Odd questions about USAF from 50s (Sabre F-86)

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

Well after a brief reading some F-86 books I notice that even after the success from its use by Taiwan AF F-86 armed with AIM-9B in the middle of the 50's the USAF never armed their own aircraft with this missile other than few years lated with the F-4C in Vietnam

For instance some NATO allies used Sidewinder in F-86E/F and F-86D/K but F-102/F-106 used for longest AIM-4 Falcon (anyway they got lucky and sold loads to the Swesdish, also there is no writen report in web available) but for other part US NAVY used in FJ-4 Fury, F3H Demon, F4H Skyray, F-8 Crusader and F11F Tiger (I also know that the sidewinder was a project founded by the USN but whats the point not using a viable weapon)

Also other F-86 users as Pakistan and Japan used them armed with Sidewinders, other patforms are Supermarine Scimitar, Saab Tunnan / Draken / Viggen, AMD Mirage III/5, Hawker Hunter.....

Anyway I still have one F-86H and plan to put some Sidewinders on it

Best modelling

Armando

Edited October 9, 2012 by RAGATIGER

[Jennings Heilig]

The Sidewinder became operational (first with the ROCAF) in 1958. By that time the few remaining USAF F-86Fs were relegated to ground attack duties. The AIM-9 was an interceptor weapon, so the USAF's Sabres never needed it. The USAF's dedicated interceptor fleet had the "big guns" such as the AIM-4 and the Genie, which had a nuke warhead. The Sidewinder's measly little warhead could hardly match up And don't forget, the AIM-9 was a Navy weapon. There was (and is) a strong "not invented here" mentality in the US military. If we didn't invent it, it must be no good. The USAF didn't start using the Sidewinder until the F-4C came along, long after Sabres were history.

[RAGATIGER]

1000 thanks Jennings

So it was something related both to time and pride......... Any way I always wonder why the USAF took to long to improve it´s own version of the Sidewinder, it was a good weapon but also comparing with the AIM-4 Falcon more simplier to install (so less systems weight)

So if I understand you well the sidewinder had practically no change since from 1958 to 1968 when Col Robin Old order to get rid of the Falcons in 8 TFW

So now another questions the RAF bought F-86 Sabre Mk6 because the lack of suitable and/or availability of Hawker Hunter, but this plane was used only for ground attack or also used Sidewinder AIM-9B for local interception (the RNederlands AF did for their aircrafts

Best modeling

Armando

[Giorgio N]

So now another questions the RAF bought F-86 Sabre Mk6 because the lack of suitable and/or availability of Hawker Hunter, but this plane was used only for ground attack or also used Sidewinder AIM-9B for local interception (the RNederlands AF did for their aircrafts

Best modeling

Armando

The RAF did not use the Mk.6 version but only the Mk.4

I'm not sure if your question is about the Hunter or the Sabre, anyway the Sabre was a stop-gap and was retired when the Hunter arrived. The Hunter was initially tasked with air defence and air superiority duties, it was only later used for ground attack. RAF Hunters did not use the Sidewinder while in RAF service. I might be wrong, but I think the sidewinder did not enter RAF service until the Phantoms arrived at the end of the '60s (corrections are welcome if I'm wrong here)

[Don H.]

Remembering... never easy. However, I seem to remember that he F-104A and C used the AIM 9, as did the F-100C and D. The latter made news when one of them accidentaly shot a B-52 in a training exercise in the States. Jennings is quite correct regarding the warhead difference between the AIM 9 and the AIM 4. Regarding the Geenie... Jack Broughton in one of his books states unequivocaly that the Genie was a very innefective weapon, frequently going off course and/or straight down.

[Giorgio N]

Don is right, the F-104 used the Sidewinder from the start. Actually for a while the Sidewinder was the only weapon available to the Starfighter fleet as the M61 gun initially suffered from several issues and most F-104As spent all their career without the gun. The Starfighter was therefore the first USAF aircraft to carry the Sidewinder (initially known as GAR-8 in the old USAF designation system)

[pigsty]

The first true USAF Sidewinder was the AIM-9E, which resembled an AIM-9B but had a longer forebody and larger canard foreplanes. Until it was developed the F-86 (overseas), F-104 and F-4 had to use the AIM-9B or the AIM-4. The F-86 could have used the AIM-9E but was withdrawn by the USAF before that became necessary, and I'm not sure they ever bothered to fit it to the F-104C before that was dumped on the National Guard and then withdrawn.

