Massimo Tessitori Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi Pip and Jason, it would be interesting to take a photo of chips of these colors aside the AMT-1 of AKAN to allow a comparison. Is this possible in some way? Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi, here is my old work with a direct comparison between Akan and Humbrol chips. The result were a bit different than those posted on the site because the real akan paints looked darker than the digital chips that I had utilized for the earlier comparison. Anyway, I suspect that these earlier digital chips give a more credible idea of the original colors, at least when faded to a medium degreee. Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi Pip and Jason, it would be interesting to take a photo of chips of these colors aside the AMT-1 of AKAN to allow a comparison. Is this possible in some way? Regards Massimo Hi Massimo. I can't be of any help on that because I've never bought any of the Akan AMT-1. I understand it's a very different color from the tan that seems to be the most prevalent interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi Pip, I see, this brown is a controversal one. It's difficult to imagine a color that is contemporary brownish grey, coffe and milk with milk prevailing, that contemporarily resemble to the chip of Akan and to the reddish brown described on some wrecks in Northern Europe. Besides it sometimes looks light and other times dark on the same photo of the same plane. At present time, my suspect is that there are two different colors; that is, A-21m for metal is darker and more saturate than the AMT-1. Tan is a compromise between these contrasting interpretations. Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Hi Pip, I see, this brown is a controversal one. It's difficult to imagine a color that is contemporary brownish grey, coffe and milk with milk prevailing, that contemporarily resemble to the chip of Akan and to the reddish brown described on some wrecks in Northern Europe. Besides it sometimes looks light and other times dark on the same photo of the same plane. At present time, my suspect is that there are two different colors; that is, A-21m for metal is darker and more saturate than the AMT-1. Tan is a compromise between these contrasting interpretations. Regards Massimo I will preface, Sir, by acknowledging my comments are amateur speculation of the rankest order. But could the answer perhaps be found in the pigments employed in the brown paint? I understand from comments in other threads here and on HyperScale that the 'brown' of the RAF, Dark Earth, had pigments which were particularly unstable, and especially prone to degrade in heat and under high UV light. It thus often came to present a much lighter brown in service than when originally applied. You refer to a 'reddish brown' on northern examples; if there is some tie between the paler brown and machines in service in southern theaters, perhaps greater exposure to heat and sun there might be a factor? Let me add that I very much enjoy your VVS colors site, though I have not been able to figure out the routine for signing up as a member there. Edited February 16, 2013 by Old Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi Old Man, it could be a matter of fading of the paint, but I have had the impression that the brown colors long exposed to the sun have become more saturate than those protected in the nakrasok alboom. Could it be that black pigments have faded and red/orange ones have been saturated? Or have the chips of the alboom darkened and lost saturation? Thank you for the appreciation for the Sovietwarplanes site. To subscribe there, one has to follow the routine, then write to me as soon as possible so I can find his subscription between the thousand made each week by spammers, confirm it and delete the other ones. Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Massimo, I can't make a comparison at this time, as I don't have any AKAN paints. I will probably purchase some shortly and then I'll be able to make a comparison with the paints I'm using (at the moment all Testors Model Master flat enamels). Regards, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Hi Jason, at present time the most reliable information for AMT-1 is its similarity to Revell 87. Unfortunately Revell paints are not sold in my town. It would be good that someone posts photos of chips where it is compared to Humbrol, Tamiya and other known chips. This don't solve the mistery for which this color appears much more contrasting on the rear fuselage and wings of Il-2s than on its front fuselage. Smokes can explain the darker appearence of the central fuselage sides, but not of the cowling. Besides the thing changes according to the factory producing the plane. We should take in consideration the appearence of A-21m to understand if its use can justify the thing. Another mysterious paint is the A-28m blue for metallic surfaces. The Nakrasok shows it very green, sort of Sky, but it's likely that it's altered. But it's unclear if it should resemble to AMT-7 or AII blue when new. None of the wrecks I've seen (on photos) seem to show greenish blue undersurfaces, and some of them were probably painted with that paint. At present time my opinion is that 65 should be an acceptable match, but how was really this paint 70 years ago? If I don't miss, Akan doesn't offer his interpretation of this paint, probably mr. Akanihin has the same doubts. Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Well I resisted posting for a while but I have been carrying on looking for the elusive AMT-1, Colors of the Falcons reckon AMT-1 to be 20324 ~ 20372, both light tan colours, with the following Humbrol mixes (from IPMS Stockholm) 20324 - Desert Brown - 6*Hu:110 + 5*Hu:34 + 3*Hu:121 + 1*Hu:113 - http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30324 20372 - Stone - 12*Hu:168 + 1*Hu:113 (7*Hu:187 + 3*Hu:129) - http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30372 From Massimos site AMT-1 - FS-26306 - Which is very similar to Revell 87 see here http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=26306 A21m - FS-34201 - Which is a greenish colour - http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34201 or FS36350 http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=36350 I've still been chipping away as well and hope to have some more results in a while, here's the latest, shot in natural light, the interesting ones are the WEM French colours (ACF5/9) which could pass for AMT-11 and 12 the ACF09 may be too blue. With Revell 87 Cheers Dennis Edited February 17, 2013 by spitfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Hi Dennis you are making an excellent job in collecting all those chips. About the FS colors that I've suggested on that page, if I remember well they are from an article of Orlov, and based on the Nakrasok; this is coherent to their resemblance to Revell 87. On the other hand, Kari Lumppio states A friend of mine has given FS30215 as comparison result for the brown on a Il-2wing. It's a wreck part at Tikkakoski museum storage room. 30215 is a saturate tan color, that could nearly be considered a red-brown and is not very far from the color utilized in the restoration of the Il-2 in Prague-Kbely. The following photos are of a plane found at Pinemyra, http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/pinemyra.html The brown looks saturate and not much lighter than the green. Note that it is painted over metal without a primer, so this probably represents A-21m, not AMT-1. So, tan is a compromise between these discording sources. Can it be that both Nakrasok and the wrecks show the same paint, aged in different way? The thing was discussed here too: http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?s=435ebac4da1b2a9274fc6d124e8a6740&showtopic=196449&st=20 Regards Massimo Edited February 17, 2013 by Massimo Tessitori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoz Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) "Colors of the Falcons" is a nice little booklet, but I understand that besides being based on material researched by Vakhlamov and Orlov, it also incorporates some ideas now generally discredited such as the "southern schemes". Picked up from Pilawskii's book non the less. There was a thread in the sovietwarplanes forum where one of the posters mentioned that he had been told by one of the authors (think it was Bob Migliardi; could be wrong) that they had picked up some info from EP's book (including the now infamous "southern scheme"), as well as from the two Russian authors' work. Might be worth to check that thread for further info. Regarding the "Colors of the Falcons" book, it can also be found on Ebay (that's where I got mine). And speaking of jokes, did you hear the one about the Finnish/Russian conspiracy regarding the use of silver paint in Russian aircraft during the winter war??? Ask EP for more... Edited February 17, 2013 by Panoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Hi Panoz, Yes, I wrote that post after the answer of Migliardi. He wrote the book on the basis of documents , notes and previous articles given by Hornat that, for what I heard, is not in good health. They included files from EP's page and, with every evidence, the articles of Orlov and Vaklamov. Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mholly Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) deleted Edited February 18, 2013 by mholly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mholly Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) Hi Dennis you are making an excellent job in collecting all those chips. About the FS colors that I've suggested on that page, if I remember well they are from an article of Orlov, and based on the Nakrasok; this is coherent to their resemblance to Revell 87. On the other hand, Kari Lumppio states 30215 is a saturate tan color, that could nearly be considered a red-brown and is not very far from the color utilized in the restoration of the Il-2 in Prague-Kbely. The following photos are of a plane found at Pinemyra, http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/pinemyra.html The brown looks saturate and not much lighter than the green. Note that it is painted over metal without a primer, so this probably represents A-21m, not AMT-1. So, tan is a compromise between these discording sources. Can it be that both Nakrasok and the wrecks show the same paint, aged in different way? The thing was discussed here too: http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?s=435ebac4da1b2a9274fc6d124e8a6740&showtopic=196449&st=20 Regards Massimo Massimo, Did it occur to your that "AMT-1/a-21m camo brown" as seen in these pictures may be actually ALG-5 primer? I'm quite surprised that you would consider FS30215 tan "nearly close to red brown" and "not very far" from brown applied on restored Il-2 in Kbely. Have you seen Kbely's Il-2? Another surprise is that after years you would call "Albom Nakrasok" just "Nakrasok". I don't think it's helpful to newcomers into the field of VVS coloration. Cheers, Mario in NYC Edited February 18, 2013 by mholly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Mario, Did it occur to your that "AMT-1/a-21m camo brown" as seen in these pictures may be actually ALG-5 primer? No, it looks a camo color, else it should be visible under the green band too. The scratches I see on the green part are light grey, probably natural metal. About the second photo, I have to check if it is the same plane. However the brown band at the tip is clearly part of the camouflage. I see the overposition of dark grey on the wing to the brown, but this doesn't necessarily mean it is a primer. I'm quite surprised that you would consider FS30215 tan "nearly close to red brown" and "not very far" from brown applied on restored Il-2 in Kbely. Have you seen Kbely's Il-2? However it is leather brown, a saturate color apparently well different from the one seen in the famous alboom. And I read somewhere that the plane in Kbely was repainted taking ispiration from a wreck in Finnish museum. Probably they weren't accurate and made it too reddish, but it is clear that they didn't find a grey brown. Another surprise is that after years you would call "Albom Nakrasok" just "Nakrasok". I don't think it's helpful to newcomers into the field of VVS coloration Another surprise is that you give importance to such a thing. I've always written alboom except this time, can't I make some abbreviations? Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustango70 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi, Here is a close up of that Pinemyra Il-2 wing.This photo is taken by me in 2009.I have also visited five other Il-2 crash sites in Norway. The brown colour is indeed a primer.Look how it is under the green colour also. Not just that.Here is the underside of the same wing. Close up.Notice some of the blue colour remains. Here is the underside of the other wing.Again the same primer. Here is couple of some Il-2 parts I have.These are from Gerdujavri Il-2. The green part is from a canopy and the brown one is from a wing.I rubbed a small spot on both parts with a Farecla G3 rubbing compound.I had to use flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustango70 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 And here are some photos from Gerdujavri Il-2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Very nice photographs - thank you! It would appear that the brownish colour(s) is aged ALG-1, which I understand was quite variable when fresh (yellow to orangeish, and even greenish depending on how much zinc chromate there was). Regards, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Mustang, this is very interesting, thank you for posting these excellent informations and images. If the reddish paint is a primer, are there some remains of the original brown paint? Is it the color on the hatch? From the photos, it seems that the red brown primer is on the outer surfaces only, not on inner surfaces. I see some grey-green also, is it due to a remain of blue over the primer, or what else? Is the factory number of the plane known? Are there traces of paint inside the gear bay and cockpit? Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Massimo, couldn't the grey-green be ALG-5 primer? Regards, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Tessitori Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Jason, it could be, but why to use two layers of primers overposed? And why none color on the inside surfaces? Regards Massimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Jason, it could be, but why to use two layers of primers overposed? And why none color on the inside surfaces? Regards Massimo Those are good questions, Massimo. I do remember the discussion on your website of some Il-2 wrecks in Kiev, and it seemed that the usage (or non-usage) of primers on Il-2's varied quite a bit. However, the use of two primers on the same surface doesn't make a lot of sense. Regards, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPNGROATS Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 WOW, quite a lot to consider the next time I build a soviet a/c of the Great Patriotic War...!! Cheers, ggc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) WOW, quite a lot to consider the next time I build a soviet a/c of the Great Patriotic War...!! Cheers, ggc As a long-time genuine VVS nut with an admittedly selfish interest in persuading as many modelbuilders as possible to join The Cause (the more enthusiasts there are, the more new kits will be released!), comments like this concern me. With all due respect for the participants (of which I'm one), long and complex threads like this tend to make matters seem more complicated than they really need to be - the term "minefield" has been used more than once in the past - and may have the effect of driving people away from the subject, rather than attracting them. Don't get me wrong - there's definitely value in such discussions, but from a modeller's perspective, does it really matter how many coats of primer were applied to Il-2 aircraft from a specific factory? Russian colour standards existed; Russian camouflage patterns were also standardized. Within my own narrow field of interest (Russian GPW single-engined fighters), there's not a lot of reason to be confused. Unless you can read Russian, the best on-line reference material is on Massimo Tessitori's sovietwarplanes.com site; here's an excellent place to start: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/ Feel welcome to join the forum there, or even just to lurk around and see what you can learn. Now, would you like to sign my petition to Airfix for a new-tool 1/72 Yak-9? John Edited February 19, 2013 by John Thompson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 As a long-time genuine VVS nut with an admittedly selfish interest in persuading as many modelbuilders as possible to join The Cause (the more enthusiasts there are, the more new kits will be released!), comments like this concern me. With all due respect for the participants (of which I'm one), long and complex threads like this tend to make matters seem more complicated than they really need to be - the term "minefield" has been used more than once in the past - and may have the effect of driving people away from the subject, rather than attracting them. Don't get me wrong - there's definitely value in such discussions, but from a modeller's perspective, does it really matter how many coats of primer were applied to Il-2 aircraft from a specific factory? Russian colour standards existed; Russian camouflage patterns were also standardized. Within my own narrow field of interest (Russian GPW single-engined fighters), there's not a lot of reason to be confused. Unless you can read Russian, the best on-line reference material is on Massimo Tessitori's sovietwarplanes.com site; here's an excellent place to start: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/ Feel welcome to join the forum there, or even just to lurk around and see what you can learn. Now, would you like to sign my petition to Airfix for a new-tool 1/72 Yak-9? John Well said John, but I'm afraid you've got the scale wrong for the Yak-9! Pip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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