armor [sic] Sand/Gray - it's a bit darker), MM Russian Topside Blue for the AMT-7 Blue, and MM Neutral Gray for the A-14 Steel Grey. The wheel discs were probably painted green, so I use MM Medium Green for these. To those of you who have read this whole post, good for you, and I hope I haven't prated on too much.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Steve and Jason,

to tell the truth, I'm not convinced of the brown, We've long discussed this shade without reaching a full certainty, despite the availability of a pair of wrecks, but the color given by the Akan catalogue is more greyish and not reddish at all.

The underside color, although not well visible in the photos of the model, looks too light and greenish; if the same color is used both on metallic and wooden parts it has to be AMT-7, visible on the chips above.

Of course this color can be subject to fading, but I don't think that what we see on the photos of the model is fully convincing.

Regards

Massimo

[Nick Millman]

As a matter of interest, what are the pigments as listed for AMT-1 if included in the Russian pages linked in the OD thread? I thought they had been given in this thread but could not find them.

If known it will throw some light on the inherent character of the colour.

Thanks

Nick

[stevehnz]

post #44 in this thread, #41 in the OD thread, information wasted on me but it'd nice if you could make something of it Nick.

Thanks to Jason & Massimo for your input on the IL-2 article in AMW, it may not lead to a definitive colour call but it is a help to at least get in the ball park.

Steve.

Edited August 26, 2013 by stevehnz

[spitfire]

Hi Steve, I also did not have access to the magazine and I would go with Jason and Massimo's comments, the completed model looks fantastic and I would be happy if it was the result of my efforts, however if you take it that the AKAN colours are correct then the AMT-1 should be less red, the AMT-12 looks more like AMT-11 and the undersides look too light. Having said that when I get round to building mine it will probably bear little resemblance to the AKAN colours either as I will use available Humbrol/Xtracolour/WEM Colourcoats/MM paints.

Cheers

Dennis

[Nick Millman]

post #44 in this thread, #41 in the OD thread, information wasted on me but it'd nice if you could make something of it Nick.

Thanks to Jason & Massimo for your input on the IL-2 article in AMW, it may not lead to a definitive colour call but it is a help to at least get in the ball park.

Steve.

Thanks Steve. I don't read Russian! Could somewhat translate the information for AMT-1 please?

Nick

[dragonlanceHR]

Hi Nick,

hawing browsed thru Kari's links, apart from four pictures named pigments, which list the pigments the Soviets used, I can't find any actual paint formulations.

On scalemodels.ru I found the formulation for AMT-6 black, curtesy of poster Mgolovanov (translated via Google translator):

"So I figured at leisure light fastness of black nitrocellulose dope AMT-6, knowing the composition of pigments:
* 15% of soot
* 60% ocher
* White Zinc 25%
plus kolloksilinovaya base (collodion (coloid? - my note) with the plasticizer, the paint is dissolved in the liquid acetone)."

Now, trying to read Kari's scans, ochre pigment is described as Fe(OH)₃ ; Fe₃O₃; FeO-Fe₂O₃ often with some quantity of manganese oxide. I know, it's a general description of ochre pigment.

Vedran

[dragonlanceHR]

This site gives a pigment mix for 4BO armour paint.

"RKKA paint mixing instructions from 1941 specify that Protective Green 4BO was a mixture of 40-60% yellow ochre, 15-20% zinc chromate, 10% ultramarine and 10-20% white."

4BO was a official colour standard from 1941. AMT-4 was an aviation paint matched to 4BO colour standard. So, does that mean that the pigments were the same, eventually more finely ground, the only difference was in the paint base and solvents?

Vedran

[Massimo Tessitori]

On scalemodels.ru I found the formulation for AMT-6 black, curtesy of poster Mgolovanov (translated via Google translator):

"So I figured at leisure light fastness of black nitrocellulose dope AMT-6, knowing the composition of pigments:

* 15% of soot

* 60% ocher

* White Zinc 25%

plus kolloksilinovaya base (collodion (coloid? - my note) with the plasticizer, the paint is dissolved in the liquid acetone)."

Now, trying to read Kari's scans, ochre pigment is described as Fe(OH)₃ ; Fe₃O₃; FeO-Fe₂O₃ often with some quantity of manganese oxide. I know, it's a general description of ochre pigment.

Looks the description of a dark greyish brown or olive drab, not a black.

Regards

Massimo

[Nick Millman]

Hi Nick,

hawing browsed thru Kari's links, apart from four pictures named pigments, which list the pigments the Soviets used, I can't find any actual paint formulations.

On scalemodels.ru I found the formulation for AMT-6 black, curtesy of poster Mgolovanov (translated via Google translator):

"So I figured at leisure light fastness of black nitrocellulose dope AMT-6, knowing the composition of pigments:

* 15% of soot

* 60% ocher

* White Zinc 25%

plus kolloksilinovaya base (collodion (coloid? - my note) with the plasticizer, the paint is dissolved in the liquid acetone)."

Now, trying to read Kari's scans, ochre pigment is described as Fe(OH)₃ ; Fe₃O₃; FeO-Fe₂O₃ often with some quantity of manganese oxide. I know, it's a general description of ochre pigment.

Vedran

Thanks Vedran - those last cover the range of Pigment Yellows 42 and 43 which are hydrated iron oxides like goethite, typically yellowish browns, to Pigment Browns 6 and 7 which are iron oxides, typically brownish-reds, and even Pigment Reds 101 and 102 which are red oxides. But within this range there are also dark purplish-browns close to iron oxide blacks like Pigment Black 11. They can all be made synthetically and the actual hue of the pigments controlled during manufacture by various processes. Reading between the lines it sounds as though the description "ochre" was being used as a generic for "brown" and that the actual pigment compositions were optional rather than mandatory, again probably being matched to a master colour swatch. That would almost certainly result in brown paints which were similar in appearance when applied but which degraded over time in different directions .

FWIW I would be inclined to focus on the appearance of the original swatch in the paint colour standards as the intended and "typical" paint colour rather than puzzle over all the possible permutations of degraded paint colour on the extant artifacts.

Nick

[Learstang]

Nick, that's supposedly already been done with the AKAN line of paints, which were compared with a well-preserved edition of the Albom Nakrasok. I don't know if you're familiar with this book, but it was published in 1948 and contained, amongst other paints/colours, swatches of the aviation paints used during the GPW. The feeling amongst many modellers, including myself, is that the resulting AKAN colours, especially the acrylics, look too dark on scale models. However, they may be correct for fresh paint on the full-sized aeroplanes. "Scale effect", perhaps? From what I've read, what was done regarding the paints at the factory is that they were given two samples, or "etalons", and their colour needed to fall within that rather narrow range. As long as they did this, the paint was considered acceptable. I'm afraid I don't know how much the actual chemistry were standardised.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Am I the only one to find strange that a composition with 60% ochre and 25% zinc white is named as AMT-6 black?

Regards

Massimo

[Learstang]

Am I the only one to find strange that a composition with 60% ochre and 25% zinc white is named as AMT-6 black?

Regards

Massimo

It does seem a bit odd that you could get black from that combination, no matter what the remaining 15% additive is.

Regards,

Jason

[Old Man]

It does seem a bit odd that you could get black from that combination, no matter what the remaining 15% additive is.

Regards,

Jason

If the 'parts' refer to measure of weight, Sir, such as 15 pounds soot (lampblack), 65 pounds ocher, and 25 pounds zinc white, it might well work. Lampblack is very light in weight, and ocher very heavy, so the volume of 15 pounds of soot would be far greater than that of even 65 pounds of ocher.