Test Graham Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) I thought it best to introduce a new thread, but here's the last thread on the subject http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234922498&hl=spaghetti Paul Lucas has uncovered the following statement in the Operational Record Book of the Repair and Maintenance Branch, HQ RAF ME, Cairo. "7.10.40 Appropriate units given procedure for camouflaging frontal portions of Hurricane aircraft (with V.84 followed by a light and irregular application of very pale blue and green)., in order to effect confusion and miscalculation of range by enemy gunners." Punctuation as original. V.84 is Aluminium, in pre-war nomenclature. Further, he mentions that from 20 August 1940 the undersurfaces of all Bomber aircraft (other than Bomber Transport) and Fighter aircraft were to be camouflaged "pale blue". The very pale Sky Blue from the UK was thought inferior to a local mix called Middle East Blue, because the latter was darker. By mid-September 1940 Flying Boats and Army Co-operation aircraft (Lysanders, Hardys, Hartebeests) were also to have Middle East Blue undersides. Perhaps this deserves a separate thread of its own. I'll leave this posting just with the statements, and add comments on implications later. Edited December 18, 2012 by Graham Boak 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 It's possible (and I'm going no stronger than that) that the Middle East blue became Azure blue; in late 1940, the Command sent a sample of their locally-produced blue to the Air Ministry, who sent it to Farnborough for matching, though with the instruction to leave out the silver which the M.E. H.Q. said was part of the formula (anti-U.V., perhaps?) When Farnborough did as they were asked the Ministry thanked them for their "azure blue" (note the lack of capitals, which is why I'm wary of making too much of the possible tie-up - been caught too often, for that.) Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 I agree with you that the connection seems likely. There has been previous talk of an Iraqi Blue, which presumably is the same thing...presumably. Middle East Blue has been mentioned previously from a South African source, so we can perhaps look at the underside of the SAAF Museum Hartbeest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Does Paul plan to publish this anywhere - I miss his articles in SAM and (especially) MAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Very interesting indeed..!!! Where did Mr. Lucas make this information public, by the way? Edited December 17, 2012 by Super Aereo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Graham, based on the pictures in the previous post, the instructions seem confusing, quite confusing. What is V. 84, and light blue and green? What does that mean. The Hurricanes appear to have a light color applied, then darker colors applied in irrelgular pattern. I'd have a difficult time gettting from the instructions you posted to the final paint that appears. Howver, the purpose seems quite logical. Edited December 17, 2012 by Steven Eisenman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Personal correspondence - instead of a Christmas card. I don't know his plans for future articles, if any. Hopefully with this and other recent work there is now enough fresh information to justify an "early Middle East" piece, but presumably this snippet would have been saved for that, had it been imminent. I don't think that this entirely clears up the matter, even allowing for some vagueness in the text. Not every example appears to be shiny enough for Aluminium, and the lighter of the two mottles looks too dark for Sky Blue, to me. (Edit: Steven's comment sneaked in whilst I was writing, but I think this is much the same point he is making.) I suspect variations, or possibly a change with time. It does clarify why there is a contrast between the underside colour and the leading edge. The reference in Shores to an early appearance is dated 25th January 1941, which is consistent with an order of 7th October 1940, but describes different colours - blue, grey and purple - so vague as to leave the door open for a wide range of suppositions. Edited December 17, 2012 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Thank you Graham, if nothing else this is another clue disproving the possible imitation of Italian camouflage styles. Let's hope more documents come to light. Flavio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Wishful thinking I know, but possibly other pages of the ORB will give details of the early light colour (Light Earth?) overpainting, and the eventual (gradual?) replacement of Temperate colours by the Desert scheme. Or even the Martlets....... and the much rumoured Dark/Light Mediterranean Blue schemes...... There's still a lot to be found out about the Middle East schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I "7.10.40 Appropriate units given procedure for camouflaging frontal portions of Hurricane aircraft (with V.84 followed by a light and irregular application of very pale blue and green)., in order to effect confusion and miscalculation of range by enemy gunners." That's excellent Graham. We now seem to have a date for the implementaion of this scheme. Hopefully more information may come to light in due course. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_m Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I'm being lazy, but can anyone suggest a Hurricane Mk.IIc that was photographed and is likely to have been in this silver leading edge scheme? Ideally a FR aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 There are no known photos of any version of Mk.II Hurricanes in the scheme. It had been dropped by the time that Mk.IIs got to the M.