Airfix A50030 - Spitfire Va Douglas Bader

[Sean_M]

Ok so I could not help myself and decided to try a new red airfix release. DB's Spitfire. I hope to do a progress buld history, however my first glance leads me to believe that the decals are incorrect. They include a "242 Kicking Hitler's bottom". Now I stand open to corretction because this seems such an obvious error. DB went over to 610 which flew Spits, so he would not have had that emblem on his Spit. 242 flew Hurricanes. What is also strange is Airfix have included a tear drop canopy. Thought that DB may have flow his spit for a while with 242 Sqdn but they on got VB's in 1942 ny which time DB was a POW. Anyone care to shed some light....

[Sean_M]

sorry put this in WI if admin can move please to WII

[thx6667]

There's photos of Baders Va with the kick bottom artwork, I think on of Dilip Sarkars books has such.

[Sean_M]

which book(s) in particular?

[c.smith10]

any help?

[Robert Stuart]

Just checked the Victory Productions "Spitfire - Aces of the Empire" decal instructions (review here: http://www.cybermode..._vpd48006.shtml)

They offer the Kick bottom artwork on a Mk IIa (P7966), commenting that photos of Bader's Spitfire with that artwork are consistent with known photos of his Mk lla and that they doubt any photos of the Mk Va exist.

{edit} VP make no mention of a Vb, only of P7966 (Mk lla) and a Va, which reached 616 Squadron on 28 July {/edit}

{edit 2} Is that photo a Hurricane?

The Panel lines look more Hurricane than Spitfire to me {/edit 2}

Edited August 12, 2012 by Robert Stuart

[thx6667]

They offer the Kick bottom artwork on a Mk IIa (P7966), commenting that photos of Bader's Spitfire with that artwork are consistent with known photos of his Mk lla and that they doubt any photos of the Mk Va exist.

They've obviously never spoken to Chris Charlsworth.

[tardis2]

THATS A HURICANE

[Sean_M]

The above Photo is if DB's Hurricane. 242 is clearly seen on the "Boot" indicating Squadron. I find it odd that its included in the Decals for DB's Va. I agree with the consensus that he flew still usuing 8x.303 brownings and did not like the 20mm Hispanio as I his opion they jammed and pilots would fire from too far way. He is quoted as saying that he would fly his 8 gun spit as long as the machanics could keep it flying.I found a photo (plate 139 pg 131) The spitfire story - Alan Price of DB's Va Spitfire. It also does not have the cannon and magazine buldges. I took a close look at the wings on the Airfix kit and there are wing bbuldges. The kit is market as DB's Spitfire. Its a red box so I understood it to be a new release. The aircraft decals are for W3185. The Blisters are also too near the wing root. Looking at photo's in Price's book the magazine blisters were closer to the ailerons. Is this new kit turning out to be a bad one.

[Harry Lime]

Those bulges on the wing are nothing to do with cannons, they are a post war mod for the wheel wells seen on restored Spits.

Mark.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Harry Lime

[Sean_M]

This make for some interesting reading http://www.modelairplanecollectors.com/forum/topics/douglas-bader-s-spitfire-mk-va

[Sean_M]

Those bulges on the wing are nothing to do with cannons, they are a post war mod for the wheel wells seen on restored Spits.

Mark.

Ok so - they need to go if one is depicting DB's actual Va. Thanks Mark. You learn something every day.

[Sean_M]

Now of course for to oper up an old can of worms. The correct paint scheme.

Question 1: Is the Top an "A" or "B" pattern or did that apply only to hurricanes?

Question 2: Paint provided for the underside is Sky "S" so I think this is correct, Sky Blue was in short supply and only used after 15 August 1941. NOW the kit provides no underwing roundels. As photos of this aircraf are in short supply what's the consensus. Some paint schemes show the aircraft with the traditional red/white/blue roundel whil others do not.

I think there has been a lot of mix up between DB's earlier Spitfire II and his replacement Va.

I am satified by the research that the Va had Type "A" wings as this was the only type that could carry 8x.303 Brownings. The post war wheel bulges need to be flattened as pointed out by Mark, above.

IMHO I do not think "Hitler being kicked" was the unofficial motiff for 242 Sqdn and by 9th August 1941 DB would probably not have had it on his aircraft.

