RAF Sabres

[Wez]

The Academy kit does indeed have the 6"3" wing with slats, that equates to a Canadair Mk 6 which it was also issued as.

Earlier wings have to be either cut down by taking out the 6"3" part, remember that on early wing sabres it does not have the little piece that was taken off to open the gun bay door, as it overlapped the door, Airfix mark this quite clearly as a small triangle on the leading edge of the wing, but you would need to make your own slats.

Alternatives are to fudge it and just live with the Academy wing, this would be my prefered option, although to cover up your sin you could rescribe the Gun Bay door on the fuselage.

Cut down the Academy wing, not easy, with all the slat tracks hanging out the front

Also all D model Sabres kept the early wing, so possible to cross kit, but I know the old Airfix one doesn't have seperate flaps, can't say about the Hasegawa, although that is an expensive exercise.

The ancient F86A by Matchbox had the early wing also, but no seperate slats.

The Airfix D does not have separate slats, neither does the Hasegawa D which is surprising as it came out about the same time as their Tomcats and F-111's which had all of the dangly bits doing just that but IIRC, their F-86D has long-span wings (because the Japanese used long spanned D's), so that wing is out as well as being an expensive way of doing things.

Did the long span wings of the D's have the 6-3 extension as per Sabre 6's?

Wez

[Scott Hemsley]

"I lined up the Heller wing with the Fujimi,Academy,Hobbycraft and Hasegawa,and the Heller wing came up 2-3 mm narrower than the others,which were all the same also by my mesurments the Heller wing is 2 mm narrower than the Milberry drawing.Therefore, you are telling me that Heller got it right and the other 4 got it wrong.I compared the Milberry drawing to the 1/48 Hasegawa and Academy and Milberry came up 2 mm narrower than the 2 manufactures.that points to the Heller wing as being to narrow in cord for a 6/3 wing."

James....

I'm not sure of the points you measured on the Heller wing vs the Milberry drawing, but if you used my references, they'd be identical. If you included the length of fuselage behind the trailing edge and the 'corresponding' panel line on the drawings, yes - there is a descrepency because the length of fuselage behind the trailing edge on the Heller kit is shorter than the 'corresponding' section on the Milberry drawing. That's why I chose to measure from the leading to trailing edge along the wing root.

Never asasume that a kit is so infalible that it is a milestone for all other kits to aspire to (always go with specs - such as on P.367 in the Milberry book - & photos) and yes, Fujimi, Hobbycraft and Academy (or any other 'Fujimi-wannabe-clones') did get it wrong - not only with the cord, but the span. They're about 1' too short, being closer to 36' and not the 37+' that specs spell out for ALL Canadair Sabre varients. So, in answer to your question ... in that respect ... Heller did get it right.

Scott

Edited October 21, 2012 by Scott Hemsley

[Julien]

Although boxed with German Mk6 decals,the model is a mixed bag.First the wing is the narrow cord Mk1,2.3.& 4. and F-86 A,E and early Fs.Then the fuslage has the side vents of the Canadair sabres ,no sugar scoops of the Mk6 and it has the raised pizza box on top of the fuslage just forward of the vertical stab,ala the 86F

Thanks for that James, that's why I was saying the Heller kit is wrong for a German Machine, I generally use them to depict An early F. Its a very nice kit in that regard.

Julien

[maurice]

the leadingedse slats on F-86K in the Dutch Air Force were occasionally pushed closed and then fixed with some broad green tape ( nowadays we would use duct tape) to prevent wind rattling the flaps when the plane was parked outside in the open air , or to prevent someone hurting its fingers during maintenance

Maurice

[James Craik]

"I lined up the Heller wing with the Fujimi,Academy,Hobbycraft and Hasegawa,and the Heller wing came up 2-3 mm narrower than the others,which were all the same also by my mesurments the Heller wing is 2 mm narrower than the Milberry drawing.Therefore, you are telling me that Heller got it right and the other 4 got it wrong.I compared the Milberry drawing to the 1/48 Hasegawa and Academy and Milberry came up 2 mm narrower than the 2 manufactures.that points to the Heller wing as being to narrow in cord for a 6/3 wing."

James....

