Spitfire I colours and paint matching?

[Col.]

The time is drawing ever nearer for me to start painting a Tamiya 48th scale Spitfire I and I've been looking at paint recommendations from various manufacturers for the upper surface green and dark earth. Since this has got me totaly confused I thought it best to ask the experts here.

I use enamels and have access to Humbrol and Revell paints from my LMS so went looking for Humbrol numbers 29 & 30 as advised in pretty much every Airfix Spitfire kit around. Alas they were out of stock but Karen had a check and offered me Revell numbers 39 for the green and 82 for the dark earth. The tin lid colour for the dark earth looks alright to my eye but the green seems a touch too grey in comparison to Humbrol number 30. Can anyone offer me advice as to how 'right' they really are or if it's worth waiting for the Humbrol tins to come through?

[Test Graham]

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/colorcharts.asp might be a help to you, with a little cross-referencing.

Hu30 is too green - it should be more olive. Hu116 is far better. I don't know the Revell equivalent, if any, but 363 is linked to the same FS number, so should be close.

Hu29 is a good match, but I can't find an equivalent.

[Col.]

Thank you Graham, I did think Hu30 was a very 'Green' green, never thought of Hu116 but it does look a more resonable match to those period colour photos I can find. Time for a dig around in the paint stash.

Edit - at least I can get a base coat of Hu29 on in the meantime.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Col.

[Nick Millman]

Full size Dark Green is closer to FS 34083 than 34079 which is most often cited. It is a more saturated and less "grey" colour but I guess 'scale' comes into it and the fact that many samples in the past were probably matched to degraded paint surfaces. Revell 363 (RAL 6020) is significantly greener with a difference calculation of 7.60 so you would need to add some red. I can't speak for 39 I'm afraid as I don't have a sample and it is not linked to a RAL value.

I think 116 is a better representation than 30 but the tins I have show alarming differences with a couple being almost more grey than green!

To give you a feel for the paint one commercial formula included chromium oxide (green), brown precipitated iron oxide and vegetable black, the latter two in the ratio 46% and 19% to the Green respectively or very roughly 10:5:2.

[Col.]

Thank you Nick. If both you and Graham tell me Hu116 is a good match that will do for me.

At least I don't have so much trouble for the silver, white. black undersurfaces. Edit- oops, I mean Night of course rather than 'black'.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Col.

[Smithy]

I've used 116 in the past on two builds when I returned to the hobby but personally think it ends up being a tad too dark.

I've been using 163 for about 7 years now and am very happy with it. It's a satin colour but that's not a problem as you'll most probably be gloss coating prior to decals and then finishing with a matt coat.

[John]

Humbrol recently posted on their Facebook page that "We have reformulated No.30 Dark Green back to MAP 'Dark Green'."

We'll see!

John

[JMChladek]

That means it might be a crapshoot for a bit to get a #30 tin in either the proper remixed colour, or the older one. Is there a way to tell at a glance if one gets new 30 or old 30 (albeit with a shop out of stock, that makes it academic, but the distributor might have some old tins as well floating around unless they happen to be out as well and get a fresh restock of the new stuff).

[Nick Millman]

I've used 116 in the past on two builds when I returned to the hobby but personally think it ends up being a tad too dark.

I've been using 163 for about 7 years now and am very happy with it. It's a satin colour but that's not a problem as you'll most probably be gloss coating prior to decals and then finishing with a matt coat.

163 is not bad at all and quite close to the full size colour but some might consider it not quite green enough.

[Test Graham]

Humbrol recently posted on their Facebook page that "We have reformulated No.30 Dark Green back to MAP 'Dark Green'."

We'll see!

John

It never was. This is PR cobblers. There was much the same difference back in the mid-60s when they first brought out the Authentics range.

[Col.]

So both Hu116 & Hu163 ar eboth viable options. Was so busy working on the model this evening I forgot to dig through the paint stash Oh well, job for tomorrow, at least this gives me a couple options to look for in the stash or local model shop.

