Hurricane P3975 RF-U spinner colour

[johnd]

Evening all!

I thought I'd build a 303 squadron Hurricane using some old decals supplied with the aged Revell Mk1 kit. These are for P3975, RF-U, in which Frantisek had a bit of success. Now, the box art shows a red spinner (and I've seen this on other people's models and illustrations too) but the instructions suggest white. Does anyone out there know whether either of these are correct and what evidence there is? Internet searches weren't at all fruitful and my small reference collection sheds no light.

Thanks,

John.

Edited January 29, 2013 by johnd

[Paramedic]

Not the best of help but..

..this is one pic from the search "Frantisek´s hurricane": (It is Jan Zumbach in the pic by the way!)

(http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/LOSC.html

And a mixture of pics and some photos shows black or white/light coloured spinners on 303 Hurricanes.. So maybe black is also an "option"..?

Not too much help but I will see if any of my books shows anything when I get home.. (Am about to build a 303 too..)

Edit:

Also: http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/10/the-one-man-czech-air-force/

Edited January 30, 2013 by Paramedic

[Work In Progress]

I am hard pressed to believe in it being white. It started black, and I can buy it having been red at some point.

How long did the airframe survive? There are pictures of a successor RF-U with the Sky fuselage band and spinner, but that's a different airframe, something ending in 02. The Sky band has evidently been painted over the top of most of the serial on xxx02, which suggests that the change to Sky spinners and fuselage bands came after P3975 was replaced by xxx02.

[VoyTech]

I'd be surprised if the spinner on P3975 was not black. I don't think this Hurricane was special within No. 303 Sqn in any way, so there was no reason why it should be painted any non-regulation colour.

The subsequent RF-U ("xxx02") was in fact V7503.

[Work In Progress]

Ah, right. Upon looking again I see I misread 03 on the photo as 02. Thanks for the correction.

[johnd]

It struck me that the normal colour of Hurricane spinners at this time was black, as VoyTech and Work in Progress say. So there must have been something that made Revell think this particular aircraft had a red one, a photo or an eyewitness account. I'll go for black then, as I want to do an earlier example with the black/white underside rather than the later sky spinner/tailband/underneath version.

Thanks Paramedic, those links are a good read.

Interesting comment about how long the airframe lasted. If it was a Spitfire, we'd just look at "Spitfire, The History" and refer to the serial number. I don't suppose there's anything like that for Hurricanes about?

John.

[Technik1.wills]

As far as I am aware, the only Hurricanes that had red spinners were the mk. 2D's (IID) flown in the North-African theatre, circa 1941-3. They were mostly in "Middle Stone/Sand" camouflage.

[Hornet133]

As far as I am aware, the only Hurricanes that had red spinners were the mk. 2D's (IID) flown in the North-African theatre, circa 1941-3. They were mostly in "Middle Stone/Sand" camouflage.

I think you have forgotten about the many 100s of Mk.I , IIb and IIC Hurricanes which carried Red spinners in the North-African Theatre.

[Work In Progress]

Yes, but those Tropical scheme aircraft carried red spinners as official policy, did they not? I had the impression that what we were talking about on P3975 was an unofficial act. There are a number of examples of unofficial spinner colours documented on UK-based Spitfires and Hurricanes, e.g. Hurricane P2798.

However, in the absence of credible witness testimony or a convincing photo I would default to the standard black (technically Night).

[VoyTech]

It struck me that the normal colour of Hurricane spinners at this time was black, as VoyTech and Work in Progress say. So there must have been something that made Revell think this particular aircraft had a red one, a photo or an eyewitness account.

John.

I think it started with colour profiles published years ago, which may have been based on poor copies of the photo in post #2. The piece of spinner you can see here looks paler than black, but if you get a good quality copy of it you'll see it's just glare in all probability. Also, this Hurricane has been shown in profiles with the Czech AF marking under the cockpit, and this was clearly due to misinterpretation of the 303 Sqn badge in a poor qulity copy of the photo.

[gingerbob]

And if anyone subsequently proves that it got a red or white or taupe spinner, you can say that your model represents the aircraft before this personal affectation was done.

bob

[Test Graham]

That's not the spinner, just the forward part of the cowling, and certainly glare.

