Stirling N3638

[12jaguar]

Hi all

hoping for someone knowledgeable on here who might ba able to help me with the undersurface scheme on this aircraft. The following link takes you to a photo of the aircraft which shows a green/brown upper surface but with lighter undersurfaces. My gut feeling is that this should be Sky but I have a sneaky suspicion that it could be yellow as I've been told that some early aircraft were painted such as they were used for training prior to delivery to operational squadrons.

Additionally does anyone know where I could get Bristol Hercules exhausts as shown on this aircraft.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118174

TIA

John

Edited July 18, 2012 by 12jaguar

[Test Graham]

I've a sneaky suspicion you might be right, but not for the reason suggested. N3638 was retained by Shorts for development work. So was N3635, and she was recorded with yellow undersurfaces. Whether a development aircraft counted as a prototype and therefore was painted with yellow undersides rather depended, I suspect, on how long it was intended to be used for. How long was N3638 retained?

Mike Bowyer, in Bombing Colours, says nothing about early Stirlings used for training having yellow undersides, and it was certainly not normal practice for combat types. He does however tell us that some of the early Stirlings were flying with Sky undersides apparently as a guide to their safety. This suggests to me that the aircraft were being delivered in black (Night) and repainted Sky locally. This also suggests that N3638 would have yellow.

For confirmation, you need to find similar pictures of other early production Stirlings before delivery to the squadron.

[12jaguar]

I've a sneaky suspicion you might be right, but not for the reason suggested. N3638 was retained by Shorts for development work. So was N3635, and she was recorded with yellow undersurfaces. Whether a development aircraft counted as a prototype and therefore was painted with yellow undersides rather depended, I suspect, on how long it was intended to be used for. How long was N3638 retained?

Mike Bowyer, in Bombing Colours, says nothing about early Stirlings used for training having yellow undersides, and it was certainly not normal practice for combat types. He does however tell us that some of the early Stirlings were flying with Sky undersides apparently as a guide to their safety. This suggests to me that the aircraft were being delivered in black (Night) and repainted Sky locally. This also suggests that N3638 would have yellow.

For confirmation, you need to find similar pictures of other early production Stirlings before delivery to the squadron.

thanks Graham

I've just dug out my copy of Bowyers' The Stirling Story. The history for N3638 states:

22MU - 8/6/40

Short Bros - 13/7/40

C, L 7 Sqn - 10/9/40

XV sqn - 13.6.41

149 sqn - 24/11/41

106 CF - 3/1/42

4 SoTT - 3013M No date

I have a picture of N3641 at Oakington which appears to have whatever the underside colour is overpainted in Black. I also have some much better pics of N3638 which show that the overall scheme was very well finished. Gut feeling is that these early aircraft were delivered on the cusp of Bomber Commands transition to Night Operations so a day Bomber scheme would be appropriate. There is a profile on Wings pallette which shows Sky for this aircraft so the jury is still out...

Edit: I've just found a picture on page 35 of the above book with the following caption:

"N3638, a Stirling Trainer' with yellow under surfaces pictured at Belfast.

I suppose I'll have to trust Mr Bowyer, yellow it is.

John

Edited July 18, 2012 by 12jaguar

[Test Graham]

There was no such transition. Bomber Command didn't have Sky for its heavies, only for the Blenheims and later smaller types. You won't find a Wellington, Whitley, Manchester or Halifax in Sky.

That may be something of a hostage to fate, given the range of uses the Wellington was put to, so I'll modify it to "you won't find a Bomber Command Wellington of that period in Sky".

Later on in his pages, Bowyer does report three Stirlings with yellow undersides and no codes - one of these was N3637. A hint? This does indeed suggest that the Stirling was an exception to the general rule that combat aircraft did not receive yellow undersides when used for training, but I've another explanation. The first few aircraft off any production line tend to fall short of the true production standard, so keeping them for development work and/or training until they could be spared for a rework makes a lot of sense. They could then have been painted yellow undersides as development aircraft - not to be used for combat.

An interesting little mystery, but I'm even more convinced N3638 was yellow.