616 was just being re-equiped the Va's and most of the Tangmere wing consisted of Spitfire II and Hurricanes

It wa sso much easier building models as a boy. you accepted the Kit as is and just built the model. Sigh!

[Sid de Koning]

It wa sso much easier building models as a boy. you accepted the Kit as is and just built the model. Sigh!

Amen..

[Troy Smith]

Hi Sean

First I'd PM a moderator and ask that this be moved to the WW2 section, as you get a lot more useful responses there!

Now of course for to oper up an old can of worms. The correct paint scheme.

Question 1: Is the Top an "A" or "B" pattern or did that apply only to hurricanes?

No, the A/B was used until just the one was settled on. You should be able to work it out from the photos. I'll dig out my Ducimus book later.

note the visble edge of camo on this -

Question 2: Paint provided for the underside is Sky "S" so I think this is correct, Sky Blue was in short supply and only used after 15 August 1941. NOW the kit provides no underwing roundels. As photos of this aircraf are in short supply what's the consensus. Some paint schemes show the aircraft with the traditional red/white/blue roundel whil others do not.

Sky type s, and there should be underwing roundels.

I think there has been a lot of mix up between DB's earlier Spitfire II and his replacement Va.

I am satified by the research that the Va had Type "A" wings as this was the only type that could carry 8x.303 Brownings. The post war wheel bulges need to be flattened as pointed out by Mark, above.

An 'A' wing by definition is 8 x .303 guns.

As you already have the kit, do want to make it a better model? The Airfix kit is a mixed bag, but some modifications will go a long way!

This was originally posted here,

http://www.britmodel...37

But figure may of use to others.[aside from the argument s to the best Spitfire I/II/VA,]

so in the best Blue Peter tradition, here's one I made earlier...

As I said, I bought two of the kits when first released with great anticipation. And I bought a third recently for the markings. However, I was really disappointed!!

I think that the shape of the fin is already noted as lacking a more 'roman nose' on the forward edge, but it looks more serious than that to me. The radio hatch behind the cockpit is too rectangular with square corners, and the cockpit access is suspect. The blisters on the top cowling are hardly there, neither are the bulges over the wheels on the wing, and what is there is very undefined. The oil cooler also looks dodgy as does the 'depth' of the troughs within the gullwing. I'm not keen on the 'ribbing' on the ailerons either. But the worst thing to me is that there is no definition/difference between panel lines and the gaps between flying surfaces.

The problems with the Tamiya Spit are: 1. a slightly dodgy wing plan which is easily corrected with some sanding, and 2. it's supposed to be a little 'overweight' around the cockpit somewhere.

I'd far rather do a bit of sanding than try to replace bits and rescribe lines etc. This is only my opinion however!! If only Airfix had put in as much effort on the 1/48 as on the 1/72 version – now that's a little beauty!! (Panel lines a bit heavy though!)

Nick

Nick is correct on the radio hatch, but the cockpit access looks fine. For the rest of these details please compare with the walkround linked below.

and

The only point in the Airfix kits favour is the cowl profile, which looks a little more typical than Tamiya over the top, it falls down in the poor detail, thick flying surfaces, god-awful separate flaps and the thick, mis-shapen fin.

The Devil is in the detail really, though the Airfix nose (inherited from the VB kit) is a major error, too high thrust line, make nose ring too big, and so the spinner(s)

the shape of the wing and fuselage are correct, unlike the Tamiya.

this was well covered in a thread on Hyperscale by John Adams

http://www.network54... Spitfire Mk-1-

relevant pics, but do read the thread.

To make things clear those pics were the fix for the Airfix Mk.V and although I don't have that here, I recall I was able to sand off the nose top and reshape it without going through the plastic.

Airfix have reshaped the Mk.1 nose slightly so the thrust line/spinner needs to be dropped about .75mm. To those who think this too critical it simply creates the correct top cowl line which has a subtle curve down, towards the front. I suggest that one tapes up the under cowl and temporarily stick on a disc of thin plastic card which is the spinner backplate dia .75 mm lower and blend the nose in to this.

I hope that this makes sense.

Cheers

John

areas sanded in blue

These are John Adams pics from the thread i linked too, but posted here for ease of reference

The Tamiya kit is not only a bit fat round the cockpit, but also a bit short. ( i have seen build that grafts on an ICM tail before to correct the length)

Check against the ICM, and also compare the internal bulkheads with the Tamiya to see how fat the fuselage shape is. The ICM spitfire is generally reckoned to be the best shaped mid period Spifire. see here.

