SaintsPhil Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Good morning all, I have a quick question that google can't answer! Does the US version of the first generation T-Bird use the Martin Baker seats or the US version? Thanks Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) They first flew in the UK with MBs, but were fitted with Stencels, I think, before they went into service. The key is in the position of the grab handles - if they are at the top of the headbox, it's a Stencel. MB 9s had the handle between the pilots legs! Edited November 28, 2012 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintsPhil Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Ah thanks Dave I'll look out for the handles on some pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocksAway Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Phil According to the NAVAIR 01-AV8A-1 document (Change 4 - 31 October 1974), seats were as follows AV-8A aircraft 158384 through 158711 (i,e. the first batch of 30) had MB Mk.9A seats originally AV-8A and TAV-8A aircraft from 158948 upwards had Stencel SEU-3/A seats After change AFC 16 (the details of which I cannot currently lay my hands on), MB seats were swapped for Stencels in the AV-8As. On that basis, I don't think TAV-8As in the USMC ever had MB seats. TAV-8Bs have the Stencel S-III-S-3 / SJU-13/A in the front seat and the Stencel S-III-S-3 / SJU-14/A in the rear. They are the same basic seat, with different canopy breakers and different rocket installation positions / sides - which being at the back, means largely not noticeable. Edited November 28, 2012 by ChocksAway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintsPhil Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thanks Graham, how about the TAV-8A sold to the Spanish navy? See where I'm going with this?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Again, fitted with Stencels in service (but MBs when test flown in the UK in the UK!!). Edited November 28, 2012 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 According to the NAVAIR 01-AV8A-1 document (Change 4 - 31 October 1974), seats were as follows AV-8A aircraft 158384 through 158711 (i,e. the first batch of 30) had MB Mk.9A seats originally AV-8A and TAV-8A aircraft from 158948 upwards had Stencel SEU-3/A seats Interesting, Mason says the MB9s were changed for Stencels from the 90th production aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintsPhil Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thank you gents very useful as always! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocksAway Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) Interesting, Mason says the MB9s were changed for Stencels from the 90th production aircraft. Dave, Just goes to show, you pay's your money and you take your choice. In "The Harrier Story" - Davies/Thornborough, they quote "Stencels replaced the Martin-Baker Mk.9a in the final production batch (BuNos 159366 and up) and were retrofitted to earlier surviving examples in 1977-78)." This implies that the TAV-8As (159378-159385) were delivered with Stencels, which answers Phil's question and does not negate the NAVAIR statements on the trainers. Interestingly, "Harrier" - Calvert states "A final change, introduced from the 90th AV-8A, was the fitting of an American ejection seat, the Stencel SIIIS-3, in place of the Martin Baker Type 9 Mk 1. In "Harrier" Gunston, he quotes "Another retrofit in service was to replace the Mk 9D seat by the American Stencel SIII-S3." Andy Evans also refers to the Mk 9D and the retrofit being completed in the "Phase 1 modifications". This of course means I'm 3-1 down with full time fast approaching to determine how many AV-8As had which seats and when! So someone's got it wrong, but I don't know who. (I feel a trip to the Brooklands archive coming for me!). I also thought the SEU-3/A and SIIIS-3 (SJU-4/A / SJU-13A / SJU-14A derivatives) are different seats, the latter going in the AV-8B / TAV-8B. The SEU-3/A has overhead twin hand-pullsand the between the legs single version, the SIIIS-3 does not have the over-heads. I think it's safe to say that as the TAV-8As were in the last batch, they would have had Stencel seats - and all the photos I just browsed suggest that is true. As for the Spanish, again I can't see why they would have had MB seats whilst in use in the Spanish and Thai Navies. Edited November 29, 2012 by ChocksAway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintsPhil Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Can you guys suggest a good source for a picture of the seat? Can't seem to find anything on google, probably due to operator error... Or better still are there any out there in 1/72 that you know of?