[12jaguar]

There was no such transition. Bomber Command didn't have Sky for its heavies, only for the Blenheims and later smaller types. You won't find a Wellington, Whitley, Manchester or Halifax in Sky.

That may be something of a hostage to fate, given the range of uses the Wellington was put to, so I'll modify it to "you won't find a Bomber Command Wellington of that period in Sky".

Later on in his pages, Bowyer does report three Stirlings with yellow undersides and no codes - one of these was N3637. A hint? This does indeed suggest that the Stirling was an exception to the general rule that combat aircraft did not receive yellow undersides when used for training, but I've another explanation. The first few aircraft off any production line tend to fall short of the true production standard, so keeping them for development work and/or training until they could be spared for a rework makes a lot of sense. They could then have been painted yellow undersides as development aircraft - not to be used for combat.

An interesting little mystery, but I'm even more convinced N3638 was yellow.

Hi Graham

I'm now convinced, Bowyers' description of N3638 as a trainer with yellow undersurfaces clinches it for me. His book goes on to state that these early aircraft had Hercules III engines in monocoque nacelles which made engine changes more difficult. that said this aircraft appeared to enter sqn service although judging by the short period with each sqn it made sense that it was used for 'working up the crews during the early stages.

Funnily enough now that I know that it was yellow has made me go off the idea of modelling this scheme...ho hum!

John

Edited July 18, 2012 by 12jaguar

[sloegin57]

There was no such transition. Bomber Command didn't have Sky for its heavies, only for the Blenheims and later smaller types. You won't find a Wellington, Whitley, Manchester or Halifax in Sky.

That may be something of a hostage to fate, given the range of uses the Wellington was put to, so I'll modify it to "you won't find a Bomber Command Wellington of that period in Sky".

Later on in his pages, Bowyer does report three Stirlings with yellow undersides and no codes - one of these was N3637. A hint? This does indeed suggest that the Stirling was an exception to the general rule that combat aircraft did not receive yellow undersides when used for training, but I've another explanation. The first few aircraft off any production line tend to fall short of the true production standard, so keeping them for development work and/or training until they could be spared for a rework makes a lot of sense. They could then have been painted yellow undersides as development aircraft - not to be used for combat.

An interesting little mystery, but I'm even more convinced N3638 was yellow.

Another reason could be that due to the fact that problems with the Stirling's electrical system including the feeble undercarriage retraction motors, the weak legs, problems with the hydraulically operated throttles causing "throttle lag" and making the four engines almost impossible to synchronise on the early machines, the aircraft was, very early on, Officially relegated to Non-Operational Training Duties which would have justified the undersurfaces being painted yellow. This "relegation" would also give the crews a chance to get used to their new aircraft, carry out intensive flying trials and for the groundcrew to also get used to it and implement the usual myriad of modifications associated with the introduction of a new type.

I have also read very recently somewhere, and for the life of me I cannot find it again, that at least three or four of 7 Squadrons aircraft were painted yellow underneath whilst the Unit was at RAF Leeming, these being the earliest of the initial production run. They may well have followed the Squadron south to Oakington in October 1940. Whether they carried codes or not is still open.

It should also be remembered that the Battle of Britain was at it's height when the first aircraft were delivered to Leeming. Large four engined British aircraft were not exactly thick on the ground at that time especially those painted black underneath so painting them yellow on the undersurfaces, a well known "Trainer" colour, would hopefully prevent our "Ack-Ack" blowing holes in them.

HTH

Dennis

[12jaguar]

All these arguments make perfect sense and have convinced me that yellow was indeed the undersurface colour. However, as for no heavies having Sky, I've found some pics of Fortress 1s (MAM Aug 2007) with Sky undersurfaces in the same period as N3638 entering service.....

thanks all for your advice and assistance

cheers

John

Edited July 19, 2012 by 12jaguar

[sloegin57]

Finally John,

can I refer you to a build article in "Air Modeller" Issue 29 April/May2010 in which Andrea Vignocchi has given the old Airfix kit the Full Treatment - and I mean The Full Treatment. The amount of detail and improvements to this venerable kit are truly outstanding. I have no commercial interest in this bi-monthly magazine but it has inspired me to drag one out of the "stash" and build one again.

