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VVS colours in the Great Patriotic War


Bassplayer

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Hi there!

I have followed this thread with interest, having an ICM Lagg3 plus Zvezda La-5s and Yak-3 on the "to do" list.

I understand the controversy regarding the AMT 11, 12 07 colours and think the AKAN versions are dark. I was wondering if anybody knows whether the Yak-3 at Le Bourget had ever been repainted since it arrived in 1945? The museum website has some excellent colour photos of the Yak-3 being moved - some taken outdoors in bright sunlight - and it appears the topside colours are definitely blue-greys (unlike the WEM colours) and there is a fair contrast between the two. They are certainly not as dark as AKAN samples (caution, I know - how true are colour chips on a computer monitor?) Anybody have any ideas?

Bob

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Hi Bob

If you go back a couple of pages there is a link to a website showing the French Yak being stripped off the "museum" paint that has been applied over the years, here is the link.

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1197.0

Cheers

Dennis

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Thanks Dennis

I have just had a look at the pictures in the link - excellent. The blue is a lot darker/deeper than I imagined and if the wing roots show AMT-12, then it really is dark!.I assume the cockpit colours are original A14 steel? I really find this whole "mystery" regarding Russian colours to be fascinating. I think I may have to send off for somw AKAN paints after all. I am also going to have to repaint the cockpit of my Lagg-3. I have silver, green and light blue in there and I now think that A14 overall would be correct.

Bob

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Looking at the AKAN colors, they seem quite dark, yet some of the museum and flyable Soviet aircraft currently on the circuit I have seen greens that are reminiscent of basic interior green, and the blue undersides a turquoise/aqua color, then on some aircraft, medium light blue. As to greys, the Yak that we have at the Planes of Fame museum (Nieman Squadron) seems to be in RAF grey colors. Were the Soviets adopting RAF or French colors prior to the war? Most modelers tend to just use American FS, British or French colors and feel they are accurate enough, but are they?

Cheers

Edited by Spitfires Forever
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Looking at the AKAN colors, they seem quite dark, yet some of the museum and flyable Soviet aircraft currently on the circuit I have seen greens that are reminiscent of basic interior green, and the blue undersides a turquoise/aqua color, then on some aircraft, medium light blue. As to greys, the Yak that we have at the Planes of Fame museum (Nieman Squadron) seems to be in RAF grey colors. Were the Soviets adopting RAF or French colors prior to the war? Most modelers tend to just use American FS, British or French colors and feel they are accurate enough, but are they?

Cheers

HI Randy

Some of the restorations , especially in the west, have drawn upon the work of Pilawskii,

back on post #4 of this thread, I supplied a link.

As Graham cautions, there has been quite some confusion caused by the

work of Erik Pilawskii, he of the very bright blue and lurid green fame

If this means nothing to you, then a read through this thread would explain the controversy

http://sovietwarplan...hp?topic=1071.0

It's quite a long thread but it does deal with the confusion caused, so is worth taking time to read.

there are resotorations that have been advised by Pilawskii...like the IL-2 and Pe-2 in Norway...

Note my reference to bright blues and greens, and you comment above.

I

really would not take warbird restorations as being an accurate

reference. Also, Pilawskii's book came out in 2003, serious criticism, from Russians,

took a few years to reach the west, and by then he was 'the expert' and asked about restorations...

Is the POF Yak one of the new build ones? Again, when was it painted, and on what references?

As for the AKAN paints, I'd suggest they are good matches for the full size paints, and as a result on models look too dark.

Were the Soviets adopting RAF or French colors prior to the war?

No, they were not using RAF or French colours. But camouflage is camouflage, by it's very nature different countries variants are going to have a lot in common.

Pretty much everything you need to know about VVS camouflage is available on sovietwarplanes site here

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html

It is a work in progress, but the schemes described are taken from photos which are reproduced.

Massimo Tessitori also put up his profiles on the forum for comment.

The vast majority of VVS aircraft were supplied factory applied camo schemes as specified during WW2. [see above link]

It is really unfortunate that Pilawskii has caused so much confusion and misinformation to occur.

HTH

T

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Oh dear. Once again everything that has ever been said/wrong (the two are usually taken as synonymus) in the past about Soviet colours has been blamed on a single contributor. A very vocal and prolific one but far from the only one and, in terms of my modelling life anyway, pretty recent. (OK, maybe not exactly yesterday.) And in contrast we are pointed at one source which contains the True Gospel.