The full range is:

US Navy

AIM-9B, -9C*, -9D, -9G, -9H, -9R (devised by the Navy but abandoned in favour of the AIM-9X)

US Air Force

AIM-9E, -9J, -9N, -9P (these last two were upgrades of old AIM-9J stock, rather than the USAF stubbornly pressing on after a common standard was developed)

Common

AIM-9L, -9M, -9X

* the AIM-9C was an odd fish because it was radar-homing and led to the AGM-122 Sidearm, which could theoretically be carried by combat helicopters, making it an Army weapon. But that was still essentially a Navy project and the few that were converted were mainly used by the Marines.

[Giorgio N]

Was the AIM-9E ever a new build missile ? Or were they all rebuilt Bs ? Some 5,000 AIM-9B are indicated in various sources as having been converted to the E standard, with another few thousandth converted to the J standard. This means that there were large stocks of AIM-9B in USAF inventory, making it quite an important version for them even if it was not developed specifically for the Air Force. It was also the only version in USAF use for more than 10 years, being introduced in 1956.

[Paul J]

Never seen or know of sidewinders on RAF Phantoms???

[pigsty]

Was the AIM-9E ever a new build missile ?

I believe not. In fact it's possible that every AIM-9E, -9J, -9N and -9P was originally an AIM-9B airframe.

I missed out the AIM-9F, which was essentially an AIM-9E built by a European consortium - again, converted from the huge wodge of AIM-9Bs that were sold everywhere.

Never seen or know of sidewinders on RAF Phantoms???

Really? They used the AIM-9G until the early 1980s and then switched to the AIM-9L. For confirmation, you should be able to spot one fairly quickly in a Google image search. Edited October 11, 2012 by pigsty

[Julien]

Regarding the Geenie... Jack Broughton in one of his books states unequivocaly that the Genie was a very innefective weapon, frequently going off course and/or straight down.

It should also be remembered it was NOT a guided missile but a rocket, once the burn ended detonation was on a time delay.

[RAGATIGER]

OK but then some more questions arrise

If we just follow what the plastic manufatures did in the past we can have a lots of troubles with accuraccy on our plastic models so

In Monogram Phantoms in both mayor scales 1/72 & 1/48 (same kits only size difference) for USAF actually F-4D (late) and F-4J (early) types both are with AIM-9B Sidewinders is that correct I always wonder what was correct for a USAF/USN before bomb halt in 1968 and what was correct in Linebaker 1972 (lets say I want to model Olds 8TFW , Steve Ritchie and Cunnignams Phantoms as acuratelly as possible) ????

For other part other mayor Phantom user was IDF AF and at start in 1969 they started with Sidewinder AIM-9B as part of the weapons load (only a portion of their Mirage III fleet used the Sidewinder the other part used Shafir II starting to entering in service as trial weapon only to be mature at October 73 Yom Kippur war) only later they recieved Sidewinder AIM-9D (an improved USN version in a totally AF Phantom type)

All comentw welcome

Armando

Edited October 12, 2012 by RAGATIGER

[pigsty]

The AIM-9E was introduced in 1967 so it could be mounted on a USAF Phantom around 1968. The AIM-9J just about made it to Vietnam in time for the Linebacker campaign. Equally, the AIM-9D was developed for use in Vietnam from 1965, and the externally identical AIM-9G and AIM-9H were used there too. But the best way to get an accurate depiciton of those particular aircraft is to rely on research, not the kits. Kits quite often include what's convenient to the manufacturer, especailly for stuff like weapons that comes on separate sprues and can be included in any number of kits, no matter how wrong it is.

Overseas buyers would have used what they preferred, so long as they were approved to receive it. Any Sidewinder is usable on just about any suitable airframe with few changes to either, so a Navy missile on an Air Force-type aircraft is quite feasible. I don't know exactly what Israel ordered but AIM-9D on F-4E isn't completely impossible. (However, it's more likely to be AIM-9G or -9H, as the -9D wasn't made in large numbers. The most popular was the -9H.)

[Niall]

The SideARM was not based on the AIM9C, not did it have anything to do with the US Army.

It was made, for the US Navy/Marine Corps, by taking the seeker and fuse from the Shrike and mating it with old AIM9D or D airframes. The Shrike's rocket motors were mated with 1000 and 2000 pound laser guided bombs as the Skipper 1 and 2.

[pigsty]

<p>

The SideARM was not based on the AIM9C, not did it have anything to do with the US Army.

It was made, for the US Navy/Marine Corps, by taking the seeker and fuse from the Shrike and mating it with old AIM9D or D airframes.