Thanks for all this help gents.

[lar74]

Iam looking to do Spitfire I BoB but want to do the underside light blue instead of sky but i dont know how common that colour was, any advice please.

[Test Graham]

Rare. Examples were noted by spotters at the time The best work on the subject is Paul Lucas's The Battle for Britain from Guideline, but despite many examples of non-standard undersides (perhaps an unjustifiably large number) the only profiles provided for blue undersides are for single examples of 610 Sq, 74 Sq 616 Sq and 222 Sq.. The book presents archeological evidence for 222 Sq, plus 85 and 607 Sq Hurricanes. The suggestion is that these aircraft were painted in BSS 361 (1930) No. 1 Sky Blue, which is darker than the wartime Sky Blue.

Edit 66 Sq should be 616 Sq. changed.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Graham Boak

[thx6667]

Here's one I made earlier:

IIRC the colours were Vallejo Air 024 Khaki Brown and 012 Dark Green, cut back with a little white to add "scale effect", final finish being Humbrol's new matt acrylics sprays. On my next model I may try something different, but I do think lightening the colours does stop swamping smaller scales like 1/72 even if the final mixes are a tad off from my MAP swatches.

[Don McIntyre]

With the variable quality of Humbrol paints, I'd skip that and go directly for Xtracolour. It should be easy enough to get (I assume you're in the UK), either through your LHS or mail order. You'll be a lot happier, I think. That being said, Jonathan's Spitfire above looks very nice.

[Smithy]

Rare. Examples were noted by spotters at the time The best work on the subject is Paul Lucas's The Battle for Britain from Guideline, but despite many examples of non-standard undersides (perhaps an unjustifiably large number) the only profiles provided for blue undersides are for single examples of 610 Sq, 74 Sq 66 Sq and 222 Sq.. The book presents archeological evidence for 222 Sq, plus 85 and 607 Sq Hurricanes. The suggestion is that these aircraft were painted in BSS 361 (1930) No. 1 Sky Blue, which is darker than the wartime Sky Blue.

As Graham says the best work currently is Lucas'. The problem was with the introduction of Sky Type S that it was an entirely new colour which MU and squadrons were unsure of the exact nature. AM's description as it being"duck egg bluish green" added to the bewilderment and led to squadrons and MUs using what they could find in RAF stores and mixing their own.

In terms of a "light blue" if that is what you are after, there is annecdotal evidence (and I'll have to dig Lucas' work out but IIRC there might be some archaelogical evidence as well) that 616 were using a light blue around August, which one theory has suggested might have been "Air Ministry Blue" - a colour used later in 1940 after the Battle of Britain initially when the coloured spinners and fuselage band identification markings were brought in. That's probably the lightest blue which so far has been suggested for Battle of Britain undersides.

[Test Graham]

"AM Blue" doesn't existing in paint records (AFAIK) but from the photographs appears to be a remarkably close match to the official Sky Blue, which does. So much so, why introduce another name for it? I understand that the RAE recommended Sky Blue for undersides but was overruled by those who had seen Sky on the PR Spitfires and the Blenheim undersides.

My very personal opinion is that at some initial stage "duck egg blue" was Sky Blue and "duck egg green" was Sky, but totally understandably this confused everyone. As Nick Millman would no doubt point out, Sky isn't a real green and is more blue anyway.

My listing or squadrons above comes from Lucas, and 66 should be 616, sorry. I shall correct it.

[Smithy]

"AM Blue" doesn't existing in paint records (AFAIK) but from the photographs appears to be a remarkably close match to the official Sky Blue, which does.

I was using Lucas' work where he talks about the 616 underside blue being possibly the "AM sky blue", a colour he talks about on page 85 in his work on BoB markings.

[Test Graham]

OK, I understand now. I think this is to distinguish the pale wartime Sky Blue from the darker prewar one in the 1930 British Standards. We are both talking about the same colour. I was a bit afraid there'd been another source with yet another description....