I'm not sure of the points you measured on the Heller wing vs the Milberry drawing, but if you used my references, they'd be identical. If you included the length of fuselage behind the trailing edge and the 'corresponding' panel line on the drawings, yes - there is a descrepency because the length of fuselage behind the trailing edge on the Heller kit is shorter than the 'corresponding' section on the Milberry drawing. That's why I chose to measure from the leading to trailing edge along the wing root.

Never asasume that a kit is so infalible that it is a milestone for all other kits to aspire to (always go with specs - such as on P.367 in the Milberry book - & photos) and yes, Fujimi, Hobbycraft and Academy (or any other 'Fujimi-wannabe-clones') did get it wrong - not only with the cord, but the span. They're about 1' too short, being closer to 36' and not the 37+' that specs spell out for ALL Canadair Sabre varients. So, in answer to your question ... in that respect ... Heller did get it right.

Scott

I took the liberty of going to the Canadian warplanes museum and measured the wing on a Mk6.from leading edge to trailing edge it is 123.5 inches or 313,7cms.which is 6.54 cms in 1/48.The Milberry drawing is 6.3 cms which is 2,4 mm two narrow.Never assume that all scale drawings are correct.

Edited October 24, 2012 by James Craik

[Paul J]

I took the liberty of going to the Canadian warplanes museum and measured the wing on a Mk6.from leading edge to trailing edge it is 123.5 inches or 313,7cms.which is 6.54 cms in 1/48.The Milberry drawing is 6.3 cms which is 2,4 mm two narrow.Never assume that all scale drawings are correct.

Your latter comment regarding scale drawings is something that I have said before but not on this thread. Which is why I am dubious about accuracy of kits based on so and sos' drawings. I just hope that the kit manufacturers are giving us at least 80-90 % accuracy. As long as they look like they are what they are supposed to be and thats it for me..... give or take really obvious errors! No, I'm not a micrometer modeller by any means. And I know I would never stand a chance at huge model show comps. Doing average at club level and small shows is OK for me and its the pleasure I get out of building them rather than worry about whether a Sabe kit differs from one to another dimensionally. Though I will pick up on some detail differences, I have an open mind on such matters. As in real life there are always exceptions to the rule like whether an aeroplane has an anomaly that is non standard etc.

[Jennings Heilig]

FWIW the Milberry drawings, while very nice, are not as accurate as those in the Hasegawa kit instruction sheet.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Also notice in that pic that the slats can be pushed closed (NOT "pinned" as many modelers seem to think - that would be near suicide for a pilot), and will stay that way until disturbed (as in by taxiing the airplane). But they also hang open by gravity unless pushed closed.

Thanks Jennings. That was going to be my next question. I fancy converting an Airfix kit to an early narrow-chord wing model. This means I can take the easy way out and just scribe in the slats.

Apart from the wing, what else would be involved in converting the Airfix kit to an F-86A. Is it just a case of sanding down the tailplane mounting fairings?

[Scott Hemsley]

"I took the liberty of going to the Canadian warplanes museum and measured the wing on a Mk6.from leading edge to trailing edge it is 123.5 inches or 313,7cms.which is 6.54 cms in 1/48.The Milberry drawing is 6.3 cms which is 2,4 mm two narrow."

Thanks, James. That's what this discussion needed and what I requested, earlier.

"Never assume that all scale drawings are correct."

That's true, but it's sometimes all we have. Not everyone has a preserved example available to them, so it's either rely on the 'scale drawings' or a third party that has access to a preserved example to do what you did and measure the questionable area, on our behalf.

That not only resolves the accuracy of the drawings, but it also confirms another matter ... and that is the question of the Heller wing ... is it narrow-cord or 6-3? Your measurement of 123.5" (10' 29") confirms that, at a shade over 10' as measured by a SAM scale ruler laid against the wing root of a upper wing half ... the Heller wing is indeed representative of a 6-3 wing.

Thanks again for checking the Sabre 6 at the CWH on our behalf.

Scott

Scott

Edited October 25, 2012 by Scott Hemsley

[James Craik]

"I took the liberty of going to the Canadian warplanes museum and measured the wing on a Mk6.from leading edge to trailing edge it is 123.5 inches or 313,7cms.which is 6.54 cms in 1/48.The Milberry drawing is 6.3 cms which is 2,4 mm two narrow."

