That's it - I've had enough of Harder and Steenbeck

[Texan76]

Ok, so I used the Vallejo thinner with the 0.4 needle, and it sprayed great. The shop was out of flow improver, so I used my generic flow improver, and it seemed to work. Next time I spray I will try the 0.2 needle with Vallejos own thinner since it seems to work better than the UMP.

[Duncan B]

I've never been able to spray anything other than blocks of colour with Model Air paints. I know others use Vallejo all the time and get great results but I've never been able to do detailed mottling with the stuff. I guess I haven't experimented enough with it as I've always been happy with the results I get from Gunze paints. The whole airbrush and paint manufacturer topic basically comes down to which the individual gets on with and feels more comfortable with, there are generally no right or wrong decisions only personal preferences. Having said that it doesn't hurt to try different brands of paint to find out how you get on with them.

Duncan B

[Texan76]

I've never been able to spray anything other than blocks of colour with Model Air paints. I know others use Vallejo all the time and get great results but I've never been able to do detailed mottling with the stuff. I guess I haven't experimented enough with it as I've always been happy with the results I get from Gunze paints. The whole airbrush and paint manufacturer topic basically comes down to which the individual gets on with and feels more comfortable with, there are generally no right or wrong decisions only personal preferences. Having said that it doesn't hurt to try different brands of paint to find out how you get on with them.

Duncan B

I sure would like to use Gunze, as almost all model kits I build reference their colors. It would save a lot of hassle. Unfortunately, these paints are not available in the USA.

[colin]

Can you get Tamiya paints, they spray equally as good as Gunze, thin with their X-20A

[Texan76]

Can you get Tamiya paints, they spray equally as good as Gunze, thin with their X-20A

Yes, I have some Taimya paints. The only problem with Tamiya is that their color range is very limited.

[Av8fan]

Gunze AQ in USA. Looks like left over stock.

http://store.spruebrothers.com/category_s/1979.htm

Spruebrothers has the solvent based Mr. Color line though. As does robots4less.

http://robot4less.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=mr.%20color

Redfrog:

http://www.redfroghobbies.com/products.php?cat=30&scat=147&prodline=Gunze_Sangyo_Mr_Color

Wear a mask, proper ventilation. No spraying near family/friends/pets.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Av8fan

[Duncan B]

I sure would like to use Gunze, as almost all model kits I build reference their colors. It would save a lot of hassle. Unfortunately, these paints are not available in the USA.

I think you can get the Mr Color range in the US, they are excellent paints and would be my preferred choice but are almost impossible to get in the UK unless privately imported. I have to make do with the remaining stock I have of Mr Color and the Aqueous range of Mr Hobby (which are almost as good but not quite so durable).

Duncan B

[Dazzio]

Hey guys, just weighing in here myself. I bought the H&S Evolution Silverline 2 in 1 about two years ago now from Paul at Littlecars. I pretty much only use Vallejo Model Air and Tamiya (thinned with X-20A) through the 0.2 nozzle and I have never had any issues with the brush. Then again I do clean it out straight away with water/brandcleaner with back washing too. I also take off the nozzle cap too as the paint does seem to like collecting there, admitted I have never tried a mottle yet, but I will be this year sometime. I do however wanna get a new needle but that's my own stupidity.

Kind Regards,

Dazz

[Texan76]

Update: After trying every remedy in the book, I still could not get decent performance from my Evolution Cr Plus. I contacted the Harder and Steenbeck USA office, and I sent them the airbrush to troubleshoot. As soon as I get the diagnosis, I'll post it here.

[Texan76]

Ok, so H&S says that they could not find an issue with the brush, other than worn out seals. How could seals go bad on a brush that is less than a year old? I have only used acrylic through it, and keep it clean. Plus, it hadn't been used much in the one year or less I've had it.

Still, seals should not affect the performance issues I was having. Guess I'll give it one more shot when I get it back. If I can't get it to work, I guess I'll be going to buy an Iwata HP-CS.

[little-cars]

It has to be something very simple....often it's the tiniest of problems that create the biggest headaches.

Which O ring had had gone ?

Could you let me know the current problems you are having and the setup you are using, nozzle size, paint, types, thinner types , cleaner used and cleaning procedure, between colours and at end of session.