That's news to me. Every reference I've ever read says it was a rebuild of the AIM-9C. That's what it says here, in particular, and if anyone knows it will be China Lake.

[Giorgio N]

The SideARM was not based on the AIM9C, not did it have anything to do with the US Army.

It was made, for the US Navy/Marine Corps, by taking the seeker and fuse from the Shrike and mating it with old AIM9D or D airframes. The Shrike's rocket motors were mated with 1000 and 2000 pound laser guided bombs as the Skipper 1 and 2.

Are you sure it used parts from the Shrike ? My understanding was that it used a dedicated seeker and the fuze was from the AIM-9L. I also wonder how parts designed for an 8"tube like the Shrike could fit the 3"tube of the sidewinder ?

[Niall]

The info I got was from Janes Defence Weekly when it entered service. I must have mis-remebered which version of AIM9 it was.

However it definately had the seeker from the Shrike. The AIM9 is 5" in diameter not 3".

[RAGATIGER]

So then fellows ARC

In NATO/Europe air arms who used the Sidewinder and what models, according my memory as follow:

F-86F, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Nederland, Germany Turkey, Greece Yugoslavia AIM9 B

F-84F France, Italy, Belgium Germany Norway Greece, Turkey (no AIM)

F-86D/K/L France, Italy, Danemark, Norway Germany Yugoslavia AIM9 B

NA Supre Sabre F-100D/F France, Danemark, Turkey AIM9 B

Lockheed F-104G Spain, Belgium, Nederland Italy Germany Norwey AIM9 B

NA Freedom Fighter F-5A/B Spain, Nederlands, Greece Turkey AIM9B F-5E/F Swiss AIM9 P

BAe Hawker Hunter Nederlands, Sweden, Swiss AIM9 B

AMD Mirage IIIC/E France, Swiss, Belgium AIM9 B

AMD Mirage F-1 Spain and Greece AIM9 E/P France Matra Magic II

Saab JAS 35 Draken Danemark, Sweden and Finland AIM9 B

Not sure If I forgot someone so please correct these

Best day

Armando

Edited October 12, 2012 by RAGATIGER

[Dave A]

Guys, guys, they're pointy and they go bang, what else matters?

[Giorgio N]

Armando, every NATO country used the Sidewinder and the missile was built in Europe under license in large numbers (around 15,000).

Your list includes some, but there have been many more. And some types you mentioned carried more than one version during their careers, so depending on the user and the timeframe you might need a different version on models of the same aircraft.

The F-104 first used the B, but then some countries introduced the G, some the J/P and the modernised italian S carried the L.

The same happened with the F-5, with at least the B and the P being used by various users, and for the various Mirages.

There are then some types that you have forgotten, for example the Phantom used in Germany, Turkey and Greece and that carried for sure the G, P and L versions. Tornadoes also used the missile for self defence (the L version mainly). The most important type is however the F-16, still in service with plenty of european air forces.

Not a NATO used type, but the Viggens carried sidewinders too (J and L). IIRC the Lansen was another type.

On the other hand, I'm not sure any F-84F ever carried a Sidewinder in any european air force, for sure the Italian ones didn't.

And I don't think Jugoslavia ever used this missile.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Giorgio N

[Giorgio N]

The info I got was from Janes Defence Weekly when it entered service. I must have mis-remebered which version of AIM9 it was.

However it definately had the seeker from the Shrike. The AIM9 is 5" in diameter not 3".

My mistake on the winder diameter, for some reason I kept thinking 5 and wrote 3...

I'm still not convinced about the use of parts from the Shrike, I checked a few old magazines of those days and they all mention a modiication of the original C seeker made by Motorola. But I guess unless some official documents come out it's press articles against press articles

[Julien]

The SideARM was not based on the AIM9C, not did it have anything to do with the US Army.

It was made, for the US Navy/Marine Corps, by taking the seeker and fuse from the Shrike and mating it with old AIM9D or D airframes. The Shrike's rocket motors were mated with 1000 and 2000 pound laser guided bombs as the Skipper 1 and 2.

I am sorry but you are wrong, The AGM-122 was made for the USMC by re-manufacturing stored Aim-9C's. The C's were a semi-active radard headed wersion developed to give the F-8 an all weather missile. They were hardly used and placed in storage. In the late 1980s they were converted to Sidearms.

The weapon used the original semiactive seaker which was modified by motorola to accept a greater bandwidth for different radars. In fact the only thing actually changed in the missile was the fuse, the seeker, warhead and rocket motor were all as were.