Thanks, James. That's what this discussion needed and what I requested, earlier.

"Never assume that all scale drawings are correct."

That's true, but it's sometimes all we have. Not everyone has a preserved example available to them, so it's either rely on the 'scale drawings' or a third party that has access to a preserved example to do what you did and measure the questionable area, on our behalf.

That not only resolves the accuracy of the drawings, but it also confirms another matter ... and that is the question of the Heller wing ... is it narrow-cord or 6-3? Your measurement of 123.5" (10' 29") confirms that, at a shade over 10' as measured by a SAM scale ruler laid against the wing root of a upper wing half ... the Heller wing is indeed representative of a 6-3 wing.

Thanks again for checking the Sabre 6 at the CWH on our behalf.

Scott

Scott

No,the heller wing is slightly narrower than the 6/3 wing and the others are slightly wider.But for my building purposes,the two side by side with the differences shown Heller is narrow cord and Fujimi and the others are 6/3.

Edited October 25, 2012 by James Craik

[Shalako]

Hello chaps,

I've been reading this thread and I must say that I keep getting more confused regarding all these details.

So, I woiuld like to ask the following: Is the Heller kit accurate? For example, for building a German Sabre. If the German Sabres were produced in Canada does this mean that I can also build a British Sabre? As far as I know, there was a certain number of airframes that were build in Canada and then served with the RAF. Am I right?

Thank you for your time.

Cheers

Sernak

[Scott Hemsley]

The RAF recieved all but 10 (according to one source I read) of Canadair's Sabre 4's. They were initially delivered with the narrow-cord, slated wing (same as the Sabre 2) but were retro-fitted with the 6-3 non-slated/hard-edge wing, while serving with the RAF.

As for the Heller kit. Just remove the so-called 'pizza plate' immediately in front of the fin fillet & you have a Canadair Sabre 6 - so you're good to go building a Luftwaffe example, OOTB. Ignoring the corrections required to the Airfix wing (which some would do in any case), you can do a Luftwaffe Sabre 5 from the Airfix kit with nothing but a decal change. Essentially, the Aifix kit - marketed as as Sabre 4 with the 6-3 hard-edge wing, is externally a Sabre 5.

In terms of an RAF example, you could use the Heller kit as a basis, but you'd have to convert the 6-3 slatted wing to a 6-3 non-slate/hard-edge wing by filling in the engraved slats & scribe a couple of new panel lines. As an alternative, just pick up the Airfix kit .. which considering it is a RAF (Canadair) Sabre 4 with the 6-3 hard-edge wing, it can be done OOTB.

If you wished to do one of the Sabre 4's as initially delivered, you would either have to trim the Heller/Airfix wing down to a narrow-cord wing or try to get one of the resin narrow-cord wings done by Scooby-Do Productions. Unfortunately, these are OOP and according to a LHS staff member who's raised this matter with the person responsible for the wings - there are no plans to resume production of this product. That leaves E-Bay or a private sale as your only alternatives. I only wish that I'd picked two up when I had the opportunity as I want to do both a RCAF Sabre 2 and a Sabre 4.

Note: In some cases, RAF Sabre 4's were diverted from the RAF order (in full RAF NMF markings) to RCAF sqn.s awaiting their Sabre 5's. These a/c soon sprouted a 'temporary' combination of RAF/RCAF markings - including some very colourful sqn. markings. By the time these were returned to the RAF during 'Leapfrog 4', some of these a/c were sporting full RCAF markings. Milberry's book "The Canadair Sabre" has several good photos covering this period.

Scott

Edited October 25, 2012 by Scott Hemsley

[Wez]

The RAF recieved all but 10 (according to one source I read) of Canadair's Sabre 4's. They were initially delivered with the narrow-cord, slated wing (same as the Sabre 2) but were retro-fitted with the 6-3 non-slated/hard-edge wing, while serving with the RAF.

Not so, some were delivered with the 6-3 wing from manufacture.

Wez

[Jennings Heilig]

As for the Heller kit. Just remove the so-called 'pizza plate' immediately in front of the fin fillet & you have a Canadair Sabre 6 - so you're good to go building a Luftwaffe example, OOTB.