[Texan76]

It has to be something very simple....often it's the tiniest of problems that create the biggest headaches.

Which O ring had had gone ?

Could you let me know the current problems you are having and the setup you are using, nozzle size, paint, types, thinner types , cleaner used and cleaning procedure, between colours and at end of session.

I think he said it was the internal seals.

The main issue I'm having is when I try to do fine work, such as fine lines, mottling, etc, where I need minimal paint coming out. Even with heavily thinned paint, I can't get a good "biting" point. I press for air, slowly pull back, but nothing, nothing, then splat! A big huge spray of paint. It's like the nozzle is clogging, but I don't see how it would be. It happens with a perfectly clean brush. It seems to occur with both .2 and .4 needles, but probably worse with .2. I mainly use Vallejo Model Air, but also Tamiya and Model Master Acryl. I use each paints own thinner (I know not to mix Vallejo and Tamiya thinners). I've tried the following:

1: Thinning

2: Adjusting Air Pressure

3: Using flow retarder

Doing general spray work and large coverage it seems to do fine, but fine work is a challenge. As far as cleaning methods, I use Vallejo cleaner, pour in, scrub with a paint brush, dump out, pour in again, dump out, wipe out with paper towel, pour in spray out till clean. Then remove nozzle, remove needle by pushing it forward through brush. Clean needle, brush out needle passage if necessary, clean nozzle if necessary. I did a thorough strip down and cleaning prior to sending it to H&S, and they commented on how the brush was completely clean when he recieved it.

Again, it seems to spray great for general coverage, but for fine close in work where I need minimal paint flow, it doesn't seem to want to come out until I get further back on the trigger, which then I get a heavy flow of paint. This happens with all brands of paint, even when heavily thinned as much as 80/20, and with high and low air pressures from 10-25 psi.

[little-cars]

Hi,

Other than taking the needle out of the front of the brush, that looks OK.

It's normal to take the needle out of the back of the brush.

The 0.4mm needle has a little notch on the back and this can damage the needle seal.

I assume you put the needle in through the back of the brush.

Also cleaning the paint path, you have to be careful also not to damage the needle seal.

I suspect this is the one they were talking about

When going from one paint type to another, do you flush the brush thoroughly with water to clear the remnant of the previous type of thinners?

Looking inside the nozzle, are there any paint deposits visible by the tip?

Also, are there any paint residues on the nozzle cap.

When you say minimal paint flow, what sort of line size are you trying to get ?

One final thing, what pressure (s) are you spraying at ?

Ta,

Paul

Edited August 8, 2016 by little-cars

[Texan76]

Yes, when cleaning I usually remove through the front of brush to keep paint on the needle from getting into the back of the airbrush. When putting back in, I go from the back.

Yes, the nozzle is completely free of residue and is not damaged.

I am trying to achieve mottling camo or very light panel shading which must be built up very slow. This requires minimal paint to spray out so it can be slowly built up. I have tried as low as 10 psi, which is recommended, to as high as 25 psi.

Thanks for all your insight on this issue.

[little-cars]

How much more are you thinning the paint when you paint at low pressure ?

Paul

[Texan76]

How much more are you thinning the paint when you paint at low pressure ?

Paul

80-90% thinner to 10-20% paint

[little-cars]

That should work OK,

From the symptoms you describe it sounds like a gel of paint in the system.

Blocking the nozzle initially, until it opens up, then the paint blasts out.

Have you tried back flushing the nozzle with a solvent aerosol cleaner like badger sprayaway?

Checking the nozzle, are you checking the inside through a magnifier? I have known of occasional problems when there is a small buildup of paint towards the tip.

Also, have you checked that the nozzle cap is the 0.2 one, not the 0.4 one.

Paul

[Texan76]

I should be getting the brush back by tomorrow. I will do a test and see how it performs. I'll start with a 50/50 mix at 20 psi to check general spray then thin down to 80/20 and go to 10 psi to check for the fine work.

