stever219 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hi all, Sorry if this has been asked before and I've missed it butI'm trying to confirm or deny an unworthy thought that I've had concerning the camera windows provided by AIrfix in their splendid Valiant kit. The windows in the kit are curved to follow the contour of the bomb bay door skins, but I think that on the real aeroplane the windows themselves were optically flat panels set back from the outer skin with curved outer doors to keep muck and bugs off the glass. If I've guessed correctly he doors slid upwards between the outer skin and the windows to expose the latter so that the cameras could "see" out. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me please? TIA, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi all, Sorry if this has been asked before and I've missed it butI'm trying to confirm or deny an unworthy thought that I've had concerning the camera windows provided by AIrfix in their splendid Valiant kit. The windows in the kit are curved to follow the contour of the bomb bay door skins, but I think that on the real aeroplane the windows themselves were optically flat panels set back from the outer skin with curved outer doors to keep muck and bugs off the glass. If I've guessed correctly he doors slid upwards between the outer skin and the windows to expose the latter so that the cameras could "see" out. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me please? TIA, Steve Hi Steve This photo will partly confirm your proposition, unfortunatly I can't confirm the window door part, I know the Canberra had such a door system so I can't see it being beyond the collective whit of the engineers at Vicar's to come up with a simular system, It must have been a plumbers nightmare in there with the window de-fog trunking and all the Hydraulics! John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) Hi Steve This photo will partly confirm your proposition, unfortunatly I can't confirm the window door part, I know the Canberra had such a door system so I can't see it being beyond the collective whit of the engineers at Vicar's to come up with a simular system, It must have been a plumbers nightmare in there with the window de-fog trunking and all the Hydraulics! John John, Apart from the windy wipers and (I think) the nose wheel steering, everything else on the Valiant was electrically operated including the bomb doors. As for shutters over the ports. As far as I can remember, there weren't any. Pete Sharp's the man to ask. Dennis Edited December 13, 2012 by sloegin57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) John, Apart from the windy wipers and (I think) the nose wheel steering, everything else on the Valiant was electrically operated including the bomb doors. As for shutters over the ports. As far as I can remember, there weren't any. Pete Sharp's the man to ask. Dennis Phew that's a relief! So a sparky's nightmare then John Edited December 13, 2012 by canberra kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Phew that's a relief! So a sparky's nightmare then John I have just emailed the fount of most of my Valiant knowledge (Pete Sharp) - hopefully he'll come up with an answer. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) I would suggest there were covers. I wouldn't want to carry out a war sortie to find the photographs useless because of all the takeoff crap on the glass. Even the early Meteor PR types had covers which were simply released by the pilot and dumped after takeoff. In fact I think you can just see them in the photo of the Valiant . John Edited December 14, 2012 by John Aero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 .... the collective whit of the engineers at Vicar's .... As in the noted aircraft manufacturer Vicars & Tarts, you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I would suggest there were covers. I wouldn't want to carry out a war sortie to find the photographs useles becuse of all the takeoff crap on the glass. Even the early Meteor PR types had covers which were simply released by the pilot and dumped after takeoff. In fact I think you can just see them in the photo. John Just had this in from Pete Sharp:- "Hi Dennis You are both right. Initially there were NO protective shutters fitted, but it was found that the windows were being covered in hydraulic oil and spray thrown up from the nose wheel, especially when operating in inclement weather conditions, consequently it was decided to fit protective shutters. I have not been able to identify the Mod No or the effective date for this particular Mod. Now this shortcoming has come to my attention it will be attended to in due course. PR. Mod. list: 25 Installation of hard points and wiring to the bomb bay for PR Role. 26 Installation of shortened bomb doors, deflector and fairing. 27 Installation of Day Camera Crate. 73 Installation of Night Camera Crate and Flash Container. 1514 Installation of long range bomb bay fuel tank. 2166 Front two windows blanked off each side. 2340 Survey camera window inserted into rear fairing. 3160 Bomb bay and other designated areas to be painted matt black." Can I add also that the landing gear bays and inside of the doors, on the PR Valiants, were also painted matt black, the mod being dated 23.8.62. It was an SOO (Special Order Only) mod applicable to eight aircraft. All the above thanks to Pete Sharp. Just to add to John Aero's comments. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, he is, of course, referring to the camera ports in the rear fuselage, the downward facing ones. HTH Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Nice one Dennis! Thanks to Pete too, that's a good heads up on the black wheel wells. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Nice one Dennis! Thanks to Pete too, that's a good heads up on the black wheel wells. John Found this photo from Garry O'Keefe (Editor - Victor Association Newsletter):- In answer to the unspoken question as to why they painted the u/c bays and doors black, the answer is obvious - Because they were told to !!! Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michou Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Camera windows- from the AP. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReccePhreak Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 FANTASTIC INFO!!! I just got a set of the "aftermarket" doors from a friend, but after seeing the markings that came in the set, I may just order another Valiant kit + Airfix "aftermarket" set. I have the AirDecal subdued set, but I like that dayglo version as well. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michou Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I don't have the Airfix mod kit but, judging from photos, I think that they got this one wrong. As Steve pointed out at the start of this thread, you don't take photos through curved windows. Did Airfix get the shortened bomb bay doors and deflector right? I don't think so. The reduced lengths result from an insert, the photo flash crate for the night role or the "fairing" for the day role. The fairing contains a vertical camera which can clearly be seen in the photo which John has posted. The question is - what are the dimensions of the bomb bay doors, insert and deflector? Where's that general when we need him? :-) http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o163/deMichu/ValiantPRNight.jpg Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Oh dear. More detail. If I were doing an original silver finish PR Valiant, as the Airfix markings provide, would that be before the shutters were added and the undercarriage wells painted black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datguy Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If I were doing an original silver finish PR Valiant, as the Airfix markings provide, would that be before the shutters were added and the undercarriage wells painted black? The Airfix conversion decals are for WZ399 in silver with red trim. This aircraft crashed at Offutt AFB in the US on 3 NOV 1961. Accodring to the Mod order posted above, the black wheel wells were authorized on 23 AUG 1962. Therefore it seems likely that it did not have the black wheel wells while in service. I can't access my PR conversion pieces right now but the CAD work and on-line photos indicate that the shortened doors are indeed not represented, The centerline door joint on the kit pieces passes through the survey camera port, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) Sorry folks, I seem to have opened a can of worms in a bag of nails, but thanks for all of your replies and particularly the photos and copy of the AP. Looking again at the latter items 70 are camera window doors and appear to travel fore and aft, rather than vertically. The photo of the earlier aircraft showing the small oblique camera ports above the deflector is very useful: I've been wondering about them as I'm using the Airfix aftermarket set and Airdecals sheet to do WZ380 in a hybrid colour scheme with the normal national markings above the wings and anti-flash national markings elsewhere. Thanks to your input I think I can do better camera ports than are in the kit without too much hassle, now all I need are replicas of the cameras to go behind them! All the best, Steve Edited December 20, 2012 by stever219 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michou Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Sorry folks, I seem to have opened a can of worms in a bag of nails, but thanks for all of your replies and particularly the photos and copy of the AP. Looking again at the latter items 70 are camera window doors and appear to travel fore and aft, rather than vertically. The photo of the earlier aircraft showing the small oblique camera ports above the deflector is very useful: I've been wondering about them as I'm using the Airfix aftermarket set and Airdecals sheet to do WZ380 in a hybrid colour scheme with the normal national markings above the wings and anti-flash national markings elsewhere. Thanks to your input I think I can do better camera ports than are in the kit without too much hassle, now all I need are replicas of the cameras to go behind them! All the best, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michou Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 What went wrong there? Let's try again. A small correction: items 70 are the windows and 69 the sliding doors. The doors slide forward to open. Perhaps this drawing is clearer. The doors have the diagonal frame. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Where's that general when we need him? :-) He's here Mike and watching this with interest as I'm almost done with my PR build. I have the same info from Pete and the same drawings, though that shot showing the extra window set higher on the starboard fuselage side is interesting and not one I've seen before, from what I can make out on the other photo it looks like it's repeated on the port side too. ! It looks to me from the drawings and the first photo that the square ports are recessed with the glazing which is optically flat set well back to allow the doors to close between them, (but did the doors just sit over the glass in the ports or did they slide up flush to the bomb door?). I'll have to look closely at the kit parts to see what can be done Great bit of detective work men... Melchie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley420 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Crikey how big a bulb did the flash have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 Thanks Mike, that blow-up is a lot clearer. Being both visually challenged and a cr4p typist I'm surprised I can nderstand what I've typed, let alone expecting you poor souls to understand my meaanderings. General, if the doors are anyting like the ones on the Canberra they probably closed just about flush to the outer skin of the bomb/camera bay doors. Mike's blow-up doesn't show any tracks that I can see for the doors to run aft and then outwards on to close, but maybe the other part of the drawing will show them for us. Thanks again chaps, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B (Sc) Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) On 12/21/2012 at 9:11 PM, charley420 said: Crikey how big a bulb did the flash have? Presumably the aircraft dropped photoflood flares - Lepus or similar? - on its run in? I always wondered about those - rather a giveaway of position, but I suppose anyone looking is dazzled for quite a while?  I see the listing of items includes a 'photoflash crate' . Edited July 10, 2020 by John B (Sc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Ranger Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Great info there, especially for those of us on this side of the pond not familiar with this Valiant variant (Vickers Variant?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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