No, not at all. I don't have the Heller kit in front of me (haven't owned one in decades), but if, as has been posted here, it has a narrow chord wing, then it's not a Canadair Mk.6. The Mk.5 and Mk.6 had the wider chord '6-3' leading edge extension wing from the get-go. Also, FWIW, there are several panel line and access panel differences on the mid fuselage (both sides) on the Mk.5 and 6 due to the different engine (Orenda) that those types had.

J

[Scott Hemsley]

Jennings....

James (who also insists on validating his POV by comparison of other kits) has shown by his own measurements of a preserved Sabre 6, that the Heller wing is a 6-3 wing. I include the following: (italics are James)

I took the liberty of going to the Canadian warplanes museum and measured the wing on a Mk6.from leading edge to trailing edge it is 123.5 inches or 313,7cms.which is 6.54 cms in 1/48.The Milberry drawing is 6.3 cms which is 2,4 mm two narrow.

Thanks, James. That's what this discussion needed and what I requested, earlier.

Never assume that all scale drawings are correct.

That's true, but it's sometimes all we have. Not everyone has a preserved example available to them, so it's either rely on the 'scale drawings' or a third party that has access to a preserved example to do what you did and measure the questionable area, on our behalf.

That not only resolves the accuracy of the drawings, but it also confirms another matter ... and that is the question of the Heller wing ... is it narrow-cord or 6-3? Your measurement of 123.5" (10' 29") confirms that, at a shade over 10' as measured by a SAM scale ruler laid against the wing root of a upper wing half ... the Heller wing is indeed representative of a 6-3 wing.

Thanks again for checking the Sabre 6 at the CWH on our behalf."

How can the Heller wing be the narrow-cord wing if it agrees with an actual measurement of a Sabre 6 wing root?

James' insistance is based upon that the Heller kit is narrower than the Fujimi wing. For this, he has to make the assumption that the Fujimi wing is infalibly correct. Considering the span of the Fujimi wing is a whole foot less than the published span for the Canadair Sabre (all varients) - that's one strike against it. What else is wrong with it?

Anyway, there is one quote that sums up this hobby ...'Build what you want and how you want" or something to that effect; James' reply to the above post sums his POV up nicely...

No,the heller wing is slightly narrower than the 6/3 wing and the others are slightly wider.But for my building purposes,the two side by side with the differences shown Heller is narrow cord and Fujimi and the others are 6/3.

By 'others', I assume that James means Hobbycraft & Academy. There may be a few others who've based their kits on Fujimi, other than the two I've mentioned... so it's no surprise he claims 'all the others' dispute the Heller wing. If Fujimi is wrong, so are they. He's entitled to that position, but what I do find surprising is that he chooses to ignore his own conclusive findings and maintain his position soley on the basis of a comparison of model kits.

Anyway, individual modellers can make their own decision. I'll continue to use available confirmed & verifiable measurements (as James provided) to answer questions of accurcy rather than rely on another kit.

Scott

[Jennings Heilig]

Sorry, I missed that exchange. So we're then saying that all the other 1/72 kits are wrong, in that their wings have a greater chord than the Heller kit??? I'm glad I don't do 1/72 much anymore

[Graeme H]

Firstly congratulations John on choosing the Academy Sabre, it will look good, it is a good kit and the easy option if you want dropped slats

remember life is too short to get too much into AMS, in what can be an easy an enjoyable build

The Airfix D does not have separate slats, neither does the Hasegawa D which is surprising as it came out about the same time as their Tomcats and F-111's which had all of the dangly bits doing just that but IIRC, their F-86D has long-span wings (because the Japanese used long spanned D's), so that wing is out as well as being an expensive way of doing things.

Did the long span wings of the D's have the 6-3 extension as per Sabre 6's?

Wez

I think if the JSDF used long span wings, they were a late fit, all photos I have show their D's with short span wings, or maybe Hasegawa got it wrong, (no, that could never happen could it?), and never heard of any D with anything other than the original wing, the long span was first developed for the L version developed from the D and as in the excellent Sabre Wings site, also the fuselage of the L was slightly longer making it different in just about every way to the D

Now the big question is did the L have 6-3 wings, it is suggested that it did in the Sabre wings site, as they claim that it is the same wing fitted to the F-40 and H models which would mean that the extension wouldn't fit an earlier wing, so did the JSDF fit later wings to their Dogs, and if so can anyone provide a photo of such.

