English Electric Lightning - did it splash a C130?

[Red Dragon]

I was told quite a number of years ago, by one who was allegedly there, that the C-130 was brought down by the RAF at the request of the USA as it would have been "bad politics" if the truth (?) came out if one American aircraft had shot down another American aircraft. He mentioned nothing about an American pilot. He had a number of other stories regarding strange goings on!

Phil

Carried over from the other thread I stared today from this book Chapter 7 relates a tale from Rick Groombridge who was on QRA at Wattisham with 29 Sqn one night when called by the duty controller. He relates that he was told to hand over his aircraft with no questions asked to an American Exchange Officer who would be about to pitch up at QRA and then to stand down. He asked if that "was it" and was told simply "Yes" and was hung up on.

The US guy dutifully turned up and one Lightning was handed over. Rick duly retired to the officers mess to hear a Lightning take off shortly thereafter.

An hour or so later a Lightning returned and he was called and told to resume QRA duties. He says there was no routine flying going on so he concludes he had to have heard a QRA aircraft take off and return.

A short while later he heard that a C130 from Mildenhall had been taken by a USAF sergeant on pretext of a taxi test, took off and headed for the USA. It had gone into the sea.

Everyone was tight lipped about the Lightning but he says rumours abounded. One was that the Lightning that came back only had one of her two missiles and on landing she had taxied to the airfield missile site before returning to the QRA hangar with the normal quota

After reading the above a Googled a search and there is some stuff on the sites such as prune but its all rather iffy

One thing is certain is that the C130 was taken and it did go into the sea.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Red Dragon

[Max Headroom]

The Concorde intercept is true as it was used to simulate Soviet bombers coming in over the Pole. From- to Prestwick some lucky Reggie Spotters went along for the ride.

The first Harrier GR.5 famously lost its pilot on test and was escorted by a C-141 until it ran out of fuel and crashed into the sea.

In fiction the BBC had a series early 1982 about a joint Harrier and Hercules squadron (!) that had to shoot down a 125 whose crew died of hypoxia. Anyone remember it?

Trevor

[JohnT]

i have also heard stories that ba would send concord high and fast for the lightnings to catch,also that the f3 xr749 was very good at catching it

similar stories with u2's anyone else have any info on this.

regards Glenn.....

Glenn

the Lightning did indeed intercept U2's several times. Its well covered in another book "Lightning from the Cockpit" by Peter Caygill (Chapter 7 Lightning Versus the U2)

It happened when the U2 was deployed to Upper Heyford in Oct 1962 for high altitude sampling tests from Soviet nuclear tests. The RAF asked for and got permission to practise very high altitude intercepts on the U2 as they went about their business to discover the best methods of using the Lightnings high altitude abilities.

From Trials with the F1/F1A it was clear that the max effective intercept height in the UK was 65,000 feet but with the extra power of the F3/F6 intercepts at over 70,000 were possible. However on 7 August 1979 Wg Cdr Brian Carroll in Saudi in a F53 reckons he got up to 87,300 feet.

Previously on 23 October 1968 Flt Lt Dave Broome of 74 Sqn in Singapore was allowed the chance to intercept a high flying RB 57F and managed 80,000 while flying a 180 degree turn. After that experience he fancied trying going higher and as a passing Victor tanker was able to give him a fuel top up a few weeks later he went up to 87,800 feet which he reckons is the unofficial high altitude record for a Lightning. Not without risk as had the cockpit pressurisation failed his pressure jerkin, g suit and normal oxygen mask would not have ensured his survival.

Both books are a great read

Edited January 29, 2013 by JohnT

[Duncan B]

Re the Indonesian C-130.In the book.'Empire in the Clouds' (I think!)it reports that the Herc crashed whilst trying to get away from the Javelin.

That's the one I was thinking of. IIRC they also intercepted F51's with some difficulty.

Duncan B

Edited January 29, 2013 by Duncan B

[The wooksta V2.0]

Hence the use of the BBMF Spitfire PR19 for dis-similar combat training.

[Alex Gordon]

I know Rick well enough to ask the question,he has always been absolutely straight with me.

For the record,he is not a well man.The immortal steely eyed killer,regrettably,ain't quite as immortal as we would like to think.

[XV107]

Mildly OT, but Dave Roome [sic], as I recall, gets several mentions for some er... 'interesting' bits of flying in Bob Cossey's history of 74. He also commanded the Phantom OCU when one of his pilots decided that overflying a passing out parade at Cranwell at rather low level (72ft above ground level on the third pass, with onset of wing rock, IOT graduates losing hats and falling over, etc, etc) was a good idea. The AOC disagreed, and there was a brief moment where it looked as though Dave Roome would lose his command - he stayed, the offending pilot ended up, IIRC, finding his Phantom tour ending and a new, exciting opportunity flying Jet Provosts emerging, and the video of the incident is still a mainstay of flight safety training (in the 'this probably shouldn't have seemed like a good idea when he had the idea' category). There is, therefore, a certain neat symmetry to Dave Roome ending up as Command Flight Safety Officer at Strike...