[Nick Millman]

As Nick Millman would no doubt point out, Sky isn't a real green and is more blue anyway.

I do wish people would stop writing my comments for me! ;-) I have mentioned the blue vs green difficulties of these colours many times before and also the difference between a paint colour standard and an applied paint.

For Sky, the MAP paint colour standard is Munsell 2.5 GY 7/1 which is a Green-Yellow not a Blue. Even the current BS 381C Sky 210 gives an approximate Munsell reference of 4.7 GY 6.9/1.9. The constituent pigments of the paints mixed to match Sky varied. Titanine used titanium dioxide (white), yellow ochre and Prussian blue. Another manufacturer Goodlass, Wall & Co used antimony oxide (PW11 aka "antimony white" ), vegetable black, chromium oxide (green) and yellow precipitated iron oxide to match to Sky. Yellow ochres and yellow iron oxides are not pure yellows but slightly brownish yellows.

If standard RAF stores white, yellow and blue are mixed in the approximate ratio used for Sky a slightly different range of colour results which, depending on mixing ratios, can have the appearance of two BSi 318c 1931 paint colour standards - No.1 Sky Blue and No.16 Eau-de-Nil. Because of this the hypothesis that paints to those two paint colour standards were somehow procured to substitute for Sky has no more merit than the idea that existing stores paints were mixed, resulting in considerable variance. I know which one I consider more probable, especially as there are at least two documents that refer to the requirement to produce the colour by mixing.

MAP Sky Blue (Munsell 6.1 B 7.6/1.6) was a pre-war RAE formulated paint colour that was at one point argued for in preference to Sky. I don't know whether stocks of this Sky Blue would have been found in RAF station stores but if they were I have no doubt that it might have been viewed as an approximate "duck egg blue" either by itself or mixed with yellow.

[Col.]

Here's one I made earlier:

IIRC the colours were Vallejo Air 024 Khaki Brown and 012 Dark Green, cut back with a little white to add "scale effect", final finish being Humbrol's new matt acrylics sprays. On my next model I may try something different, but I do think lightening the colours does stop swamping smaller scales like 1/72 even if the final mixes are a tad off from my MAP swatches.

That's very nicely done Jonathan. New Airfix 72nd kit? If I get a finish like that in 48th I'll be delighted. The non-standard roundels are very attractive as well.

With the variable quality of Humbrol paints, I'd skip that and go directly for Xtracolour. It should be easy enough to get (I assume you're in the UK), either through your LHS or mail order. You'll be a lot happier, I think. That being said, Jonathan's Spitfire above looks very nice.

Not come across much issues with the Humbrol enamels yet but perhaps a combination of luck and plenty old paint stocks Don Been thinking about trying the Xtraclour range for a while but don't think my LMS can get it in.

On the subject of non-standard roundels and paint colours; can you chaps recommend any enamels to use for the red and blue of the roundels around mid to late 1939? The photo I've found to work from shows what I interpret to be LO * B with small diameter Type B upper wing roundels with a smaller than standard red center and Type A fuselage roundels overlapping the codes. While the latter I have the former match nothing I can find so will have to mask and spray them. While I'm at it is there a good match for the Sky(?) code letters as well?

Think these are my last daft questions on the subject.

[Test Graham]

Early code letters are Medium Sea Grey, and used to be available from Modeldecal. I believe they are available now, but can't remember who from, so a check on the likes of Hannant or Flightdecal should help you.

[Col.]

Thanks for the code colour correction Graham. Have 'L' & 'O' from an Aeromaster sheet but will need to butcher a couple other letters to make a 'B' so was considering painting all the main markings. Knowing the correct colour will make matching paint a good bit easier.

[lar74]

Thanks for everyones replies, i will just do sky or sky/black depending on the decals.

[gruffy]

Humbrol recently posted on their Facebook page that "We have reformulated No.30 Dark Green back to MAP 'Dark Green'."

We'll see!

John

Interesting to see it , anyone know when it's going to be on sale?