So if you build a load of Spitfire, you will notice the change when between Tamiya based and ICM based.

http://www.clubhyper...parisonba_1.htm

Correcting the Tamiya wing also involves rescribing the flaps. The Tamiya kit is very well moulded, and has lovely surface detail, and does fit.

The Airfix kit needs some replacements, which fortunately are alternate parts in other kits, specifically, use the early style rudder and tailplanes from an ICM Spitfire, (it has both types, the later pointy rudder and new mass balanced tail planes used on VIII and later IX's) and replace the Spinner with a spare form the Airfix Hurricane, which has both DeHavilland and Rotol types supplied, use the Dh for the MKI and the Rotol for the MkII (so will be sitting around in spares boxes)

Use the Airfix spinner as a sanding back guide.

The Airfix ruddder line is in the wrong place, Airfix grey, ICM white. Correct rudder line pencilled in. Blue shows area to be trimmed back at front of fin.

note this is only ONE side of the Airfix Rudder compared to the ICM rudder. The tailplanes can be made to fit with plastic card shims.

The aileron fabric detail needs toning down a lot!

The inner gun ejector port should just be a slot, and the ribbing in the wheel wells is over done. The cockpit cover would be better with a vac, especially if posed open, but I think the Eduard zoom for Tamiya set will fit OK. (I'll find out) The early Spits use the 5 spoke wheel.

anyone wanting to do this, I would suggest going here, and right clicking a lot,

http://www.primeport...ndex.php?Page=1

The science museum Spitfire, as it's hanging up you get all the underside detail. Note the gaps on the flaps as well. (relevant if use use the Airfix kit as it's a bit gappy)

At some point I'll post a build here with relevant mods. Another recent thread was about the correct colour for the cockpit, it seems it was not standard interior grey green, but a bit lighter, a suggestion was made for tamiya XF -71 (Japanese interior green) I just bought some and this look pretty good compared to thread pics posted on the subject.

If you do modify the nose thrust line contours as shown, then you will need a new prop.

An Airfix Hurricane has both the Spitfire type DH and Spitfire type Rotol, so there are plenty in spares boxes. I'm not sure off hand what would be the correct prop fitted to a VA, another question to be answered.

Finally, as Sean does not have 100 posts, perhaps someone reading this who recently got the revell rebox of the ICM Spitfire XVI could send him the early style rudder and tailplanes which are surplus parts, and make very good replacements for the thick Airfix bits.

Any more questions?

HTH

T

[Giorgio N]

When you speak of wing bulges, do you mean the ones on the wing ? These are present on every A and B-wing spitfire, so they were also present on DB Mk.Va. They disappeared on the Mk.Vc.

[mhaselden]

IMHO I do not think "Hitler being kicked" was the unofficial motiff for 242 Sqdn and by 9th August 1941 DB would probably not have had it on his aircraft.

One of Dilip Sarkar's Battle of Britain photo books (sorry, can't remember which one) shows Bader's MkVa with the "boot on Hitler" clearly visible on the port nose. I think it's smaller than depicted on 242 Sqn's Hurricanes but it was certainly there on his Spit.

[Jennings Heilig]

They've obviously never spoken to Chris Charlsworth.

No we didn't. I've never heard of him, and nobody who was on the team that did the research for the Victory sheet back in 2000 was in touch with him. If you have contact info, I'd *love* to be in touch with him now!

[thx6667]

No we didn't. I've never heard of him, and nobody who was on the team that did the research for the Victory sheet back in 2000 was in touch with him. If you have contact info, I'd *love* to be in touch with him now!

Surprisingly, there are actualy some Spitfire boffs on this side of the pond.

[Sean_M]

Here is the original thread on Va. It was Harry Lime who said bulges were post war

[Sean_M]

Thank you admin for moving it to the correct category

[Graham Boak]

There were bulges on the A and B wing over the wheel well: there were also bulges added postwar for tyres. I don't have the kit to distinguish between them, assuming that I could... I'm sure Edgar can.

[Edgar]

There were small bulges, virtually kidney-shaped, as are visible in this drawing, just inboard of the over-wing stiffening strakes (which would not have been fitted on Bader's aircraft.)

The very much larger, teardrop, fairings were mostly postwar on "C" & "E" wings, and were never fitted to the early Marks of Spitfire.