RAF Sabres

[Paul J]

Doesn't the link posted above, the F-86... tripod one, make it clear enough regarding the wings!

I may have got my mark numbers mixed up for the RAF ones but I know what I was on about re the retro fitting of slats that occured on RAF Sabres according to the book by Duncan ?? And some US sources too. Does this mean that even the most revered references are lying to us???

[Julien]

Doesn't the link posted above, the F-86... tripod one, make it clear enough regarding the wings!

I may have got my mark numbers mixed up for the RAF ones but I know what I was on about re the retro fitting of slats that occured on RAF Sabres according to the book by Duncan ?? And some US sources too. Does this mean that even the most revered references are lying to us???

Sabre wings are a nightmare, much depends on the time frame as things changed.

Not sure what you are asking about as to whether you are right or wrong.

For RAF Sabres some had the slatted wing for lfe, some had the hard wing retro fitted and some came from the factory with the hard wing.

As To Duncan Curtis's book not every record for the sabres is right, I have found 2 examples where the wing is different in photos from that quoted, so it always shows if you can get a photo its better. I think its still the best RAF sabre book around.

For Canadair sabres then Larry Milberry's book is a must buy.

We are lucky here as James & Jennings who contributed to this thread have some great knowledge, as does Tony Edmundson who hangs about as well. I also have nearly every sabre book written, so between us we can hopefully get to the bottom of most questions.

Julien

[Paul J]

And I thought I was getting to understand the beast. I gets all confused anyway at the best of times :mental:But, I think I am right about the retro fits though....am I?

But. I do have this original 1953 maintainence manual which reveals all sorts of nitty gritty info:

Its a great big fat manual! I'll be happy to photograph any relevant pages for those who would like details of areas for suoer detailing their models.

But, I think we should not stray too much from the original question regarding kits of the F-86. What comes to mind is the lack of comment on the Hasegawa 1/72nd kit. I know it was a kit of its time, raised detail etc but I felt it was an OK kit. Frog issued it with West German and Australian decals I recall but the fuselage wasn't right for the Avon powerd version for the RAAF option. Unless someone here says the early Aussie ones were US built examples.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Paul J

[Giorgio N]

The Hasegawa kit represented an F-86F-40, so it has a wing that can't be used for any RAF aircraft. As the F-40 version was the one most widely used in Japan, it makes sense that hasegawa choose this.

The fuselage is of course not right for an australian aircraft as these all had the different fuselage required by the different engine and armament

[Paul J]

The Hasegawa kit represented an F-86F-40, so it has a wing that can't be used for any RAF aircraft. As the F-40 version was the one most widely used in Japan, it makes sense that hasegawa choose this.

The fuselage is of course not right for an australian aircraft as these all had the different fuselage required by the different engine and armament

Ah yes. I did know about the wing in this kit and neglected to mention that it wouldn't be right for an RAF one without some work to the wing tips by shortening them. I was just mentioning this kit in general.

I converted one "hundreds of years ago" from a FROG issue to make my RAF one when I was slowly getting used to the hobby.

And my first go at converting.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Paul J

[jaw]

Wow - I seem to have stirred up a real hornet's nest! But I am mot apprecaitive of all the comments and pictures. Going back to the original question I shall use the Academy kit for my slatted Sabre and quietly forget that it has got 6-3 wings as well. After all what is 2mm between friends and I do not have the skills or eyesight to take off 1-2 mm and rebild the catuating rods!

But leads me on to a further question about Sabres. I have seen pics of them on the ground both with athe air brakes stowed and drooping down. Did the airbrakes slowly droop after landing as hydraulic pressure decayed?

Thanks,

John

[Julien]

The Hasegawa kit represented an F-86F-40, so it has a wing that can't be used for any RAF aircraft. As the F-40 version was the one most widely used in Japan, it makes sense that hasegawa choose this.

The fuselage is of course not right for an Australian aircraft as these all had the different fuselage required by the different engine and armament

Are you talking 1/48? If so hasegawa does both an F-86F-40 and an F-86F-30 with the 6-3 Hard wing. The F-86F-30 was boxed as an F.4. Hasegawa also did an F.5 & F.6 boxing in 1/48

Revell re-boxed the F-86F-40 With resin wingtips to do an F.6 as used by the Luftwaffe.

The Hasegawa F-86 in 1.72 is very old and not worth buying unless for a few spares if you can get them real cheap.

Aussie sabres had different fuselages due to the larger engine. Also they had 2 x 30mm ADEN cannon in the nose. If you want an Aussie sabre then in 1/48 you want the High Planes conversion which they also box with I believe the Academy kit. In 1.72 you can use the High Planes (they recommend the academy kit) or Tasman (they recommend the fujimi kit).