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocksAway Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Phil There are a few in some books - I'll mail you something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Dave, Just goes to show, you pay's your money and you take your choice. In "The Harrier Story" - Davies/Thornborough, they quote "Stencels replaced the Martin-Baker Mk.9a in the final production batch (BuNos 159366 and up) and were retrofitted to earlier surviving examples in 1977-78)." This implies that the TAV-8As (159378-159385) were delivered with Stencels, which answers Phil's question and does not negate the NAVAIR statements on the trainers. Interestingly, "Harrier" - Calvert states "A final change, introduced from the 90th AV-8A, was the fitting of an American ejection seat, the Stencel SIIIS-3, in place of the Martin Baker Type 9 Mk 1. In "Harrier" Gunston, he quotes "Another retrofit in service was to replace the Mk 9D seat by the American Stencel SIII-S3." Andy Evans also refers to the Mk 9D and the retrofit being completed in the "Phase 1 modifications". This of course means I'm 3-1 down with full time fast approaching to determine how many AV-8As had which seats and when! So someone's got it wrong, but I don't know who. (I feel a trip to the Brooklands archive coming for me!). I also thought the SEU-3/A and SIIIS-3 (SJU-4/A / SJU-13A / SJU-14A derivatives) are different seats, the latter going in the AV-8B / TAV-8B. The SEU-3/A has overhead twin hand-pullsand the between the legs single version, the SIIIS-3 does not have the over-heads. I think it's safe to say that as the TAV-8As were in the last batch, they would have had Stencel seats - and all the photos I just browsed suggest that is true. As for the Spanish, again I can't see why they would have had MB seats whilst in use in the Spanish and Thai Navies. Indeed, and I have a tendency to beleive the NAVAIR doc - unless they come from primary sources, I'd imagine the majority of the books just repeat the statements made previously. (The best one is in D&S on the AV-8A, where they show a pic of what they call the Stencel seat, which is actually a MB mk 10 from a Hawk!!). Maybe we should takethis off line (you will recall why I have an interest in this!) What is certain (from photos) is that the TAV-8As flew in the UK with MB seats but in the US and Spain with STencels (No photo I can find shows a TAV with MB seat in service) Can you guys suggest a good source for a picture of the seat? Can't seem to find anything on google, probably due to operator error... Or better still are there any out there in 1/72 that you know of?? In this pic, the middle seat is an SEU-3A, the single seater seat - as Graham says the maion difference in the two seaters is the shape of the canopy breaker at the top of the head box http://www.ejectionsite.com/texans/b1_seu_er.jpg You will note the similarity to the seat in the ESCI Harriers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) I also thought the SEU-3/A and SIIIS-3 (SJU-4/A / SJU-13A / SJU-14A derivatives) are different seats, the latter going in the AV-8B / TAV-8B. The SEU-3/A has overhead twin hand-pullsand the between the legs single version, the SIIIS-3 does not have the over-heads. SIIIS is the family name, the SEU-3A, SJU-4/A etc being model numbers within that family.. Stencel Aero Engineering Corporation developed the SIIIS family of ejection seats. Comparable in performance to the ACES II® ejection seat, the SIIIS incorporated several then unique features including the first use of a twin-tube catapult, twin-seat back rockets to supplement the catapult, and the DART® (Directional Automatic Realignment of Trajectory) system to provide roll and pitch stability. The SIIIS entered production for the USMC AV-8A Harrier in the early 1970s. http://www.goodrich.com/Goodrich/Enterprise/News/InFocus-Archive/Goodrich-Celebrates-29-Years-of-Helping-Save-Lives-with-Advanced-Concept-Ejection-Seats Edited November 30, 2012 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintsPhil Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thanks again guys, I've ordered a couple of the 1/72 Pavla AV8-B seats, I think it'll be an easy job to convert them from those pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Found some evidence as to why they flew with MB in the UK - The MOD refused to let the Hawker test pilots fly with the Stencels due to safety concerns raised by the Institute of Aviation Medicine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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