Mark Mackenzie Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Nick: I am not intimidating you, merely pointing out documented sources as I find them and the reference by Bruce was one of these. Bruce was in direct consultation with a dozen or so RAF officers shortly after the war, among others. It is unlikely that they would not have been familiar with the term Tropical Land Scheme, or that no one would have pointed out this mistake if it was a mistake. Who said anything about intimidating? But you are ignoring the points I'm making - you have just done it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 intimidating Pardon my schoolmasterish pedantry about the English language but there is a world of difference intimation - a hint or suggestion intimidation - the act of bullying a weaker person to make them do something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Just to remove any doubt - I wrote intimation and meant intimation in my post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Ok, in a deliberate attempt to derail this conversation ('cos we've been around the buoy before !), did anyone else notice that at least one of the Gladiators had a roundel under the port wing--Type A1 'cos the aircraft had black/white or black/sky (being non-specific here!) undersides--but no roundel under the starboard wing. That struck me as odd. Indeed, I struggled to find any footage of the Gladiators showing roundels under the starboard wing. Was this marking pattern unique to SAAF or the theatre? I certainly hadn't noticed it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) It reminds me a litte of the Spits and Hurris from the Munich-crisis period where some had a single B roundel on the upper wing, some on the lower. I don't have my Gladiator pile to hand, but I'm wondering if a few of them may have been marked similarly and this was either a carry over from that, or a specific AMO requirement. As we're all clarifying things today, that's just speculation of course. Edited September 5, 2012 by Jonathan Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) On 9/5/2012 at 8:03 PM, Nick Millman said: Just to remove any doubt - I wrote intimation and meant intimation in my post! n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I never insisted that there wasn't a scheme called “Tropical Land Scheme” because I posted a drawing with this name on the drawing with these words. What I did insist and still insist is that there was never a scheme published in any correct order or instruction yet found that I have seen of Dark Green and Midstone = Tropical Land Scheme. Throughout the web your name and Grahams name appears in relation to this, dating back to at least 2005, based on a single reference by Ian Huntley and photographic interpretation alone. This is what I meant when I said that you and Graham invented this scheme. You have tried to imply (and still do) that the name came from AMO513/41, when this order was published in error. The qualification "correct order or instruction" is new. Your previous posts:- 18 July 2012 - 08:52 PM:- "There never was a Dark Green/Mid-Stone scheme officially stated. The only reference I have yet seen is that from Ian Huntley in his 1980s article." 20 July 2012 - 05:55 AM:- "Re Tropical Land.” This is a name you (Graham Boak) have invented to describe Mid-Stone/Dark Green. It does not appear anywhere directly stating this in any archive documents. As we have been over many times before AMO A.513 does officially state this scheme and it does appear there, whether or not it did so in error:- "3 (ii) Operational aircraft for service abroad. - (a) The upper surfaces are to be camouflaged in accordance with the instructions contained in sub-para. (i) (a) above (e.g. Temperate land scheme), or dark green and mid-stone, according to the nature of the country in which they are to operate." "Appendix 1 Operational aircraft for service abroad Tropical land scheme" Therefore neither the term nor its association with the colour scheme combination of Dark Green and Midstone is an invention of Graham Boak or I, even without considering the Ian Huntley context. As to the points:- 1) I did not dismiss Bruce Robertson's book as ambiguous but only the passage you quoted and for the reasons already stated. 2) You have not proved that some aircraft were not re-painted in Dark Green and Midstone in error or to suit "the nature of the country in which they are to operate". 3) Dealt with by citing your previous postings above. The order cannot be considered not to have existed just because part of it was in error! This time your accusation of "invention" published against a named individual in a public forum refers to me and I should be grateful if you would retract it. Both AMO A.513 and Ian Huntley's articles can be cited as dated to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your accusation of "invention" against Graham Boak and I is false and without foundation. 4) Climate is a red herring. You are again missing my point here which was about the disappearance of "Tropical land scheme" from AMOs and its replacement with the term "Desert scheme". In other words, for tropical areas that were not actually desert terrain Temperate scheme was considered suitable. This still creates issues, especially around expediency, as the question of colour schemes on fighters in early SEAC and in Italy demonstrates. 5) Yes, that is why I used the word "might" to make it clear it was conjecture on my part. I think that is allowed. 6) I have to disagree for the reasons I have already stated. I do find it ambiguous. 7) Your conclusion that Tropical land scheme = Dark Green & Midstone never existed has not been "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" for the simple reason that AMO A.513 existed in the form it existed in (for several months) and notwithstanding the subsequent correction you cannot possibly know that aircraft were not so painted. Therefore I do still have a reasonable doubt about this, whilst acknowledging that you have provided additional material to evidence that the original AMO was subsequently corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Nick; Sorry for using this space, but could you please contact me. modeldad@verizon.net I sent you an email, but not sure if it was the correct address. I'd be most appreciative. Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Some screen shots.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The Tomahawk is interesting as it looks as if possibly a light colour paint - light earth, midstone or something else - has been painted over the Temperate land scheme without following the original pattern. Of course this is just "more speculation" on my part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The Tomahawk is interesting as it looks as if possibly a light colour paint - light earth, midstone or something else - has been painted over the Temperate land scheme without following the original pattern. Of course this is just "more speculation" on my part! It does make me wonder if the lighter patches on the Gladiator are a similar field-applied mod, ending up with a (possible) Dark Green/Dark Earth/Light stone camo, somewhat reminiscent to how some Stukas were given a disruptive sand finish over the green camo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The penultimate Gladiator screenshot (serial ending "24") seems to show a light-toned shade over the "Dark Earth" (if it is Dark Earth). This could be a variation on the 4-colour biplane camo where everything that would be "in shadow" wears a lighter tone??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) On 9/10/2012 at 5:32 PM, Nick Millman said: The Tomahawk is interesting as it looks as if possibly a light colour paint - light earth, midstone or something else - has been painted over the Temperate land scheme without following the original pattern. Of course this is just "more speculation" on my part! n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Mark With the greatest respect I am not interested in receiving a reply as this has gone on beyond any useful purpose. I have set out my views and you have set out yours. I commented above about a Tomahawk and you replied about a Gladiator which is about par for the course for this discussion. I would however appreciate the public retraction of your accusation that I "invented" the Tropical land scheme as being Dark Green and Midstone for the reasons set out clearly above. Even if the inclusion of this term in AMO A.513/41 is disregarded as an error, since Ian Huntley was writing about the existence of this scheme long before the internet even existed that accusation is plainly false. Graham Boak and I might have defended the possibility of the scheme but we did not invent that possibility. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) On 9/11/2012 at 6:41 PM, Nick Millman said: I would however appreciate the public retraction of your accusation that I "invented" the Tropical land scheme as being Dark Green and Midstone for the reasons set out clearly above. n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Nick, Point taken, I hereby retract that claim and apologise. Regards, Mark Thank you Mark. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 As I started this one, I thought it worth chipping in! As I said before, I always thought the reference to ''Dark Green' in AMO A.513/41 must have been a typographical error, but until Mark posted the memo showing that, the timescale for 'correction' of that error was such a long one that it could have been seen to be have been the 'official' (by implication) Tropical Land Scheme. I need to go back and find the Huntley article, but I suspect that would have been influenced by 513/41 - as indeed was the Guidelines book on the Hurricane (Combat Colours 2), whose profiles of Dark Green/Middlestone Hurricanes are now questionable in the extreme. No doubt we will be fighting that ascertion for years! I wonder if SAM would publish Mark's findings as an update to their earlier book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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