Preshading for black paint?

[Ossian]

Please excuse me if this is the wrong area and mods move if needed.

I am attempting a Revell 1/48 Mosquito BIV and want to apply as many more advanced (for me anyway) modelling techniques as I can.

I can understand pre-shading panel lines in black/dark brown under a lighter main coat, but what about under the matt black undersides of a night bomber? A fair amount of googling doesn't give too many clues on this.

Should I use a lighter colour (a) in the panel lines or ( in the middle of panels?

Also any thoughts on a final wash to bring out panel lines after the main coat? Again dark on lighter finish makes sense but the black will cause problems...

All input gratefully appreciated

[ben_m]

This can be achieved by preshading black, then doing a very controller overspraying with a very dark blue grey, building up the density very slowly until the preshading is almost gone (but not quite). The lines themselves can be highlighted with any of the normal oil washes or pigments- brown will barely show up, and grey can be used to further exaggerate the lines if desired.

[Duncan B]

Use black! Sounds daft but if you use black for the actual paint finish it will look too stark so use a really dark grey for the area you want to portray as black (Tamiya's NATO Black is a really dark grey and would be perfect or you can try a mix of black and red/brown) and break it up with your preshading in black and some slightly lighter areas post shaded with the dark grey lightened slightly with a drop or two of white. This will give you a subtly varied finish that doesn't look 2 dimensional.

This is exactly what I did with my Bf110 recently.

Hope that helps, Duncan B

[gcn]

Don't use black as your base colour use a very dark grey instead and then your lowlights can be done with the black.

I normally use black with a little bit of buff mixed in for my dark grey, I would also tend to post shade rather than pre shade as the colours are so close I think you would obliterate the pre shade when laying down your base colour.

[Ossian]

Thanks, folks

I have already sourced "NATO Black" for the tyres and will try it for the underside too. I'll do the preshading and then try a post-shade or maybe a black wash

Further googling produced this link, which seems to cover the mechanics of everything

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/01/stuff_eng_tech_panel_lines.htm

[tank152]

You're going.to end up with loads of different suggestions on this, but I'd go along with mixing brown with your black, I use Tamiya red brown, also mixing black with a touch of flesh looks good, you can also throw some Nato black at your model. When you've finished the paint work and applied your Decals you can if you've got any, fade the paint with oils using the dot method, say with colours like buff and such like, just have a play around, if you don't.like the results wipe off and start again. With oils you have plenty of time before they go off.

[Brad]

I find the whole notion of "black looks too stark" ridiculous. We don't say that about white or yellow. I'd paint it standard flat black as a base and then weather it with pigments, filters or spraying patches of lightened base over it. It's not like the blokes painting these things said "you know what Barry, I think black will look to stark on this aircraft, lets paint it really dark grey". Anyway, here are some colour pics of aircraft with black on them, you can make up your own mind.

[woody37]

Another idea I've experimented with recently is paint your colours as normal then using a very diluted light grey, spray the middle of the panels, so post shade rather than preshade This lightens up your base colours to create the sun bleaching effect. Will be trying it out again on my current build as when I've tried preshading, I lose it all under the paint !

[Adam Maas]

Thanks, folks

I have already sourced "NATO Black" for the tyres and will try it for the underside too. I'll do the preshading and then try a post-shade or maybe a black wash

Further googling produced this link, which seems to cover the mechanics of everything

http://www.ipmsstock...panel_lines.htm

Get some of Tamiya's new Rubber Black (XF-85) for the tires, then use the NATO Black for your general blacks. Makes for a nice combo when you have black hubs on the wheels which IIRC is the case for Mosquito's with black undersides.

[Adam Maas]

I find the whole notion of "black looks too stark" ridiculous. We don't say that about white or yellow. I'd paint it standard flat black as a base and then weather it with pigments, filters or spraying patches of lightened base over it. It's not like the blokes painting these things said "you know what Barry, I think black will look to stark on this aircraft, lets paint it really dark grey". Anyway, here are some colour pics of aircraft with black on them, you can make up your own mind.

Well, there's a couple considerations here, and one is simply that a true black on a model will look a lot darker than a true black on a full-size aircraft, and will hide all the detail in a pit of black. This is an issue that Model Railroaders have been fighting for decades and their solution remains use a VERY dark grey instead (often called Steam Power Black or Steam Engine Black). None of the shots you posted look like a true black. Tamiya's NATO Black is dark enough to look black without totally wiping out detail.

[Miggers]

Iv'e used a 50/50 mix of Revell 8 and 9 before now,that seems to give good results.

The question I want to ask you is which panel lines(given that they were skinned with large

panels of ply wood)do you want to over emphasize,er,pre-shade on a Mosquito?

[Wez]

Iv'e used a 50/50 mix of Revell 8 and 9 before now,that seems to give good results.

The question I want to ask you is which panel lines(given that they were skinned with large

panels of ply wood)do you want to over emphasize,er,pre-shade on a Mosquito?

You see, that's the thing, REAL aircraft aren't pre-shaded (except where localised corrosion protection has been applied prior to the top coat being restored), but that's in very small areas not the whole bloody airframe!

