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Spit - Rivets 'n Things 1:48


Sean_M

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spit-rivets.jpg

I ordered a Trumpeter riveter and a Tamiya II Scriber. However the question is how much (if any) riveting should one add to a 1:48 Spit and if so, when and where. Lastly if one is going to add rivets is there any good source drawings available? I have looked at some reference photos the further away one gets of course the rivets become invisible, but the Spit was full of them as it was a stressed skin riveted over a frame. Well I hope that I have now opened an interesting topic, perhaps even a can of worms - when is detail, too much detail? :mental:

Edited by Sean_M
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Asking for opinions on riviets is like asking for opinions on Marmite. You'll get wildly differing views which are, in the end, entirely subjective. The best advice would be to do what you personally want to do, to get the result you want to achieve.

tfn,

Jason

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To be honest, and this is just my personal opinion, but adding rivets in 1/48 scale is not necessary for the scale, especially with the engineering of most modern kits.

This is your first build isn't it Sean? In which case I'd say just concentrate on getting the basics as good as you can. Modelling has a progressive learning curve, like most things you'll get better the more you do. The main things to concentrate on are assembly - seams, filling, sanding - painting, decals and weathering. When I returned to the hobby in 2001 I saw so many wonderful builds on the internet and tried to do too much and ended up frustrating myself.

Focus on the basics and grow from there.

Edited by Smithy
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To be honest, and this is just my personal opinion, but adding rivets in 1/48 scale is not necessary for the scale, especially with the engineering of most modern kits.

This is your first build isn't it Sean? In which case I'd say just concentrate on getting the basics as good as you can. Modelling has a progressive learning curve, like most things you'll get better the more you do. The main things to concentrate on are assembly - seams, filling, sanding - painting, decals and weathering. When I returned to the hobby in 2001 I saw so many wonderful builds on the internet and tried to do too much and ended up frustrating myself.

Focus on the basics and grow from there.

Quite correct. It is my first build. The seems and construction I have sorted. I need to re-do some panel lines. I just happened to buy a riveter when I ordered my scriber as I figured - save on the postage and it's there if you need it.

I know that this is off topic, but I ordered a Tamiya II Scriber. I believe that the Olfa P450 blades will fit when I need replacements

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Domed rivets, on the Spitfire, only existed on the fuselage of early Marks (up to the Vb & VI,) and only from the cockpit aft. All-flush rivetting became standard, from the Vc onwards, from June 1943 (according to Supermarine, the RAF make it earlier, in January.)

On the early wings and tailplanes, top skins were flush rivetted, while underside skins were held in place by countersunk screws, screwed into wood strips attached to the wing ribs. Eventually became flush rivets, and the holes were drilled, not punched, then reamed out and slightly countersunk, before rivetting (so no dished surfaces.)

Rivets were normally 3/32" or 1/8" diameter, which, if you assume that they would have doubled in width when hit by the rivetter, makes them 3/16" & 1/4", which when taken down to 1/48 scale = .0039" & .0053" or .099mm & .132mm; all this is plus a (guesstimated) height of 1/8", or .0025"/ .066mm in 1/48 scale.

Also, the vast majority of Spitfire panels were laid over each other, at the edges, which, even in 1/24 scale, means a difference in height of (roughly) the thickness of tissue paper, which is why panel lines are so difficult to see in so many photographs.

Edgar

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TBH Sean, indented rivets are unrealistic, most aircraft including the Spitfire are flush riveted or have domed rivets, you wouldn't see an indented surface, indeed, if it was indented it would be filled to present a smooth surface.

The indented fasteners on the wing root in your picture are countersunk screws, these are slightly indented for a different reason and have a lot to do with variability in fit.

Personally, I wouldn't bother adding rivets to a fit and would fill them in on a kit that came with them.

Wez

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Hi Sean

Before you attack your pride & joy with your new toy, may I suggest you have a play with it on an old kit, spare parts left over from the build or some scrap plastic first?

Scribe some lines varying the pressure and no of passes, and add some lines of rivets, again varying the pressure, with your new tools, then prime and paint over the top as you plan to do with the model. Examine the results critically to see if any of them match your expectations of the look you're hoping to achieve on the model.

As Edgar notes above the finish could be different on different parts of the airframe, so you may want to use 2 or more effects.

If you don't achieve the results you want on the first go then repeat until you can achieve them, or put it aside for another time.

Some spectacular results can be achieved with these tools, in both good and bad ways! The object is subtlety, not the Clydeside monstrocities that came as standard on some 1970's kits!

Bottom line, if you can achieve the effect you're looking for and want on your model, go for it. If you can't get the results you want on a test piece, you aren't going to get them on the model, so best left alone. Even if you don't achieve the result you want, it's not wasted effort, some day you'll find a use for the the technique and results you can achieve.

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I'm with Smithy on this one. Work on the basics first. If you get too bogged down in details you probably won't feel like finishing the kit. Make sure your parts are aligned correctly and seams taken care of, then work on your painting process. Maybe try something new on each successive model. I don't know how many years I built before I ever learned (then bothered with) about filling seams. Take you time and don't expect everything to be perfect and to look like some of the beautiful kits we see built here and at other online sites.

The two most important things in building models are practice and enjoyment of the hobby. If a particular kit gets to be a chore, put it asides for awhile and work on something else. These are all just MHOs of course, your mileage may vary… :banghead:

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Rivets were normally 3/32" or 1/8" diameter, which, if you assume that they would have doubled in width when hit by the rivetter, makes them 3/16" & 1/4", which when taken down to 1/48 scale = .0039" & .0053" or .099mm & .132mm; all this is plus a (guesstimated) height of 1/8", or .0025"/ .066mm in 1/48 scale.