But leads me on to a further question about Sabres. I have seen pics of them on the ground both with athe air brakes stowed and drooping down. Did the airbrakes slowly droop after landing as hydraulic pressure decayed?

Thanks,

John

John, the airbrakes were selectable by the pilots so you can do either. In addition the main gear doors can also be closed on the ground.

[Wez]

Julien,

I think Paul J was talking about the ancient 1/72nd scale kit... ...at least I hope so.

John,

It's a bit of a myth that undercarriage doors etc will always droop as hydraulic power dissipates, not always the case as these type of doors will have locks to keep them shut at the crucial moment. THAT SAID (James and Jennings), this might well not be the case with the Sabres, the doors may droop as hyd's dissipate.

Another point to ponder is that it's pretty much a standard part of flight servicings for aircraft is to look for hydraulic leaks especially from actuators and hoses particularly in undercarriage bays and airbrake bays so the Sabre liney's may well have had call to open the airbrakes to look for leaks. Having opened them they would then have to apply hydraulics to close them again - I suspect most wouldn't bother.

A point to watch on Sabre airbrakes is there's a small door on the upper horizontal edge of the lower hinge which covers the lower hinge when the door is closed, take a look at the photo in this link to see what I mean:

http://www.williamma...breAirBrake.jpg

That said, it's a tiny, ickle door that most wouldn't notice.

Wez

Edited October 20, 2012 by Wez

[Adam Maas]

Are you sure as I have old old Heller kits and new heller kits (aka airfix box) and the wings are the same.

Even though the decals in the box are for a German kit, the wings are wrong, also provdies decals for a USAF aircraft and its wrong for that as well.

Julien

The Heller is a Canadair Mk.6, which the Luftwaffe had 225 of. It's wrong for any USAF Sabre though, all USAF Sabres were NAA F-86's or Canadair Mk.4's.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Adam Maas

[AnonymousAA72]

It is of course easy enough to dismiss a mere 2mm & 1mm alteration as being 'super accuate', and in many instances I probably would do so, however the Academy Slatted wing (in the 'Diablo' boxing) has some issues of its own. The slats actuators are like lumps of 2" x 4" and the recess on the wing is too deep. The slat itself is too thick - though easy enough to sand down.

On the real aircraft and the Airfix kit - the extension of the additional 6" at the root meant that a removeable triangular wedge had to be added to allow the crew access panel/ammo,gun-bay cover to be openable. By removing 2mm on the Airfix wing, this should remove all engraved traces on the kit.

I'll see if I can find some pic's of both Academy kit and my Airfix conversion....

Edited October 20, 2012 by Bill Clark

[James Craik]

Julien,

I think Paul J was talking about the ancient 1/72nd scale kit... ...at least I hope so.

John,

It's a bit of a myth that undercarriage doors etc will always droop as hydraulic power dissipates, not always the case as these type of doors will have locks to keep them shut at the crucial moment. THAT SAID (James and Jennings), this might well not be the case with the Sabres, the doors may droop as hyd's dissipate.

Another point to ponder is that it's pretty much a standard part of flight servicings for aircraft is to look for hydraulic leaks especially from actuators and hoses particularly in undercarriage bays and airbrake bays so the Sabre liney's may well have had call to open the airbrakes to look for leaks. Having opened them they would then have to apply hydraulics to close them again - I suspect most wouldn't bother.

A point to watch on Sabre airbrakes is there's a small door on the upper horizontal edge of the lower hinge which covers the lower hinge when the door is closed, take a look at the photo in this link to see what I mean:

http://www.williamma...breAirBrake.jpg

That said, it's a tiny, ickle door that most wouldn't notice.

Wez

The cycle for the gear doors is as follows.On landing when the gear was selected down.doors dropped,gear dropped,doors retracted,and remained retracted until after parking the groundcrew threw a switch in the left wheel well and the doors dropped.They remained down until engine startup when they automaticly retracted for taxing.On takeoff,gear selected up,doors down,gear up,doors up.Nothing as a result of bleedoff.The speed brakes remaind wherever they were selected on shutdown.

[James Craik]

Doesn't the link posted above, the F-86... tripod one, make it clear enough regarding the wings!

I may have got my mark numbers mixed up for the RAF ones but I know what I was on about re the retro fitting of slats that occured on RAF Sabres according to the book by Duncan ?? And some US sources too. Does this mean that even the most revered references are lying to us???

Converting a F-40 wing to a Mk6 wing.

[Scott Hemsley]

"The Turkish sabres were ex R.C.A.F.Mk2s F-86E (M) with the 6/3 non slatted wing.I can't believe when reading through this thread how much false information there is on the Canadair sabre"

James....