Dennis

[12jaguar]

Finally John,

can I refer you to a build article in "Air Modeller" Issue 29 April/May2010 in which Andrea Vignocchi has given the old Airfix kit the Full Treatment - and I mean The Full Treatment. The amount of detail and improvements to this venerable kit are truly outstanding. I have no commercial interest in this bi-monthly magazine but it has inspired me to drag one out of the "stash" and build one again.

Dennis

thankfully I have a 1:1 vestigial cockpit and plenty of internal photos to work from, see my link below

cheers

John

[Test Graham]

You are right about the Fortress - mea culpa - which was in a somewhat specialist role of experimental daylight high altitude bomber, something the poor Stirling could not be accused of.

The list of faults are really the sort of problem that I summed up as "falling short of the true production standard". Certainly not a happening unique to the Stirling, and still apparent today (if in a rather more organised and expected form).

Given on the one hand the presence of Ensigns, Albatrosses, a selection of other civil types and the Short flying boats, and on the other the distinct shortage of operational German 4-engined types, it isn't clear why British AA should be quite so touchy. Perhaps this is an example of the propaganda success of the Germans in hyping the Ju90, Fw200 and even the BV142? Bowyer actually suggests that Sky was used for protection from AA, which makes much less sense than the Yellow.

[12jaguar]

I'm now teetering on the fence as I've also been getting some views via the Flypast forum, which is partly coming down in favour of Sky

The thought has occured to me that I have a series of photos of this aircraft from the Public Records Office in NI which are close ups and which show that this was a gloss finish. Whilst it's not definitive, the wide yellow band has been added and as a rough guide I'd be interesting to see the tonal difference between the yellow band and the underside.

If I do build this aircraft I may just have to go with a gut feeling........oh for a colour photograph!

If that's the case can anyone point me in the direction of where I can get some Hercules III engines in cowlings as they look quite different to the Mk VI etc fitted to later aircraft?

cheers

John

Edited July 19, 2012 by 12jaguar

[hwallen1410]

Hi John,

Good luck with this, have good memories of this kit as it was the first big aircraft I built (soon followed by the Sunderland).

I am sure you have seen this already, but if not have a look at this link.

Book Online

It is the first few pages of Target By Moonlight by Dennis R Field.

The last 2 pages Show N3638 at Rochester (with fin flashes).

Don't know if this helps, but the underside does look somewhat glossy.

This is far from my comfort zone, but I hope it helps a little.

All the best,

H

[12jaguar]

Thanks H

In my searches, I'd come across that link and there's some very nice photos in the book. I'm very tempted to buy it as it's very reasonable. Whatever the colour is, it is it is quite glossy....

John

[bentwaters81tfw]

All very useful. I have plans for N3637, another type in Wg Cdr G H Stainforth's log book. As he was testing stuff at various locations, I can go for a yellow undersurface example. Any thoughts on the colour of the serial?

[Troy Smith]

Nobody has pointed this out.

The roundel yellow is the same tone as the underside.

In B/W photos you can usually make out a tonal difference between sky and yellow.

Do any of the other pics mentioned show this or a different tone?

The thought has occured to me that I have a series of photos of this aircraft from the Public Records Office in NI which are close ups and which show that this was a gloss finish. Whilst it's not definitive, the wide yellow band has been added and as a rough guide I'd be interesting to see the tonal difference between the yellow band and the underside.

HTH

T

[12jaguar]

Nobody has pointed this out.

The roundel yellow is the same tone as the underside.

In B/W photos you can usually make out a tonal difference between sky and yellow.

Do any of the other pics mentioned show this or a different tone?

HTH

T

I did at post 11.....

I have some other photos of the aircraft whilst at Belfast. I'll dig them out and report back.