Also, are you sure the 1/72 Hasegawa D has longer wings? or were they were planning a F86F-40 fuselage to make the JSDF version?

given that the most obvious recognition feature of short span wings is the cranked pitot as opposed to the straight pitot of the extended wings

Koku Fan show the wings to be different from the D to L, but a quick measure shows it to be the same chord, i'm not saying this means anything at all, just an observation

And back to real life, I will never forget my dissapointment when I first looked at the preserved A at Duxford, too see that it had 6-3 hard wings fitted, with the small fence removed and thin black tape applied to make it look like a slatted wing, "oh the humanity".

[Julien]

And back to real life, I will never forget my dissapointment when I first looked at the preserved A at Duxford, too see that it had 6-3 hard wings fitted, with the small fence removed and thin black tape applied to make it look like a slatted wing, "oh the humanity".

You dont mean G-SABR do you?

If so its an A model but the slats are wired closed and fence added. This was done as they could not get the correct parts for the slats to move (or so I am told)

Julien

[Wez]

Also, are you sure the 1/72 Hasegawa D has longer wings? or were they were planning a F86F-40 fuselage to make the JSDF version?

Actually, no I'm not, not any more, I'll dig it out of the stash to confirm and post a photo if needs be, but that won't be until Sunday at the earliest now.

given that the most obvious recognition feature of short span wings is the cranked pitot as opposed to the straight pitot of the extended wings

Personally, I go by whether the ailerons go all the way to the wingtip, They do on short span wings don't on long span.

[-Neu-]

No, not at all. I don't have the Heller kit in front of me (haven't owned one in decades), but if, as has been posted here, it has a narrow chord wing, then it's not a Canadair Mk.6. The Mk.5 and Mk.6 had the wider chord '6-3' leading edge extension wing from the get-go. Also, FWIW, there are several panel line and access panel differences on the mid fuselage (both sides) on the Mk.5 and 6 due to the different engine (Orenda) that those types had.

J

I built one as a Mk IV. I had a guy who was the Canadair Sabre guru on ARC advise me on it. Here is the build.

[Wez]

Nice work there Neu, that's a very eye-catching scheme too!

Wez

[-Neu-]

Thank you, I appreciate it. Still I kinda preferred the Mk V I built at the same time (Fujimi 1/72). Too bad the fuselage seems a bit wonky.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Edited October 26, 2012 by -Neu-

[Giorgio N]

Now the big question is did the L have 6-3 wings, it is suggested that it did in the Sabre wings site, as they claim that it is the same wing fitted to the F-40 and H models which would mean that the extension wouldn't fit an earlier wing, so did the JSDF fit later wings to their Dogs, and if so can anyone provide a photo of such.

The L wing had the 6-3 extension, at least this is what is written in a North American drawing I have in a book that shows the L wing with the differences between this and the original D wing.

The same wing was used on the K and the various fuselage vents of this version make it easier to see the leading edge extention when comparing pictures of aircrafts with the 2 wings

[Dave Fleming]

You dont mean G-SABR do you?

If so its an A model but the slats are wired closed and fence added. This was done as they could not get the correct parts for the slats to move (or so I am told)

Julien

I suspect he means the one that was in rthe AAM, that's now at Coventry.

[Julien]

The L wing had the 6-3 extension, at least this is what is written in a North American drawing I have in a book that shows the L wing with the differences between this and the original D wing.

The same wing was used on the K and the various fuselage vents of this version make it easier to see the leading edge extention when comparing pictures of aircrafts with the 2 wings

Yes the L's were re-worked D's. They put the longer wing on and a new SAGE fire control system.

12" wing-tip extensions & 6-3 leading edge extensions with slats increased the L's span to 39.1 feet (Same as the F-86F-40)

For the K just to confuse things they had separate wings as well. The US delivered ones and the early Fiat production had the smaller F-86D wing. Later production had the larger F-86L wing. Larger wings were also retro fitted at least to the Dutch aircraft as far as I know.

We need a book just one sabre wings!!

Julien