Just passing on the urban myth of origins of Heller's kit - not saying it was fact. I did use the word 'supposedly'. I'd sooner go with the the very real possibility that Heller measured up a (ex) Luftwaffe Sabre, regardless of who the current owner was at the time and if it was in fact an ex-Luftwaffe Sabre that was measured up, then it was a Canadair Sabre and that was my point.

When it was first released, it was amazing how many modellers refused to believe that anyone would kit anything but a N.A F-86. I still hear the odd voice of dessention.

Scott

[James Craik]

"The Turkish sabres were ex R.C.A.F.Mk2s F-86E (M) with the 6/3 non slatted wing.I can't believe when reading through this thread how much false information there is on the Canadair sabre"

James....

Just passing on the urban myth of origins of Heller's kit - not saying it was fact. I did use the word 'supposedly'. I'd sooner go with the the very real possibility that Heller measured up a (ex) Luftwaffe Sabre, regardless of who the current owner was at the time and if it was in fact an ex-Luftwaffe Sabre that was measured up, then it was a Canadair Sabre and that was my point.

When it was first released, it was amazing how many modellers refused to believe that anyone would kit anything but a N.A F-86. I still hear the odd voice of dessention.

Scott

Although boxed with German Mk6 decals,the model is a mixed bag.First the wing is the narrow cord Mk1,2.3.& 4. and F-86 A,E and early Fs.Then the fuslage has the side vents of the Canadair sabres ,no sugar scoops of the Mk6 and it has the raised pizza box on top of the fuslage just forward of the vertical stab,ala the 86F

[Wez]

The cycle for the gear doors is as follows.On landing when the gear was selected down.doors dropped,gear dropped,doors retracted,and remained retracted until after parking the groundcrew threw a switch in the left wheel well and the doors dropped.They remained down until engine startup when they automaticly retracted for taxing.On takeoff,gear selected up,doors down,gear up,doors up.Nothing as a result of bleedoff.The speed brakes remaind wherever they were selected on shutdown.

James,

As ever, a treasure trove of Sabre information, thanks for this snippet.

Wez

[Adam Maas]

Although boxed with German Mk6 decals,the model is a mixed bag.First the wing is the narrow cord Mk1,2.3.& 4. and F-86 A,E and early Fs.Then the fuslage has the side vents of the Canadair sabres ,no sugar scoops of the Mk6 and it has the raised pizza box on top of the fuslage just forward of the vertical stab,ala the 86F

Note the sugar scoops were an in-service addition to the Mk.6, they were not present when built.

[Jennings Heilig]

THAT SAID (James and Jennings), this might well not be the case with the Sabres, the doors may droop as hyd's dissipate.

If Sabre speed brakes bleed down after the hydraulic pump is unpowered, how come you *never* see pics taken with them half way open? They're open or closed.

[James Craik]

Note the sugar scoops were an in-service addition to the Mk.6, they were not present when built.

Not so the German ones,they started coming from Canadair with scoops on see the attached photo in the Canadair plant,note that the German Mk6 has the scoops as well as the rest.

[Jennings Heilig]

Also notice in that pic that the slats can be pushed closed (NOT "pinned" as many modelers seem to think - that would be near suicide for a pilot), and will stay that way until disturbed (as in by taxiing the airplane). But they also hang open by gravity unless pushed closed.

[Dave Fleming]

There are odd pics that show RAF Sabres with slats or airbrakes pushed closed.

[Scott Hemsley]

"Although boxed with German Mk6 decals,the model is a mixed bag.First the wing is the narrow cord Mk1,2.3.& 4. and F-86 A,E and early Fs.Then the fuslage has the side vents of the Canadair sabres ,no sugar scoops of the Mk6 and it has the raised pizza box on top of the fuslage just forward of the vertical stab,ala the 86F"

James....

I agree about the 'pizza box' (easily removed) & the lack of 'sugar scoops' (easily scratched in 72nd), but how do you figure that the wing is the narrow cord wing? Do you have the definitive wing root measurements for the narrow-cord wing vs the 6-3 wing? I've been unsucessful in finding those specific figures, anywhere.

However, armed with a SAM Scale Ruler and a Sabre 6 planview (courtesy the 1/48 scale drawings by Ralph Clint, that are in the back of Larry Milberry's book "The Canadair Sabre"), the wing root comes out to 10' 3" as measured from the fwd tip of the leading edge at the wing root, to the trailing edge of the flap along the wing root. The Heller kit, measuring the between the exact same two points on the one-piece underwing half, is also 10' 3".

