roma847 Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Mass said: Manfred that is a very, very thorough approach you've taken. I wonder if, following your dentists experiment, firing pure water through an airbrush with a fine tip might help? It seems that you need some mechanical force after any treatment in a cleaning bath, and an airbrush and water is in most modeller's arsenals. You would also have good control over pressure and coverage and could avoid having to use any metal object that might mar the expensive castings. Ciao Thanks Mass, this seems to be the normal way, but I would like to use the equipment of my Dental laboratory, whose effect is more intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 Hello everyone, as you can see on my outfit, I wanted to try sharper things today to finally cope with those annoying wax residuals. In the already mentioned PDF of Volkmar Meier for the cleaning of FUD/FXD-Prints he had i.a. even presented Stove cleaning spray as an effective remedy and seemingly successfully applied, which has made me curious. In order to test this initially rather unusual method on an IT, I contacted him by e-mail in France, to find out more about his procedure, to which he has surprisingly answered in German, which I almost suspected according to his name. The spray in his image is the DecapFour from Henkel available in France in the blue box containing caustic soda lye, and therefore is to be used with caution, which is why one absolutely should wear rubber gloves! He sprayed the models outdoors on a baking sheet from all sides with the oven spray and waited until the foam has dissipated, about 30-60 minutes. Then followed by one, two lukewarm water baths, where he scrubbed the models with an old toothbrush. In Germany there is a comparable spray under the name Sidol, which I got in the supermarket, and had to test it immediately in the garden, let's go! First of all, the IT in the box was vigorously foamed from all sides until it was no longer visible. And then I waited eagerly for the foam to finally dissolve ... But when nothing had happened after an hour, I got the tank out of the box and scrubbed it in the water bath around with the toothbrush for a few minutes. And because it was just so beautiful, I almost continued with myself, but I was just now able to hold myself back!!! Fun aside, because after the tank was dried, the disillusionment came promptly. As you can clearly see, there are in addition to clean areas still with wax residuals, both between the stringers, as well as in the fine grooves of the Thrust Panel, and especially under raised details such as the Access Door and the two Fairings. Furthermore, it is noticeable that the stringer grooves of the rear half of the tank are clean, whereas those in the front half still contain wax, which I can not explain. That's why I grabbed the steel ruler to remove the residuals, which is possible, but very tedious and therefore not the yellow of the egg. But maybe someone of you has an explanation for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 2, 2018 Author Share Posted May 2, 2018 Hello everybody, now it's starting to get scary and spoil all the fun with tiny details, but maybe that's the curse of the many grooves. On the one hand the cleaning of this Intertank with its many fine grooves obviously is an extremely hard nut and very difficult to handle. But on the other hand it also seems to be a problem of the post-treatment and cleaning of prints by Shapeways itself, because the third IT seems have been treated more thoroughly and consequently to be cleaner than this first IT. Other guys have also noticed and complained about this different quality of the post-treatment, as I've read in several forums. Maybe Shapeways would have to let him in the oven for longer to melt out the residual wax completely. In this context, I remember a passage in Shapeways Magazine (1. Model Prep) with the following interesting tip, which could be a broad hint for all users. **TIP** If you notice an excess amount of residual support material or details are distorted, this may call for a reprint. Please send an image and order number to [email protected]. And then the following thing does not go out of my mind. This is the BANDELIN video about the ultrasonic cleaning of a chain I posted on March 14, where one had cleaned for about 4 h at 70°C until all the wax was dissolved. This longer time we will take into consideration when cleaning the final IT in the Dental Lab next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichO Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Oh Manfred, your such a handsome guy, nice photos! Good luck with the cleaning process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Thanks Rich for your nice compliment and the good wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Hello friends, meanwhile, I also got the WSF-Intertank, which gives me a comparison between these two materials. And I have to confess that I'm quite surprised, especially since the details come out well despite the slightly grainy surface. And since there is no shrinkage in the WSF material during printing, the IT fits exactly between the two ET parts. Of course, the roughness looks blatant on these macro shots, but already with some distance from the normal viewing perspective, it looks much friendlier. And if the IT will be painted, he should also fit optically well to the other two ET parts, which additionally shall get their insulating foam look. Since WSF printing uses powdered plastic and no support wax, the parts have only a slight powdery residue that can be removed by slight rinsing off in dish water, as my ARC friend Bill (niart17) has reported for his 1/72 WSF-Intertank. Because WSF is porous and sucks up a lot of moisture, one should let the parts dry for several days, before one applies a primer. But all in all it means, that cleaning of WSF parts should be less expensive than of FUD parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 Hello everybody, before I go into detail about with the final FUD-IT, here are both IT variants one more time in comparison. In preparation for the cleaning campaign in the Dental Lab I have again scrutinized the FUD-IT under my new magnifying glass and taken macro shots all-around, in order to be able to better control the critical points on site, whether or how far the wax residuals have been removed. As I have already described, the last of the three FUD-ITs has the fewest wax residuals, once more confirming the different quality of the Shapeways aftertreatment. In the circled areas one can see clusters of wax residuals in the grooves, which are visible more or less well due to the low FUD contrast. And after a full circumnavigation of the IT, I'm back at the starting point at the two Fairings, wherewith I want to let it go at that for today. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustermark Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Thanks for the reviews of the different materials. I think the trouble you had with FUD is definitely suggesting that is too much effort - and I do not have such an accommodating dentist! Consequently, I have ordered a WSF version from Shapeways and saved some money into the bargain. I imagine a light brushing with my fibreglass brush will smooth the surface without taking off the details, and hopefully priming and painting will help. Now I suppose I just need an Airfix version of the shuttle stack to use it with... 😲🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Hi Mark, the first steps are always the hardest. But one should not give up too fast and bite oneself through this tricky matter. That you also have ordered a WSF IT, I think great, and Michael Key will be happy too. Here is an interesting Painting 3D printed SLS model tutorial for WSF printed parts, which is certainly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustermark Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 Received my WSF intertank today. Looks like it will be just fine with very little prep. I’m very happy with it. 😁 Many thanks to you, Manfred, and to Michael for your joint hard work in making this very neatly detailed part available on Shapeways. 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 11, 2018 Author Share Posted May 11, 2018 Hi Mark, I am pleased with you and Michael Key will surely be delighted too. With all its cool details this IT will become an amazing eye catcher for every External Tank, whose effort was worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 Hello everybody, in preparation for the decisive cleaning of the last FUD-IT in the Dental lab, I have dealt more intensively with the matter and looked around further. In the already shown BANDELIN Video of the ultrasonic cleaning of the chain the intensive cleaner TICKOPUR R 60 (10%) was used for approx. 2 - 3 h at 70 °C. In a corresponding product information of the DR. H. STAMM GmbH I found this information, which made me unsure referring to the cleaning time, as they are much shorter. Application with ultrasound Dosage: 2 - 20 % Cleaning time: 1 - 10 min. Temperature: 20 - 80 °C Application without ultrasound Dosage: 10 - 30 % Cleaning time: up to 12 h Temperature: 20 - 80 °C Therefore I have contacted BANDELIN and received the following answer from the DR. H. STAMM GmbH (Plant Manager Stephan Herzberg), what amazed me at first. The cleaning time in removing the support material is a special application, which deviates considerably from the usual vleaning times, which are recommended in the product information, but have been determined by tests and have already been used successfully by several customers. A soapy water will probably not bring the desired cleaning result even with prolonged time, which you can of course test. We recommend the use of TICKOPUR R 60 with the application parameters given in the video. Thereupon I contacted the manager and first learned that the DR. H. STAMM GmbH historically belongs to the corporate group BANDELIN and cleaning and disinfection preparations for SONOREX Ultrasound Technology developed and produced. Then he willingly gave me information to my questions about the application parameters given in the video , as well as special advice for cleaning my Intertank. Since the strongest ultrasound effect in the trough occurs from below, the IT should not be upright during the cleaning because of the grooves, but lying longitudinally in a glass insert, and by stepwise rotation about the longitudinal axis after about 15 minutes in TICKOPUR Bath at 70 °C cleaned and checked in between. For the best cavitation performance, the glass insert should have a distance from the bottom of the tank of approx. 2 - 3 cm and, because of the connection itself, also be surrounded by water + cleaning agent, otherwise losses would occur. Considering the filigree grooves of the Intertanks he thinks that longer cleaning times of about 2 - 3 h might be necessary, which is why checks after shorter intervals would make sense. Now all I have to do is wait for the ordered TICKOPUR, and then I will go back to the Dental lab for the Final Countdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichO Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Quite the process Manfred. I hope all works out well for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 Thanks Rich for your good wishes I hope the TICKOPUR will support the job effectively. And therefore I think I'll manage it with the final IT at my next trip to the Detal Lab if I follow the instructions of the BANDELIN expert. Otherwise I take the WSF IT, which fortunately has no support wax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_W Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 You know, when you finish this you have two SRBs to make... ; o ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 14, 2018 Author Share Posted May 14, 2018 Are you sure, John, only two SRBs? Well then I'm reassured!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_W Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 ...and then all those individual tiles on the shuttle. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 15, 2018 Author Share Posted May 15, 2018 That's right, but therefor amazing decal sheets are available meanwhile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 Hello friends, due to some short vacation in the Dental lab the Ultrasonic cleaning of the FUD-Intertank will take some time, I've thought again about the further building process and came to the following decision. Since I've been working intensively on the External Tank/Intertank lately, it actually makes sense to keep going and completing it as the basic building block for the Shuttle Stack, i.e. including the related details such as LO2 Feedline, GO2/GH2Press. Lines, the Ice/Frost Ramps and PAL Ramps, as well as the Orbiter Attachments. This includes then also the imitation of the Instafoam insulation structure of the front and rear ET parts by the special "Flour technique" as well as the final priming and paintwork. Then it will continue with the SRBs and the Orbiter, which finally complete the Shuttle stack. Only then will I proceed to the construction of the Launch Tower (FSS/RSS), whereby the complete stack MLP will be available for control, in particular when it will depend on every millimeter for increasing the tower to the needed height. Furthermore I decided for not to let be modeled the Ice/Frost Ramps as a 3D set, but rather to use the filigree ramps from the already presented Newware Kit (NW131), which one can not do better actually, which is why I have now bought myself this kit, which I would like to introduce here again briefly in some images. These are predominantly resin parts, as well as a PE sheet with finest details for the ET and the SRBs as well as for the orbiter, incl. some Decals. Although the kit is designed specifically for the Revell Shuttle Stack (1/144), some parts can also be used for the Airfix Stack, so such as here among others the fine structured SRB Forward Frustum & Nose Cone, if I measured correctly. Below are some of the tiny Ice/Frost Ramps and one of the filigree SSME engine nozzles. Here is the PE sheet once again. For the engine nozzles, I actually wanted to use the kit from RealSpace Models, which I had set aside already long time ago and now could compare to the Newware nozzles. It immediately stands out that the RealSpace SSMEs look more squat and seem to be slightly larger than those of Newware. And once we're comparing already, I also added the nozzles of Revell (left) and those of Airfix (grey), from which you can now choose what you like better ... For my taste, then the SSMEs of Revell and Airfix quickly discards, whereby this begs immediately the question of the dimensions in comparison to the original. I have only found these SSME dimensions by Pratt & Whitney: Lenght: 168 in. = 4,30 m = 29,9 mm (1/144)Diameter: 96 in. = Ø 2,40 m = Ø 16,7 mm (1/144) Unfortunately this is only the total length of the SSME, but not the length of the engine nozzle. Maybe someone can help. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichO Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Hi Manfred, Obviously the Newware nozzle looks the best, but you decide which works the best for you. I'm sorry I don't know the nozzle length. Perhaps one of your friends over at nasaspaceflight might have that info. I like that you are starting to bash other kits for this mighty project, (Lots of left over parts to mess with later on). Doing what ever you need to, to make this build outstanding is why it's looking so good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustermark Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I agree with Rich that the New Ware looks the best shape accordingto this SSME picture. How does the diameter measure up? The diameter and distance apart from each other will be a huge factor in looking right! I’m not sure about size, but the Real Space looks the odd one out and I’m hoping that the New Ware is accurate as I also have that kit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 Thanks Rich and Mark, I fully agree with you, regarding the Newware Nozzles. In D. R. Jenkins' great book Space Shuttle - The First 100 Missions which is really an awesome source, I have found this SSME drawing with the two dimensions already known (L1/D1) from which I have determined the other dimensions, which should be accurate. By using this drawing I come to a Nozzle length of 17,3 mm (1/144). Here is a comparison of the dimensions of all four Nozzles with the original, based on this drawing. This confirms the visual impression that the RealSpace Nozzles look a bit too plump and are larger than those of Newware, which is also illustrated by this image. And that's why I can live well with the Newware Nozzles and I'll most likely use them. Unless I let myself get carried away by the 3D version (1/144) of my ARC friend Bill (niParts), but then I would be right back to the damn support wax, and this stuff then remove from those fragile pipes ... Quelle: shapeways.com (niParts) BTW, as Shapeways meanwhile has updated the names of their materials, one will have to get used to new terms. - Smooth Fine Detail Plastic is the new name for FUD, - Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic for FXD, and - White Natural Versatile Plastic for WSF. Because there are apparently still no shortcuts, I continue to use the usual old shortcuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Ranger Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Looks like Revell got the dimensions pretty close to begin with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roma847 Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 The dimensions are okay, but the details are more than humble ... Strictly speaking one has to say: No nozzle is perfect! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnapollo Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 The Revell SSME's are pretty unusable in my opinion, the detail basicly being stepped plastic. If I do get round to doing a project of an example of every orbiter and a full stack Endeavour I couldn't afford so many Neware SSMEs, so in the process of collecting as many Airfix ones as I can. They might not be perfect but far superior to the Revell ones. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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