I believe that EP did a lot to raise the visibility of the subject, and don't accept that everything he ever said has to be totally discarded - along presumably with everything else ever said on the subject before that. Be that as it may, having cast out one idol we shouldn't now be raising another. I feel a little more caution is called for when addressing the subject, and a lot less simple-minded black v white thinking. Wild swings from one extreme to another worry me rather than convincing me - I feel the truth will lie more in the progress from thesis vs antithesis to synthesis.

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Hi Graham

To be honest until I saw and bought EP's book my interest in and knowledge of Soviet aircraft in WW2 was very close to zero, an Airfix 1/72 scale Yak 9D built when I was a youngster was about it, EP's book fired up my interest so it was very disappointing to hear people saying that his work was not accurate.

I would still like to see an English language book on the subject that all these experts agree is accurate rather than relying on information scattered across the internet, and it would be nice to see copies of official paint charts appear so that we could verify the accuracy of model paints for ourselves.

Cheers

Dennis

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Let me add my tuppence. Although I disagree (now) with much of Mr. Pilawskii's conclusions, as with Dennis, reading his work (re)kindled my interest in Soviet aircraft. If for nothing else, I thank him for that. And I agree with Graham in that not everything Mr. Pilawskii did was rubbish, and sometimes the discussion about Soviet colours descends into ad hominem attacks against him, which serves little or no purpose. Let's stick to evidence, if at all possible, and leave personalities out of it. However, I still think Troy did a good summation of how the situation currently is regarding VVS colours. Dennis, I also agree strongly that there needs to be a new work on VVS colours, and it's something I've contemplated doing. It would be an even longer and more drawn-out process than what I've done to date with my Il-2 book, however, so I wouldn't count on seeing it anytime soon (or even ever - someone may beat me to it, and good for them!). I do wish someone would at least come out with an English-language book explaining the Albom Nakrasok, since so much stock has been placed into it by Russian historians and modellers. Even through the imperfect medium of modern colour reproduction, it would be nice to see in a modern book the colours that people such as Erik Pilawskii, Mikhail Orlov (Russian historian), and Aleksandr Akanikhin (Mr. AKAN) are working from.

Regards,

Jason

Edited by Learstang
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It would be nice if someone, maybe someone Russian even, could come up with a summary of what we know, what it is thought likely by the majority and what has been discredited as a myth.

I see a lot of mud-slinging but very few people baking bricks and building something with them and the only decent and honest website is Massimo Tessitori's so far...

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Oh dear. Once again everything that has ever been said/wrong (the two are usually taken as synonymus) in the past about Soviet colours has been blamed on a single contributor. A very vocal and prolific one but far from the only one and, in terms of my modelling life anyway, pretty recent. (OK, maybe not exactly yesterday.) And in contrast we are pointed at one source which contains the True Gospel.

I believe that EP did a lot to raise the visibility of the subject, and don't accept that everything he ever said has to be totally discarded - along presumably with everything else ever said on the subject before that. Be that as it may, having cast out one idol we shouldn't now be raising another. I feel a little more caution is called for when addressing the subject, and a lot less simple-minded black v white thinking. Wild swings from one extreme to another worry me rather than convincing me - I feel the truth will lie more in the progress from thesis vs antithesis to synthesis.

Graham

I was trying to give a simple answer to Randy's query.

I don't think sovietwarplanes is 'The One True Gospel' I said that it has pretty much everything you need to know about need to know about VVS camo, [i had originally put 'sanely' should have kept it in]

If there is a better site, or should I say, english language site on the subject, I'd like to see it.

Sovietwarplanes is a work in progress, with many contributors, and a reasoned, progessive open minded approach, open to disscussion and revision in the light of new material. The only black and white thing about it is most of the photos!

I am not trying to raise an idol, or cast out previous work that is still correct, but so much of the incorrect information is still common currency [eg current Airfix boxing of Yak 9, in Brown/green upper camo , Pe-2, in overall green upper camo for a supposed WW2 era plane for example] but give pointers as to what is the best option available as far as I know.

Please, add links to a better option if you know of one.

By contrast, Pilawskii is dogmatic, and takes any critique as a personal attack by fools.

He certainly raised to profile of the subject, but also added layers of confusion and misinformation, along with dismissing verified information at the same time.