The Mosquito, like all other aircraft will accumulate dirt in certain areas (different shades of dirt in different places) and the effects of airflow, maintenance activities, surface smoothness, paint adhesion and consistency, original surface preparation prior to original finish being applied, the effects of weather, fuels, oils and other lubricants will cause the paint to weather differentially across the whole airframe. This doesn't just apply to colour but also to appearance (e.g matt becomes glossy).

So the area around the leading edge will wear and weather differentially to that say at the rear of the cowlings, likewise, the dirt at the rear of the cowling would be a mixture of atmospheric and environmental dirt, exhaust stains, fuel, oil and greases from the engine and undercarriage. If it affects the paint slightly differently here than at the leading edge, not only will it be a subtly different colour it will have a different patina or sheen.

Likewise the areas visited mostly by the groundcrew will receive a buffing from their clothing, this will also affect the shade and the patina of the surface of that area.

And then there's good old fashioned weather, these aircraft spent most of their time outside and that will also have an affect on the surface finish.

Better to take a look at proper operational aircraft and you'll get the gist of what I mean (I know this is a bit difficult for a Mosquito but if you study as many photo's of those with lighter paint finish on the underside and you'll get the idea of where the dirt etc accumulates).

Wez

Edited December 30, 2012 by Wez

[Miggers]

You've got the gist of it there Wez.

What I'm saying is that given that Mossies were very smooth skinned,which panel lines

does our man wish to pre-shade given that there aren't many on a Mossie to pre-shade,

not that I'm a big advocate of the pre-shade technique.

Ossian,look at as many photos of wartime Mossies as you can and do this:

"Paint what you see,not what you think you see"

Reference is vital in this game to get it right.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Miggers

[Duncan B]

I find the whole notion of "black looks too stark" ridiculous. We don't say that about white or yellow. I'd paint it standard flat black as a base and then weather it with pigments, filters or spraying patches of lightened base over it. It's not like the blokes painting these things said "you know what Barry, I think black will look to stark on this aircraft, lets paint it really dark grey". Anyway, here are some colour pics of aircraft with black on them, you can make up your own mind.

That Halifax looks very dark brown, just like a mix of Tamiya Black and Tamiya red brown would look! Also I would never use pure white for a topcoat colour either for the very same reasons, normally I would use a very light grey or spray a very thin coat over grey primer. I don't use a lot of yellow so can't state a preference there.

How about this one, black enough? It's not actually painted black though.

or white enough? This is a very light grey but the contrast with the EDSG (and the lighting) make it look pure white.

Duncan B

Edited December 31, 2012 by Duncan B

[Ossian]

Wow! I didn't expect to start so much controversy when I posted.

Background -- I am a returning modeller learning new skills (and finding I have very little time to apply them, unfortunately). I have wondered about pre-shading as to my mind some of the panel lines on kits look very over-emphasised (Miggers, you appear to agree), but it seems to be the way "everyone does it" so I thought I should try.

Point taken about plywood skins and large panels, but there are some obvious lines on e.g. the cowlings which I presume will need some attention. I am not after a hyper-realistic kit at this stage, just something that stands close to some of the kits I see here.

Brad -- the colour photo of the Mossie is very helpful in that no lines are visible, so gives me some ideas -- maybe just rely on a wash to bring out the engraving on the kit.

Duncan B -- you say your Bf110 is not black -- so what is it if you don't mind my asking?

Wez -- a very useful post with lots of thoughts in it.

[Brad]

Well there won't be many panel lines on a mossie as they are made predominately out of wood.

As for black aircraft, check out this Heinkel 111, it's so black it could be dating one of the Kardashians.

[Nick Millman]

All good stuff but RAF Night was not pure black anyway. It was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine pigments (exactly the same combination used by the IJN for Zero cowlings). Anyone who believes that the addition of ultramarine pigment made no difference to the colour should try it.

The clue is in the name.

[Duncan B]

Duncan B -- you say your Bf110 is not black -- so what is it if you don't mind my asking?

The Bf110 was primed with a grey primer, Mr Surfacer 1000 IIRC, then the panel lines were preshaded with black. After that I sprayed several thin coats of Tamiya NATO Black (which is really a dark grey) until the preshading had almost disappeared. I then mixed some white into the mix and thinned it even more then started randomly spraying (and not just in the middle of panels) to create the worn effect I was after. At this point it did look a bit overdone but once the gloss coat went on the variation in tone almost disappeared again (which was quite distressing).After decaling I sprayed a matt coat on and thankfuly some of the definition returned.

The thing to remember about spraying the lighter tone is to keep the paint very thin, almost dirty thinners really, and be patient in application.

Duncan B

Edited December 31, 2012 by Duncan B

[Adam Maas]

All good stuff but RAF Night was not pure black anyway. It was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine pigments (exactly the same combination used by the IJN for Zero cowlings). Anyone who believes that the addition of ultramarine pigment made no difference to the colour should try it.

The clue is in the name.