[Texan76]

Yes Paul. I checked all these things. H&S says the nozzle and needle is in perfect condition. I hope to get it today. I'll give it a go. At this point, if it doesn't work, then it must be either the paint I use or my individual technique/ skill that is the problem. In that case, if I can't get a good result, I will look at buying a different brush. I have always liked my Iwata Revolution, it works great, though it won't do fine detail. I'm looking at several brushes: Iwata Eclipse HP-CS with .35, Iwata HP-C plus .3, Iwata HP-B with .2, and Grex Xgi with .2. If the .3 will do fine detail like mottling and post shading, I'd like to go with it so it can be a more versatile all around brush, otherwise, if I need a .2, I might get two brushes, one .3. and one .2. Any insight on any of these brushes I mentioned?

[Texan76]

Ok Paul. Got the airbrush back today. H&S included a piece of paper where he tested it. The lines were almost hair thin.

So, I mixed up a thin mix of Model Master Acrylic. I started with about 20 psi, and got real thin lines. I dropped the pressure, and then I did some mottling and very light spray work. It seemed to work great.

Then, I started to have the issue again. I think what is happening is that the longer the paint stays in the cup, it starts to clog the nozzle. I'll be spraying a line with consistent flow and then it will stop spraying. I clean the needle tip, try again, but no paint. I'll have to go max flow off to the side to clear it, then it will work for a little bit, then clog again.

The paint is very thin already, so should I add more flow improver to cure this? I'm glad to know the brush works. Like I said, the brush does perfectly at first when I get started.

[colin]

Try a different brand of paint, Gunze/Tamiya which are proven to spray brilliantly.If not on the model on a paint mule, seems to be paint not airbrush problem

Edit: ooops see you've tried that

[little-cars]

Ok Paul. Got the airbrush back today. H&S included a piece of paper where he tested it. The lines were almost hair thin.

So, I mixed up a thin mix of Model Master Acrylic. I started with about 20 psi, and got real thin lines. I dropped the pressure, and then I did some mottling and very light spray work. It seemed to work great.

Then, I started to have the issue again. I think what is happening is that the longer the paint stays in the cup, it starts to clog the nozzle. I'll be spraying a line with consistent flow and then it will stop spraying. I clean the needle tip, try again, but no paint. I'll have to go max flow off to the side to clear it, then it will work for a little bit, then clog again.

The paint is very thin already, so should I add more flow improver to cure this? I'm glad to know the brush works. Like I said, the brush does perfectly at first when I get started.

So at least we know it's a problem of paint drying to quickly, a quick internet search brings up a number of people with this problem. One suggestion is to use Liquitex Slow-Dri to slow the drying time.

Paul

[BrianI]

Do you need to thin the liquitex slow dri with water first, or do you just add a drop straight from the bottle?

[Texan76]

I have the liquitex slow dri. I tried adding a little more than usual, but it still does not perform well. I think that the water based acrylics I use are just not compatible with the .2 H&S nozzle. The pigments must be too big.

I just bought an Iwata HP-CS with the .35 needle. I got a good deal on it ($125 USD), so I thought it would be worth a try. I sprayed different patterns at different ratios and pressures, and the performance was flawless. I was able the get fine lines and had no clogging issues. Plus, it is a lot easier to clean. Iwatas do not have the deep throat in the bottom of the cup like H&S, so it is easier the wipe out.

I think this new Iwata will be my main airbrush now. It seems to be able to achieve the fine details I would need from it, plus it feels better in my hand. I also like the stiffer trigger on the Iwata, it seems to be easier to control than on the Evolution, which has a very loose trigger.

I am not knocking H&S. I really wanted to love that airbrush. It is very well made. In the end, I just couldn't make it work. This new Iwata seems to do the trick, and if I ever find the need for a smaller needle size, I will look to the Iwata HP-B+.

Below is a pic of the Wildcat I am working on. It is the Airfix model in 1/72, so it is very tiny. I used the new Iwata HP-CS to do all the shading and fine weathering work. I was amazed at the performance and how fine that I could get even with the .35 needle.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Texan76

[little-cars]

Sorry to see you couldn't isolate the problem.

I have hundreds of H&S users using the 0.2mm nozzle successfully with acrylics.

If you were looking at the Eclipse, why didn't you just use the 0.4mm H&S nozzle? It will paint down to about 3mm.

Paul