The truth is this, his 'bible' is basically useless UNLESS you already know a fair amount on the subject, and what's right, what wrong and what's missed out in it. [this is detailed in the thread link above for those curious]

Now, if he had the grace to accept reasoned critques and make appropriate revisions he would still be considered the leading English language expert on the subject.

He didn't, he spat his dummy out. This link is in the thread link above, but in case anyone misses it, this is classic EP

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948_Albom_Nakrasok.html

Unfortunately, as he was 'the expert' he has been consulted by restorers and used as guide for model paint [eg WEM range] so continuing these problems.

The one thing I find perplexing is the idea that VVS camo and colours are 'difficult' or a 'minefield' which is why I mentioned that

'The vast majority of VVS aircraft were supplied factory applied camo schemes as specified during WW2.'

as examining photos shows that there were directives, and they were mostly followed, and we have a pretty good idea of what the colours looked like.

There are of course exceptions and oddities which are fascinating, and are far more fun than the mundane, in the same way Malta Spitfire colours are compared to the dull uniformity of the day fighter scheme as a parallel example.

Does this clarify my post above?

T

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Oh dear....

Now I understand Mr. Millman's feelings perfectly. You can repeat yourself only so many times....

@Mr. Super Aereo

As previously said: sovietwarplanes.com is currently "the VVS color site" in English, and even that took too much time and nerves, to get it away from MR. Pilawski's "research".

That site is a fine summary, and has been for last two years.

Why accepting that remains a problem for many is out of my comprehension.

Troy, Learstang, nice posts.

Vedran

Edited by dragonlanceHR
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I don't think sovietwarplanes is 'The One True Gospel' I

said that it has pretty much everything you need to know about need to

know about VVS camo, [i had originally put 'sanely' should have kept it

in]

If there is a better site, or should I say, english language site on the subject, I'd like to see it.

I am not trying to raise an idol, or cast out previous work that is

still correct, but so much of the incorrect information is still common

currency [eg current Airfix boxing of Yak 9, in Brown/green upper camo ,

Pe-2, in overall green upper camo for a supposed WW2 era plane for

example] but give pointers as to what is the best option available as

far as I know.

I totally agree that sovietwarplanes.com is currently the go-to place for VVS information, and I think the more time one spends there, the less one views the subject as a minefield.

I know you weren't saying this, but it's really not fair to blame Airfix's brown/green call on EP -- seems to me that piece of misinformation goes way back into the past. Frankly, I'd be delighted if a thread such as this could go on for more than a few pages without EP's name being brought up at all.

Best,

Pip

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Oh dear....

Now I understand Mr. Millman's feelings perfectly. You can repeat yourself only so many times....

@Mr. Super Aereo

As previously said: sovietwarplanes.com is currently "the VVS color site" in English, and even that took too much time and nerves, to get it away from MR. Pilawski's "research".

That site is a fine summary, and has been for last two years.

Why accepting that remains a problem for many is out of my comprehension.

.

I have long admired and respected the work of Massimo Tessitori and of the collaborators of Sovietwarplanes, what is beyond me is that there seem to be nobody else doing anything constructive on the subject.

Let me explain: for years (and not just two years), Massimo's has been the only website, at least outside the Slavic world, providing decent and honest research on the subject of GPW VVS colours.

Apart from him, and a few posters on his site, many others have done absolutely nothing apart from screaming blue murder about EP, but more often than not without contributing anything of substance.

I think we are all agreed that EP's book is unreliable, I just wish somebody would come up with some solid research instead of repeating ad nauseam that EP was/is wrong.

When Learstang says that there is no reliable publication in English on the subject, he is absolutely correct and I find t surprising that such a gap has not yet been filled.

That's all I was saying.

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When Learstang says that there is no reliable publication in English on the subject, he is absolutely correct and I find t surprising that such a gap has not yet been filled.

The closest to date is "Colors of the Falcons", by Jiri Hornat and Bob Migliardi, based on previous work by Vakhlamov and Orlov published in M-Hobby magazine. However, it's not the exhaustive and detailed book that this subject deserves.

John

Edited by John Thompson
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@SuperAereo

Results of solid VVS research are posted on sovietwarplanes.com and are revised/updated almost as soon as something comes up on Russian forums.