A Shrike seaker was not used, and as such the AGM-122 was not comparable with other Anti radiation missiles and was easily decoyed.The weapon was designed to equip Harriers, Skyhawks and helos, in reality the Supercobra. Its main use to defuse the ZSU-23 threat on the battlefield.

The system was also cleared for US Army Apache helicopters.

With you reference to the mating of the shrike head to a missile, I think you are getting confused as the shrike was actually made by fitting the seeker head to an AIM-7 rocket body.

Julien

[maurice]

Amando: slight update: the Dutch Air Force operated the F86K, not the F86F version

And:

The Dutch MLD ( naval Air Service) put Sidewinders on the Seahawk, probably the only service that did it on the Seahawks

greetings

Maurice

[Adam Maas]

The USAF had an interesting history with the AIM-9, they never really wanted it due to NIH and the desire to stick to the Falcon family, using it only with Aircraft incapable of carrying the AIM-4, which is why it was seen on the F-104 and the F-100's, neither of which were designed to carry guided missiles (the F-104 got the capability prior to service entry but after the basic avionics fit was settled). The USAF's desire to stick with the AIM-4 actually made more than a little sense as the AIM-4 was also available as a SARH version and allowed the USAF to use a mostly-common missile in both roles, rather than the USN's approach of the AIM-9 and AIM-7.

Remember the F-4C was intended as an interim type for use prior to the definitive F-4D entering service with IR AIM-4 capability (and no AIM-9 capability), AIM-7 capability remained for the simple reason that major design changes would be necessary to adapt the dedicated AIM-7 launchers to the very different AIM-4 family. It was only the experience in Vietnam which indicated that the IR AIM-4 was unsuitable for regular combat use due to the long seeker cooldown times, problems with cooled seekers expiring and complex switchology as well as simple failure to launch.

Actual kill ratios for the AIM-4 and AIM-9 were similar in terms of launch vs kill (neither were particularly good compared to modern missiles, the AIM-9 was a little better because it was harder to launch one with an expired seeker and it was more manoueverable), it was the issues with unlaunchable AIM-4's that forced the USAF brass to switch over to the AIM-9 for non-interceptors, the AIM-4 being a perfectly good anti-bomber weapon as the interception mission rarely resulted in the issues that were encountered in Vietnam. Read Col. Olds description of the problems and it's pretty clear that the major issues with the IR AIM-4's were time to launch and missiles expiring on the rails rather than the kill ratio of missiles actually launched with lock (not that it was great with that, but it wasn't all that much worse than AIM-9 for after launch success)

Edited October 13, 2012 by Adam Maas

[Adam Maas]

OK but then some more questions arrise

If we just follow what the plastic manufatures did in the past we can have a lots of troubles with accuraccy on our plastic models so

In Monogram Phantoms in both mayor scales 1/72 & 1/48 (same kits only size difference) for USAF actually F-4D (late) and F-4J (early) types both are with AIM-9B Sidewinders is that correct I always wonder what was correct for a USAF/USN before bomb halt in 1968 and what was correct in Linebaker 1972 (lets say I want to model Olds 8TFW , Steve Ritchie and Cunnignams Phantoms as acuratelly as possible) ????

For other part other mayor Phantom user was IDF AF and at start in 1969 they started with Sidewinder AIM-9B as part of the weapons load (only a portion of their Mirage III fleet used the Sidewinder the other part used Shafir II starting to entering in service as trial weapon only to be mature at October 73 Yom Kippur war) only later they recieved Sidewinder AIM-9D (an improved USN version in a totally AF Phantom type)

All comentw welcome

Armando

The Monogram F-4's can be built OOB as F-4C's or post-68 F-4D's, it always was a C/D kit. It does represent a later example for an OOB build, so AIM-9 is correct for it. You'd need to find 4 AIM-4D's to build it as an earlier F-4D, along with minor tweaks necessary to reflect the earlier airframe configuration (tweaks necessary and some nose surgery for an definitive D, C and D radomes were interchangeable so the presence of the IRST housing isn't a definitive differentiator). I know they come now with 8 sidewinders (the original 4 and a new sprue with 4 better ones).

The Monogram F-4J is the F-4C/D kit with Navy pylons and a different set of weapons (no gunpod, but it has the centreline tank and gets TER's with MK82's). It's not a true F-4J, the biggest issues are the rear cockpit (which differed significantly between the C/D and J) and the stabilizers, which had reinforcement plates lacking on the J but present on C/D's.