Carbon Black is also not a pure black, it's warm and thus a little brownish from personal experience (printing B&W inkjet prints from carbon black inks)

[Fernando]

Hi, all,

Black and Brown mix works for me, adding the latter (or Red, for that matter) until just before I thinks it starts to show. I apply it over a normal Black preshade, then I use some preshading with a more brownish mix or adding some grey.

I think adding grey to a Black turns it too bluish (which of course would be no problem in case of RAF Night, as Nic has pointed out) Red or Brown keeps a nice warm hue to the toned-down Black.

And please do not wash your panels with a light juice! model will look like a 3D blueprint!

Regarding the Mosquito, who says preshading should be restricted to "panel lines"? any part of the skin which may have been subjected to differential stress or weathering is eligible for a good preshading.

Fernando, back at Nairobi

[Nick Millman]

Carbon Black is also not a pure black, it's warm and thus a little brownish from personal experience (printing B&W inkjet prints from carbon black inks)

As Pigment Black 6 it exists in several forms, including red shade (the brownish hue you mention) and blue shade, one warm the other cool. The pigment is described as a black with brown, blue or neutral undertones. When mixed with ultramarine these result in a slightly purplish black or a blueish-grey black and the final colour is dependent on the type of ultramarine used too. I don't know which carbon black and which ultramarine were specified by MAP - or even if they were - but from the name chosen for the paint and its colour analysis a deep blueish black is indicated.

[Jim Kiker]

Hi Ossian,

Welcome back to the modeling scene! I do not have anything much to add to what has already been written here, just a suggestion of two to pass along. As an FYI, I try to reproduce the effects of weathering, fading, stains, and so on as realisticly as possible in my modeling; I like to use the "art" techniques to replicate reality. In my opinion, some modelers perfer to use art for art's sake. That is OK for them, it is their model, but it often does not reflect the reality I have seen in pictures and in person. As a result, I suggest you focus on what you see in pictures, and when you have a question about "how do I do this?" it will be welcomed on the model boards.

The next thing I would say is that we also need to be very careful about reproducing exactly what a given picture seems to show in terms of color. No one can correctly tell you what a given color is based on a black and white photo; one has to understand the time period, finishing practices generally in use, and so on in order to use a B&W photo properly. And the same can be said about color pictures; the filters used on the camera, the type of processing, color leaching, exposure errors, etc. can cause huge swings in how the colors reproduce, so just be aware of those things.

Finally, I would encourage you to build as you wish, not necessarily what "everyone" is doing, for two reasons. First, the model is going to sit on your shelf, not one of ours, and second, "everyone" often bases their modeling on other models instead of available information and "everyone" is therefore often wrong.

OK, Rant Mode- OFF. I am looking forward to seeing how your work progresses!

Cheers, Jim

[Miggers]

Wow! I didn't expect to start so much controversy when I posted.

Background -- I am a returning modeller learning new skills (and finding I have very little time to apply them, unfortunately). I have wondered about pre-shading as to my mind some of the panel lines on kits look very over-emphasised (Miggers, you appear to agree), but it seems to be the way "everyone does it" so I thought I should try.

Hello Ossian.

You're right I do agree,I hate great big over emphasised panel lines all over a model that if the

builder had checked his references properly,he'd see that they weren't there.

Access panels(around a Mossie's engines as you say)are really the only ones that should stand out.

Surface wear and tear is something that happens during an aircraft's operational life.

At the end of the day my friend,it's your model and your interpretation of what you see and like,but,but,

if you want to portray the historical "snapshot in time",study as many reference photos of a particlar

machine(or others of it's type)as you can.

This book(as far as I'm concerned)is the bible when it comes to weathering a model of any type:

http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/1874103119.php

Although it's primarily aimed at railway modellers,the techniques,materials,application and

explanation of the use of reference materials are second to none in obtaining that(for me)

all important,accurate,historical "snapshot in time" look to a model.

[Edgar]

Regarding the Mosquito, who says preshading should be restricted to "panel lines"? any part of the skin which may have been subjected to differential stress or weathering is eligible for a good preshading.

Remembering, of course, that the Mosquito's "skin" consisted of sheets of Madapolam fabric (a top-quality Egyptian cotton,) attached to the wooden ply with red dope, then sprayed silver, then sprayed with the top coats. Any damage that reached as far as tearing the fabric entailed a strip-off to bare wood (not just in the immediate area,) followed by the full doping process all over again.

As far as possible erks were kept off the upper surfaces; each wing has only 9 access "panels" on top, with most access gained from below, through about 23 points.

Edgar

[tank152]

Well there won't be many panel lines on a mossie as they are made predominately out of wood.

As for black aircraft, check out this Heinkel 111, it's so black it could be dating one of the Kardashians.

You can hardly use those as an example they look like colourized photos to me, even so you can detect some brownish hue be behind the exhausts on the He111.

As for pre shading, i'm not a fan of that myself so no longer do it. As it as been pointed out things wear differently in different parts, so a regular pre shade or even a post shade defeats the object. You're better off using all the different colours so far mentioned as not to get a uniform finish. I find oils are the best way to weather aircraft as you can fade your paint work easily with these and keep things nice and subtle.