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Hi Graham, Edgar. I see you refer to SA gen on Desert undersides. Our Hartbeests did not go up as far as the Desert, only E Africa. I wish we had online access to the RAF HQ files, as our archives only have Adv SAAF HQ files that I am slowly working through. Sometimes get colour files. In our files I do find letters from the Air Ministry stipulating what colours to use, but those are not always implemented in the Units that were operating in SA. That means that the colour on our Hartbees in our museum should not be used to reflect the underside blue found in the Desert Scheme. Will keep my eyes open , now that I have a dte of the RAF HQ order. Stefaan Bouwer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Stefaan, the ME HQ orders did not apply only to the Western Desert, but to all areas under that command, including Iraq, Malta (excuse a certain cynicism here) and the operations in East Africa which did include the SAAF units. I suspect this was not taken as applying to units in SA itself, at least not necessarily, but would be intended to apply to the operational SAAF units further north. Whether it did or not is another matter. If the colour on the museum Hartbees is not a postwar invention, then either it is this Middle East Blue or something close to it, for it appears darker than Sky Blue. In which case we would have yet another colour to track down. Paul's letter does specifically state that the Hartbees (if spelt Hartebeests) were included. He did not supply a copy of the order. As a matter of interest, what is the plural of Hartbees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabat Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 One Hartebees, many Hartebees! And they're dangerous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 FWIW Ron Belling identified two "sky blue" paint colours, which he designated 'A' and 'B', on the under surfaces of wartime SAAF aircraft. They are quite different to the MAP Sky Blue and Med Blues. I have samples of them and will post comparisons and chips at my blog later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 I look forward to that. In the mean time I've added to the title of the thread to reflect the interest - or should the blues discussion move to separate thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 FWIW Ron Belling identified two "sky blue" paint colours, which he designated 'A' and 'B', on the under surfaces of wartime SAAF aircraft. They are quite different to the MAP Sky Blue and Med Blues. I have samples of them and will post comparisons and chips at my blog later. Now that sounds interesting...looking forward to reading your comments. (I just realised something...I said a discussion about 2 different shades of light blue was interesting...I really need to get out more! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 I was waiting for you to appear, Mark, before pointing out that if Middle East Blue was common in 1941, just what was underneath aircraft posted to the Far East from ME stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Hi Guys. Now at my house. I see Ron Belling says underside SAAF blue A1. I have an order from RAF HQ letter ref S-45773 App A States Hartbees as Army C0-Op a/c with topside DG/DE, underside silver. Fighters (Gladiators, Gauntlets) to be top= D/E, Mid Stone, with 'Light (M.E) Blue" underside. Page 2 states that Light (M.E.) Blue will be gradual so that both colour undersides will be operating at the same time. This is the colour we need to find. on 17 Sep 1940 Lewis Berger, the paint co in SA states that their specs for Fabric covered a/c has only top cammo colours, and Aluminium Dope with Ref no LB102. No Mention of any blue on undersides. The Museum's Hartbees is 851. Was last with 40 sqdn before brought back to SA, retired form SAAF April 1941, and given to the Museum in 1943, in it's original colours. Now, sad part!!! It was repainted in it's current inaccurate colours in 1964. Another note on what may have happened to it once it came back to SA. I have numerous letters to SAAF HQ that the camouflaged a/c had either accidents or near accidents because they found that the cammo colours expanded in our heat, causing the flying surfaces to swell up, locking together, and asked to repaint them in silver, as this didn't expand to lock the movable parts. It is therefor very possible that it received an aluminium dope covering before it was retired. I have a friend who is going to look with a colour chart as to which blue is on the underside currently. He is the guy that does most of the restorations at the museum. Hope this helps Stefaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) On 12/19/2012 at 4:44 AM, Stefaan said: Hi Guys. Now at my house. I see Ron Belling says underside SAAF blue A1. I have an order from RAF HQ letter ref S-45773 App A States Hartbees as Army C0-Op a/c with topside DG/DE, underside silver. Fighters (Gladiators, Gauntlets) to be top= D/E, Mid Stone, with 'Light (M.E) Blue" underside. Page 2 states that Light (M.E.) Blue will be gradual so that both colour undersides will be operating at the same time. This is the colour we need to find. on 17 Sep 1940 Lewis Berger, the paint co in SA states that their specs for Fabric covered a/c has only top cammo colours, and Aluminium Dope with Ref no LB102. No Mention of any blue on undersides. The Museum's Hartbees is 851. Was last with 40 sqdn before brought back to SA, retired form SAAF April 1941, and given to the Museum in 1943, in it's original colours. Now, sad part!!! It was repainted in it's current inaccurate colours in 1964. Another note on what may have happened to it once it came back to SA. I have numerous letters to SAAF HQ that the camouflaged a/c had either accidents or near accidents because they found that the cammo colours expanded in our heat, causing the flying surfaces to swell up, locking together, and asked to repaint them in silver, as this didn't expand to lock the movable parts. It is therefor very possible that it received an aluminium dope covering before it was retired. I have a friend who is going to look with a colour chart as to which blue is on the underside currently. He is the guy that does most of the restorations at the museum. Hope this helps Stefaan n/m  Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 The date would itself be interesting, as (presumably) a very early reference to DE/Mid Stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Now that sounds interesting...looking forward to reading your comments. (I just realised something...I said a discussion about 2 different shades of light blue was interesting...I really need to get out more! ) I think, almost by definition, any (all?) of us hanging out here must be at least slightly whacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Hi Guys. Sorry, the date for the document is 25 Aug 1940. My friend checked the underside of the colour of the Hartbees., and I quote: "I have checked uner the Hartebeest, it has definitely been re-sprayed at some time. The current underneath colour matches the Humbrol No.47 ( Gloss Sea Blue). The paint is flaking off next to the radiator and there is a good sample of a slightly darker original colour which matches the Humbrol No.89 ( Matt Middle Blue ). The light in the hall is not to great, especially looking upwards, but I am pretty sure I have matched the colours." Stefaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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