As for no other Hurricanes, isn't there considerable argument about Gleed's, which may have been red or perhaps blue, but certainly not black. Without searching for the exact reference, isn't there evidence of at least one Spitfire with a coloured spinner in the BoB? Such things did exist, if in small numbers.

[Super Aereo]

That would be P9386 QV-K of 19 Sqn, as discused here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13457-spitfire-mk1-p9386-qv-k/

[johnd]

Oddly enough, I'm building QV-K too. I decided on a white spinner.

Also, this Hurricane has been shown in profiles with the Czech AF marking under the cockpit, and this was clearly due to misinterpretation of the 303 Sqn badge in a poor qulity copy of the photo.

So no red spinner and I can't use the Czech insignia either? Bother.

[fightersweep]

Hi All;

Although not related to Frantisek's Hurricane, I have been puzzling over a similar question regarding Hurricanes of 56 Squadron during the Battle of Britain. This video on Youtube illustrates the point if you look from 4:06 onwards..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0-fVLCnsBs.

This film was taken at Rochford during the battle, and most of the spinners appear to be either white or maybe sky. Again, this doesn't appear to be common during this time, and most profiles etc seem to think that the colour was white. For what reason the whole squadron adopted this spinner colour is unclear to me, but it would be interesting to know a bit more about this. As regards to Frantisek's Hurricane, all of the profiles I have show the spinner as being red, but I too have my doubts about this.

As far as the Youtube film is concerned, this footage of the 56 Squadron Hurricanes has always been credited as being filmed at North Weald. This is not so, as the initial sequence shows the Hurricanes landing from the eastward end of Rochford, with the houses along the Southend Road seen clearly in the background. These houses haven't changed at all and can be seen in Google Maps. Also, during the take off sequence, other landmarks such as Warner's Bridge and and the chimney of the Ekco factory can be seen in the background....it's a great bit of footage!

Regards;

Steve

[Work In Progress]

Good spot. I have not seen that before.

[fightersweep]

Thanks;

It's a great bit of film, and I still have trouble convincing some that it is Rochford. (I'm an ex-pat Southend boy, so Rochford holds great interest for me)

The other thing that I have wondered about this footage is during the take off sequence. A Hurricane carrying the US-X codes can be seen in the foreground. I've often wondered if this is Geoffrey Page, but I am uncertain as to exactly when it was filmed as it may well have been after he was shot down on the 12th of August.

Regards;

Steve

[johnd]

I think it started with colour profiles published years ago, which may have been based on poor copies of the photo in post #2. The piece of spinner you can see here looks paler than black, but if you get a good quality copy of it you'll see it's just glare in all probability. Also, this Hurricane has been shown in profiles with the Czech AF marking under the cockpit, and this was clearly due to misinterpretation of the 303 Sqn badge in a poor qulity copy of the photo.

It makes sense that an individual aircraft in a Polish squadron wouldn't have a Czech insignia when pilots swapped aircraft, but why would the squadron badge appear under the cockpit on this airframe and under the aerial on all the others? I have to say on copies of the photo pictured above (featuring Zumbach) it does look like a Czech roundel thingy.

[Technik1.wills]

My sincere apologies for my faux-pas earlier!

[VoyTech]

It makes sense that an individual aircraft in a Polish squadron wouldn't have a Czech insignia when pilots swapped aircraft, but why would the squadron badge appear under the cockpit on this airframe and under the aerial on all the others? I have to say on copies of the photo pictured above (featuring Zumbach) it does look like a Czech roundel thingy.

Not sure, really. But there are a number of photos of 303 Sqn Hurricanes with the badge in this position. Perhaps they started with the badge under the cockpit, but then found it was prone to wear off during operations, so repositioned it to the top of the fuselage. Notably, it was the other way round with Spitfires: initially the badge was applied under the aerial mast, but was soon repositioned to a place under the windscreen. And then on Mustangs it came back to a position directly under the cockpit hood.

[Troy Smith]

Several Hurricane squadrons units have been documents as having non-black spiners in the early stages of the BoB, then there was an order to paint them all black.

From memory they are

the 56 Sq mentioned by Steve above,

17 Sq, probably in sky, alomg with wavy leading edges, implying in field sky repaint

85 Sq [quite possibly in flight colours, seen in may 1940 in France, and Castle Camps in july 1940] see here for more info/picshttp://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

and Gleeds LK-A of 87 squadron as well.

HTH

T