If you'll pardon the technical correction, rivet heads don't swell (significantly) when driven- the tails do. But rivet diameter does refer to the shaft, so you're still right that the visible head would be bigger, though (guessing) probably not twice the diam. None of which really affects your point.

bob

p.s. Hmm, maybe I'll try laying tissue on to the lapping sheets of skin... eh, no!

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Chaps, you may like to see this text from a RAE Farnborough report about the build quality of Spitfires built by Westlands.

5.2. Wing surfaces

5.21. Leading edge Condition: The leading edge 'crack' has been very carefully filled and rubbed down, but slight ridges can be detected along certain sections of the span on the port wing. The leading edge is somewhat flattened where the curvature should be greatest.

5.22. Filling of rivet holes: The slight depressions formed by the countersunk rivets have been well filled.

5.23. Paintwork; This aircraft has desert camouflage on the upper surfaces and sky blue under surfaces. The quality of the paintwork is of an exceptionally high standard for a production Spitfire. The paint has been very carefully applied. The rubbing down has been done thoroughly and there are no roughness’s or ridges, even at the edges of the identification roundels. The smooth finish on EF731 is considered to be up to the standard of EF946.

5.24. Panels; The fitting of the panels on the wing surfaces is very good. All panels lie flush with the wing surfaces and the gaps at the joints are very small.

5.3. Fuselage: The riveting on the fuselage is fairly good. The inspection doors fit fairly well but the one on the starboard side projects slightly above the fuselage surface. The paintwork is of the same high standard as on the wing surfaces.

5.4. Tail plane: The filling of the joints with the D-shaped nose on both the upper and lower surfaces has been very well done and the position of these joints is difficult to detect. The fitting of the rivet holes and paintwork are of the same high' standard as achieved on the other parts of the aircraft.

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Hi Sean

Before you attack your pride & joy with your new toy, may I suggest you have a play with it on an old kit, spare parts left over from the build or some scrap plastic first?

Scribe some lines varying the pressure and no of passes, and add some lines of rivets, again varying the pressure, with your new tools, then prime and paint over the top as you plan to do with the model. Examine the results critically to see if any of them match your expectations of the look you're hoping to achieve on the model.

As Edgar notes above the finish could be different on different parts of the airframe, so you may want to use 2 or more effects.

If you don't achieve the results you want on the first go then repeat until you can achieve them, or put it aside for another time.

Some spectacular results can be achieved with these tools, in both good and bad ways! The object is subtlety, not the Clydeside monstrocities that came as standard on some 1970's kits!

Bottom line, if you can achieve the effect you're looking for and want on your model, go for it. If you can't get the results you want on a test piece, you aren't going to get them on the model, so best left alone. Even if you don't achieve the result you want, it's not wasted effort, some day you'll find a use for the the technique and results you can achieve.

Chaps, you may like to see this text from a RAE Farnborough report about the build quality of Spitfires built by Westlands.

5.2. Wing surfaces

5.21. Leading edge Condition: The leading edge 'crack' has been very carefully filled and rubbed down, but slight ridges can be detected along certain sections of the span on the port wing. The leading edge is somewhat flattened where the curvature should be greatest.

5.22. Filling of rivet holes: The slight depressions formed by the countersunk rivets have been well filled.

5.23. Paintwork; This aircraft has desert camouflage on the upper surfaces and sky blue under surfaces. The quality of the paintwork is of an exceptionally high standard for a production Spitfire. The paint has been very carefully applied. The rubbing down has been done thoroughly and there are no roughness’s or ridges, even at the edges of the identification roundels. The smooth finish on EF731 is considered to be up to the standard of EF946.

5.24. Panels; The fitting of the panels on the wing surfaces is very good. All panels lie flush with the wing surfaces and the gaps at the joints are very small.

5.3. Fuselage: The riveting on the fuselage is fairly good. The inspection doors fit fairly well but the one on the starboard side projects slightly above the fuselage surface. The paintwork is of the same high standard as on the wing surfaces.

5.4. Tail plane: The filling of the joints with the D-shaped nose on both the upper and lower surfaces has been very well done and the position of these joints is difficult to detect. The fitting of the rivet holes and paintwork are of the same high' standard as achieved on the other parts of the aircraft.

I do wish some of these 'erberts that continue to do thick black panel lines on Spits/Seas would read this.

Leave the rivetter in it's box Sean,especially for Spits/Seas.

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Chaps again I am grateful for the comments and knowlege. I bought it on the spur of the moment. I suspected that the rivets were somehow smoothed over. Again I have learned from my fellow modellers. Many Thanks to AeroNut for the info. Nice one on the panel lines

Edited by Sean_M
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Chaps, you may like to see this text from a RAE Farnborough report...

On the other hand I could show you comments complaining about the standard of finish (and maintenance) of other Spitfires. Which may, in part, have led to the nice finish described above. Now, when you scale it down to 48th does it make a difference? Personally I think less is usually more, when it comes to riveting, panel line "eye shadow", weathering...

bob

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On the other hand I could show you comments complaining about the standard of finish (and maintenance) of other Spitfires. 

Agreed, there is another RAE report about Westland built Spitfires that is far from complimentary. RAE took a rather superior position on German paint finishes as well.

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