John

[12jaguar]

As promised, I've posted a close up photo of this aircraft on the Flypast Forum showing the roundel and lower fuselage colour.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118174

There doesn't seem to be much tonal difference between the roundel and the lower surface but I'll leave this to more learned judgement

John

[Nick Millman]

I have a problem reconciling the diffuse reflectivity of the two colours Identity Yellow and Sky. G Palmer's RAE report Camouflage and Surface Finish of Aircraft in 1947 gives reflectivity of 57% and 43% respectively, which means that all things being equal the Yellow should appear lighter and brighter than Sky in most images. However a report on Matte (sic) camouflage paints for fighters prepared by the staff of the Chemistry Division of the RAE in May 1942 includes a table indicating the relationship between the matteness (sic) and roughness of several MAP colours then in use. This table also includes measurements of diffuse reflectivity which differs from the 1947 report in attributing 52% to Sky which puts it much closer to the Yellow.

The Yellow should still appear slightly lighter and brighter but in all the tests I have done the MAP Yellow paint standard colour always appears slightly darker in monochrome! I have not been able to reconcile this and it remains an anomaly that I cannot explain.

[12jaguar]

Hi Nick

if you came down on one side in the argument for the underside colour what would that be?

re post #14 above, the photo in the link on Flypast appears to show that the serial code is in black IMHO

John

[Nick Millman]

Because of the issue with the reflectivity I honestly couldn't say. Bowyer mentions N3635 as having "distinctive" yellow under surfaces which perhaps suggests that it was not the norm and goes on to say that at this time some of the early Stirlings were flying with Sky under surfaces. I don't think it is really possible to be definitive about what the photographs show and you would need other contexts to draw a conclusion. At the end of the day I think this is a situation where your interpretation probably depends on which you prefer and with the current information your choice would be neither "right" nor "wrong"!

[sloegin57]

Because of the issue with the reflectivity I honestly couldn't say. Bowyer mentions N3635 as having "distinctive" yellow under surfaces which perhaps suggests that it was not the norm and goes on to say that at this time some of the early Stirlings were flying with Sky under surfaces. I don't think it is really possible to be definitive about what the photographs show and you would need other contexts to draw a conclusion. At the end of the day I think this is a situation where your interpretation probably depends on which you prefer and with the current information your choice would be neither "right" nor "wrong"!

That's an honest answer and one that I can live with. The interpretation of colour from mono photographs has been the minefield that at least three generations of modellers have had to navigate.

Personally if I were building it, I would choose yellow not just because I believe it possibly was, but mainly because there would be far too many arched eyebrows at the Club if I did it in Sky.!!

An interesting discussion and thank you John for pointing out your web site. I realise now where so many individuals are getting so much information on the Stirling. A pity the Source was not acknowledged earlier.

Dennis

[12jaguar]

Thank you all for your significant contributions to this debate. It is obviously a minefield, there is conflicting documentary evidence and the photos are not conclusive enough in their own right.

I'm not overly pedantic when it comes to modelling, but I've been involved with the Stirling Project for over 15 years now and with the issue of the WEM Stirling set and Woody's excellent build I felt it was time to do the old girl some justice in my own humble way. If I'm going to do it I'm going to get the scheme right as far as possible so a 'safer' option might be the order of the day

Re our website, if any of you visit it, it will probably come across as being clunky and hasn't been updated in a while. More regular updates can be found on the Flypast Forum or the Stirling Aircraft Society Forum. The Website is slowly being overhauled and hopefully we're on the finishing straight where that's concerned.

We're a Charity so it's down to us to educate and inform the Public on the history of the aircraft and the people who designed, built, flew and mantained her. As a modeller and Secretary to the Project, I am always keen to assist people if they need info where I can so please contact me if you need help. At the end of the day this discussion has certainly expanded my knowledge of early Stirling operations so it can't all be bad LOL.

best regards

John

[Seahawk]

Personally if I were building it, I would choose yellow not just because I believe it possibly was, but mainly because there would be far too many arched eyebrows at the Club if I did it in Sky.!!

Wimp! For me the whole point of modelling (well, maybe I exaggerate a tad) is to produce models that get the experts sucking their teeth and muttering "such markings are of course clearly quite impossible" before whipping out a photo to prove them wrong. But then I'm not a nice person.