Trevor - you mean 'Squadron' . Malcolm Stoddard, Michael Culver et al. The squadron also had Phantoms at the start, but lost these as a result of defence cuts (in reality, the RAF couldn't spare them for filming, since there was a need to be able to deploy to Ascension Island (filming took place in 1982...) For the splendidly electronic theme tune:

[JohnT]

I know Rick well enough to ask the question,he has always been absolutely straight with me.

For the record,he is not a well man.The immortal steely eyed killer,regrettably,ain't quite as immortal as we would like to think.

I think we all would want to pass on our best wishes to him even though we have not had the pleasure of meeting him. He might be chuffed to know he was the topic of conversation on this forum to boot

[RNoAF Aerobatic Team]

wasn't there also a German(?)F-104 with the pilot dead at the controls or did it just run out of fuel and crash?

All interesting stuff.

RG

I have heard this story aswell.

The pilot blacked out and never came back. Norwegian AF followed the jet until it crashed in the sea. Out of fuel...

[thx6667]

The loss of Harrier ZD325 at sea has always fascinated me because in the autumn of 1987 I was working the garden, heard an aircraft overhead and was surprised to see a Harrier II, the first time I'd seen this version in real life, instantly recognisable by the repositioned outrigger wheels. A day or so later on the news there's the report of ZD235 going down in the Irish Sea from Boscombe. I draw a mental line in my head and realise that it must have been ZD235 - spooky.

Except it wasn't or rather could not have been. The reports of her course and height would have made it impossible to see from my position relative to the Bristol Channel. Clearly not ZD235. But further digging over the years has never revealed what Harrier that was, whether it was an AV-8B or the other DB Harrier, and if so no mention has ever been given of them being in or around the same airspace at around the same time on the very same day as contact was lost with ZD325.

I know what I saw - a Harrier II, most definitely, absolutely, I remember remarking to my parents that I'd just seen one of the new Harriers, the layout of the wing is as clear now as it was then.

Weird!

Edited January 30, 2013 by Jonathan Mock

[thx6667]

There was also the incident of the F-111 coming out of Filton in the same year, September 1987. It was around 7.30 and already getting dark. Heard jet going over (nothing new there, F-111s used to come and go a they were serviced at Filton) then heard a pop and whine before a huge bang - we'd all thought something had crashed, rushed outside to hear a roar and see the afterburners on full burn and an F-111 climbing. Flame out and rapid relight? Never got a reply out of Filton!

[keefr22]

We had aircraft on alert at both Bentwaters and Woodbridge, but the weapons load they had would have been useless in a case like this. Enough said on that.

What, you don't think dropping a bucket of instant sunshine on the Herc would have worked then....??!!

keef

[e8n2]

What, you don't think dropping a bucket of instant sunshine on the Herc would have worked then....??!!

keef

Kind of like overkill more than anything else. This discussion also brings to mind the Flogger that had the pilot eject while still on the eastern side of the Iron Curtain and the aircraft made it to Belgium before it finally hit the ground. Unfortunately it also killed a civilian in the resulting crash. I think it was sometime around 86 or 87. I forget whose Flogger it was.

Later,

Dave

[Paul A H]

IIRC it was a Polish MiG-23. The pilot ejected due to engine failure, but then the engine restarted and it ended up in Belgium, unfortunately killing the chap on the ground.

[ya-gabor]

Sorry, it was a Soviet AF MiG-23M, even the name of the pilot was available. On take off he had some problems (or so he said) and ejected while there was nothing wrong with the aircraft. In flew on until run out of fuel and crashed in Belgium.

It was interesting to see that while in theory air defence systems work perfectly in real life there is a lot of confusion when something like this does happen. There is no difference if it is NATO or WarPac. The same was with that German Mathias going to the Red Square with a Cessna or the absolute impotence of the mighty Russian PVO with a Boeing going over Sahalin. When taking decisions, real decisions no one wanted to take the responsibility.

Going back to the C-130 v. Lightning it would be interesting to know the official version of it and also to see what was going on in the background while it was happening. I am sure there were (if this ever happened) some very nervous commanders in USAF, RAF and other HQ's.

Best regards

Gabor

Edited February 4, 2013 by ya-gabor

[Dave Fleming]

The loss of Harrier ZD325 at sea has always fascinated me because in the autumn of 1987 I was working the garden, heard an aircraft overhead and was surprised to see a Harrier II, the first time I'd seen this version in real life, instantly recognisable by the repositioned outrigger wheels. A day or so later on the news there's the report of ZD235 going down in the Irish Sea from Boscombe. I draw a mental line in my head and realise that it must have been ZD235 - spooky.

Except it wasn't or rather could not have been. The reports of her course and height would have made it impossible to see from my position relative to the Bristol Channel. Clearly not ZD235. But further digging over the years has never revealed what Harrier that was, whether it was an AV-8B or the other DB Harrier, and if so no mention has ever been given of them being in or around the same airspace at around the same time on the very same day as contact was lost with ZD325.