It is as solid as anything posted on modelling forums on RAF, LW, RA, IJA/IJN, USN and USAAF colors. Information, common knowledge and ancient myths regarding these colors are also being (re)discovered and revised from time to time.

Now, I would like a decent publication in English (tho it is still a foreign language to me, it's easier to read than Russian), but Massimo has a nice summary that is sufficient to most modelers, IMO.

Vedran

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@dragonlanceHR:

I am glad to see that we agree on sovietwarplanes.com: it was a pleasure to see that site grow from its beginning as a few pages dedicated to the Mig-3.

I cannot read Russian (I can just about decypher the Cyrillic alphabet and use some simple phrases), so that site is the only reliable source of information I can access.

@John Thompson:

"Colors of the Falcons" is a nice little booklet, but I understand that besides being based on material researched by Vakhlamov and Orlov, it also incorporates some ideas now generally discredited such as the "southern schemes".

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Hi all,

I've seen this topic with delay.

I suggest to stop to loose time by criticizing past works of some authors. Despite their errors and their reluctance to discussion, they can't be considered as responsible for all the wrong beliefs of the past.

I've found many interesting things, I am pleased in particular with the color comparison of real chips made by Spitfire and other members.

In the past, I was deluded by merely digital chips because they were altered both by the scanning, both by the visualizing on a screen, also because it's impossible to compare a digital chip to a material one under the same light.

The work of photographing real chips side by side on the same photo is good, because one has the possibility to make comparison with real paints that he can have at home. I did it on a limited range of paints only, but here I see a more comprehensive work. Maybe we could complete it and use it for widening this part on Sovietwarplanes?

Even if the real colors of real planes are not perfectly known, it could be useful anyway.

I see also some considerations on the ageing of paints that look well informed on a chemical point of view. Maybe we could try to extrapolate an esteem of the fresh paints on Nakrasok alboom from their good reproductions made by Akan?

Regards

Massimo

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if you are interested in getting "Colors of the Falcons" I would suggest you do what I did.

contact the publisher/printer directly to see about ordering.

I was able to send a USPS International Money Order to receive it.

if you do not live in the USA or Canada I am sure some other arrangement can be made.

Colors Of the Falcons

by Jiri Hornat & Bob Migliardi

© 2006

ISBN 0-9739994-0-3

Iliad Design

334 Sunnyside Ave. Ottawa,ON K1S 0S1 Canada

www.iliad-design.com

it can also be available from www.squadron.com

(on page 1 it is listed as "Colours of the Falcons"...odd that both spellings are used)

Edited by PFlint
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Hi,

I wonder why Migliardi has never published an update of this book. He would be in the best position to make a corrected and updated book on Soviet colors in few weeks. Yes, it would be hardly more than a translation of Orlov and Vaklamov, once you delete the part inspired by EP, but he could extend the part of profiles, patterns, photos and relative comments. What is emerged in the last years allows to add some improvements.

Regards

Massimo

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The title of the book is "Colors of the Falcons"

The book is very easy to obtain. No mucking about needed.

Just visit the website ( http://www.iliad-design.com ) and you'll find it (along with our other stuff).

You can order online with either surface shipping, or with extra for air anywhere.

You can pay by credit card or Paypal.

There are no plans for a revised version at this time.


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Model Master do a version of AMT-1? I use Model Master Enamel Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 for AMT-1, which I think may be too light, but about the correct hue (colour).

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

The MM color I'm talking about is 2125 Russian Earth Gray. It may be that they intended it as a modern Soviet color, but I lightened it a bit with white and thought it looked the part for a tan version of AMT-1

Left.jpg

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Very nice Ilyusha, Pip! Is that the Accurate Miniatures kit? That colour looks quite good as AMT-1 Light Brown. I might actually have it buried somewhere amongst my 150 or so bottles of paint. Do you remember how much white you used to lighten the tone?

Regards,

Jason

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Very nice Ilyusha, Pip! Is that the Accurate Miniatures kit? That colour looks quite good as AMT-1 Light Brown. I might actually have it buried somewhere amongst my 150 or so bottles of paint. Do you remember how much white you used to lighten the tone?

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

Thanks, and yes, it is the AM kit. I honestly don't remember how much white I used. As I recall, I tried to get it close to 26306, the reference quoted in Massimo's general color chart, plus I eyeballed it against the profiles in the Il-2 section.

Pip

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