'Scoobie-Do Productions' did a narrow-cord resin wing with separate slats (unfortunately OOP - I could use another one for my Sabre 4) and measuring between the exact same points as above, it comes out to 9' 3". That's in the ballpark of the 1/48 Sabre 2 drawings that accompany R. Clint's Sabre 6 drawings.

Argueably, the tip of the fwd wing root also lies on the edge of the ammo door (ala Sabre 5/6) - but any confusion about that is more from Heller's tooling than a difference of Sabre marks. If indeed Heller did do the narrow cord wings as you maintain, they also messed up on a couple of details, On the Sabre 2, the wingtip nav lights were integral with the wingtip, much like on a Mosquito or clipped-wing Spitfire. On the Sabre 6, they were the teardrop style, standing proud of the wingtip - like Heller has depicted.

Scott

[Wez]

If Sabre speed brakes bleed down after the hydraulic pump is unpowered, how come you *never* see pics taken with them half way open? They're open or closed.

Jennings, if you read my post properly, you'll see there's an element of doubt in my statement, all I was saying was that people shouldn't assume that gear doors/airbrakes automatically drop as hydraulic pressure dissipates on any aircraft, whilst this may happen on some types it applies to that type only and people shouldn't assume this is the case for all aircraft!

Most aircraft have effective locks which hold such doors in place regardless of the amount of hydraulic pressure within the system, therefore the position of any door would be in response to an aircraft specific system or maintenance activity. My post was merely an attempt to provide a general explanation for this feature, it was to make the OP and others aware of this and I too was asking for clarification on the specifics of the Sabre, which James was kind enough to provide.

So from James and yourself we now know if you see the doors open on a Sabre that would be in response to a specific activity and they would be in one position or the other, not somewhere in-between. Thank you.

Wez

Edited October 21, 2012 by Wez

[James Craik]

"Although boxed with German Mk6 decals,the model is a mixed bag.First the wing is the narrow cord Mk1,2.3.& 4. and F-86 A,E and early Fs.Then the fuslage has the side vents of the Canadair sabres ,no sugar scoops of the Mk6 and it has the raised pizza box on top of the fuslage just forward of the vertical stab,ala the 86F"

James....

I agree about the 'pizza box' (easily removed) & the lack of 'sugar scoops' (easily scratched in 72nd), but how do you figure that the wing is the narrow cord wing? Do you have the definitive wing root measurements for the narrow-cord wing vs the 6-3 wing? I've been unsucessful in finding those specific figures, anywhere.

However, armed with a SAM Scale Ruler and a Sabre 6 planview (courtesy the 1/48 scale drawings by Ralph Clint, that are in the back of Larry Milberry's book "The Canadair Sabre"), the wing root comes out to 10' 3" as measured from the fwd tip of the leading edge at the wing root, to the trailing edge of the flap along the wing root. The Heller kit, measuring the between the exact same two points on the one-piece underwing half, is also 10' 3".

'Scoobie-Do Productions' did a narrow-cord resin wing with separate slats (unfortunately OOP - I could use another one for my Sabre 4) and measuring between the exact same points as above, it comes out to 9' 3". That's in the ballpark of the 1/48 Sabre 2 drawings that accompany R. Clint's Sabre 6 drawings.

Argueably, the tip of the fwd wing root also lies on the edge of the ammo door (ala Sabre 5/6) - but any confusion about that is more from Heller's tooling than a difference of Sabre marks. If indeed Heller did do the narrow cord wings as you maintain, they also messed up on a couple of details, On the Sabre 2, the wingtip nav lights were integral with the wingtip, much like on a Mosquito or clipped-wing Spitfire. On the Sabre 6, they were the teardrop style, standing proud of the wingtip - like Heller has depicted.

Scott

I lined up the Heller wing with the Fujimi,Academy,Hobbycraft and Hasegawa,and the Heller wing came up 2-3 mm narrower than the others,which were all the same also by my mesurments the Heller wing is 2 mm narrower than the Milberry drawing.Therefore, you are telling me that Heller got it right and the other 4 got it wrong.I compared the Milberry drawing to the 1/48 Hasegawa and Academy and Milberry came up 2 mm narrower than the 2 manufactures.that points to the Heller wing as being to narrow in cord for a 6/3 wing.

[Jennings Heilig]

Jennings, if you read my post properly, you'll see there's an element of doubt in my statement, all I was saying was that people shouldn't assume that gear doors/airbrakes automatically drop as hydraulic pressure dissipates on any aircraft, whilst this may happen on some types it applies to that type only and people shouldn't assume this is the case for all aircraft!

I was agreeing with you...

[Wez]

I was agreeing with you...

Is it that two nations divided by a common language thing again? Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Wez

Edited October 21, 2012 by Wez