I know what I saw - a Harrier II, most definitely, absolutely, I remember remarking to my parents that I'd just seen one of the new Harriers, the layout of the wing is as clear now as it was then.

Weird!

Must have been one of the others. they were operating out of Boscombe Down at that point IIRC (ZD325 being the 6th one)

[Atom.uk]

I have read this thread with interest. I am in the (long!) process of building 63-7789, along with a 493rd TFW F-100. In the account i read on the net - can't find it now - the fear was that the C-130 was headed for East Germany to defect, and it was bought down by cannon fire from the F-100s. Interesting story, whatever the truth!

interesting dogfights 033 ????? by ATom.UK, on Flickr

[vampiredave]

3. A Hunter from Brawdy/Chivenor/Boscombe was loaded with live 30mm ammo and shot it down

After nearly forty-four years my memory is not as clear about the events surrounding the incident regarding the Hercules. However, I was on Duty Crew at Chivenor at the time and we dragged out a Hunter from one of the hangars (the rest of station was on stand-down for some reason (Bank holiday?)), which was placed on readiness because were told that the Hercules was reported approaching the Bristol Channel. We sat around playing cards and drinking coffee for about a hour until the order came through to put the Hunter back in the hangar and we were stood down! .. and that's as exciting as it got?

[Albeback52]

The Concorde intercept is true as it was used to simulate Soviet bombers coming in over the Pole. From- to Prestwick some lucky Reggie Spotters went along for the ride.

The first Harrier GR.5 famously lost its pilot on test and was escorted by a C-141 until it ran out of fuel and crashed into the sea.

In fiction the BBC had a series early 1982 about a joint Harrier and Hercules squadron (!) that had to shoot down a 125 whose crew died of hypoxia. Anyone remember it?

Trevor

That's right Trevor. It was titled "Squadron". Appeared in 1982 (I think?) and featured the fictional 370 Rapid Deployment Squadron. This squadron operated a mix of Harrier GR3, Puma HC1, C-130 Hercules and, Phantom FGR 2. All in all, I thought it was pretty naff & only 10 episodes were made!! In the episode you recall, the HS 125 was shot down by cannon fire from a Harrier. If I remember correctly, in the first episode, one of their Pumas was shot down by a Jaguar operated by a hostile Middle Eastern country. The Jaguar was then promptly despatched by a Phantom!

Naff series but nice aeroplanes! Now, does anyone remember The Aeronauts? This was a French tv series centring around a pair of Mirage pilots based at ( I think) Orange or Dijon !

Allan

Allan

Edited April 5, 2013 by Albeback52

[Giorgio N]

Naff series but nice aeroplanes! Now, does anyone remember The Aeronauts? This was a French tv series centring around a pair of Mirage pilots based at ( I think) Orange or Dijon !

Allan

Allan

That was a series that met with good success all over europe. It's based on a series of comic strips and a movie was done a few years ago based on the same characters. Original title for both was Le Chevaliers du Ciel, the movie IIRC was named Sky Fighters in english speaking countries and the flight scenes are IMHO some of the best ever filmed for a movie

[Max Headroom]

Allan

Here's the theme tune to Squadron

Don't remember it being that naff......

Now back to the thread

Trevor

[Flankerman]

That's right Trevor. It was titled "Squadron". Appeared in 1982 (I think?) and featured the fictional 370 Rapid Deployment Squadron. This squadron operated a mix of Harrier GR3, Puma HC1, C-130 Hercules and, Phantom FGR 2.

Allan

If its the one I'm thinking of - it was filmed at RAF Hullavington.

I worked there at the time (as a civil servant) - and wandered up to the flight line to watch some of the filming during lunch breaks.

We got shouted at for walking into a shot on one occasion.

Ken

PS - 'Piece of Cake' was also filmed nearby - at Charlton Park, just up the road.

[dambuster]

Getting back on thread - sort of.... My sources show at least 17 USAF and 1USMC pilot to have undertaken Lightning Conversion.

Peter

[Stimpy]

There was also the incident of the F-111 coming out of Filton in the same year, September 1987. It was around 7.30 and already getting dark. Heard jet going over (nothing new there, F-111s used to come and go a they were serviced at Filton) then heard a pop and whine before a huge bang - we'd all thought something had crashed, rushed outside to hear a roar and see the afterburners on full burn and an F-111 climbing. Flame out and rapid relight? Never got a reply out of Filton!

That is correct, real trouser browner that one. Father in law told me about that, he worked for rolls royce back then.

[HP42]

Redirecting an old thread after a search. Oddly enough I heard the C-130 story only yesterday in the 'Lightning boys' audio book. Today there was a story on Radio 4's PM about. 

The thing that gets me is the time to notice the C-130 was missing, then get a decision to shoot it down, arrange the USAF exchange pilot, brief him, get him to a QRA aircraft and dispatch the aircraft in time to make an intercept. Surely the Hercules would be long gone by then?