Hurricane "spaghetti" scheme: I said it was blue!

[Mark Mackenzie]

Nick Millman said:

Hostility? You mean like being "frozen" out of the discussion by the main protagonist and having your comments and queries ignored? 😉

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Spitfires Forever]

Of course the Tropical Land Scheme existed, otherwise my model would be inaccurate. And I don't build inaccurate models! :thumbsup:

Now you just need to make a Malta Spit in the same colors and my point is made! I just need to make a few adjustments on my home made time travel machine and we shall find out for sure! Send some one to fetch me if I don't make it back. Don't bother my wife, she doesn't care and would like to use the closet space that my models currently occupy for her scrap booking/stamping projects.

Cheers

[The wooksta V2.0]

Such negative waves! Where's the popcorn munching smiley?

[Edgar]

My point was, where did the sample originate from?

Was it just an odd mix by HQ M.E. to obtain a sample for Farnborough, or was it also intended to let authority know what colour was already in use and found to be effective "in the field"?

If so, I'd expect the sample to come from a mix then in use, albeit unofficially, so as to have it recognised.

You're asking for too many guesses; all I know is that M.E. H.Q. asked the Ministry of Aircraft Production, in future, to paint the undersides of replacement aircraft in a blue shade "sample herewith," made of a mix of blue, yellow and aluminium powder.

M.A.P. asked Farnborough for a formula (but without the powder) plus samples, accepted them, and asked for a further 50 (presumably for paint manufacturers and aircraft companies as guidelines.)

I can't (won't) speculate on what M.E.H.Q. did, or might have done, in the meantime, because we simply don't know. There's a common misconception that there were huge stocks of paint, in Egypt, but that wasn't the case; if you read "The War Magician," you'll find an account of how they produced sand camouflage paint, suitable for tanks, from rancid Worcester Sauce, and camel dung.

Edgar

[Steve in Ottawa]

(snip) if you read "The War Magician," you'll find an account of how they produced sand camouflage paint, suitable for tanks, from rancid Worcester Sauce, and camel dung.

Edgar

Eeeash! I've eaten at a British military mess; are you sure this was paint and a not a menu item?

Quite enjoying this discussion, by the way. I have nothing to contribute, but this is very interesting to read.

[Super Aereo]

I am fairly sure the Worcestershire sauce and camel dung was one of Maskelyne's private jokes in the book, rather than an actual event - I doubt that they would have had no paint of any kind at all to mx up some sand... :-)

[Edgar]

Then I suggest that you write to David Fisher, the author, and tell him that he's been made a fool of.

On the flyleaf, he writes, "The events in this book are true. Everything Jasper Maskelyne is credited with doing he actually accomplished."

Edited August 2, 2012 by Edgar

[Nick Millman]

Nick,

I did not intentionally freeze you out; just overloaded and could not reply to all. I did not post all of the files here but you and Graham are welcome to have them if you send me a pm with your email address.

Cheers,

Mark

Thanks Mark. The popcorn munchers can stand down. I would like to see the whole of that August letter if possible.

[Nick Millman]

I am fairly sure the Worcestershire sauce and camel dung was one of Maskelyne's private jokes in the book, rather than an actual event - I doubt that they would have had no paint of any kind at all to mx up some sand... :-)

Worcestershire sauces contained up to 30% soya oil which was also used as a drying oil in paints. In 1930 75% of the soy bean oil consumed in the USA was being used by the paint and varnish industries. In 1934 10,400,000 lbs of soya oil was used in the US paint and varnish industry, one of the highest usage rates for the oil.

“In varnish and lacquers soybean oil is the principal base. The Ford car is finished with a soybean lacquer and the Ford Company is erecting a $5,000,000 plant in Detroit to make soybean products."

A large quantity of fermented sauce might well have offered an exploitative expedient for the local manufacture of paint using readily available pigments.

[Steve in Ottawa]

Worcestershire sauces contained up to 30% soya oil which was also used as a drying oil in paints. In 1930 75% of the soy bean oil consumed in the USA was being used by the paint and varnish industries. In 1934 10,400,000 lbs of soya oil was used in the US paint and varnish industry, one of the highest usage rates for the oil.

“In varnish and lacquers soybean oil is the principal base. The Ford car is finished with a soybean lacquer and the Ford Company is erecting a $5,000,000 plant in Detroit to make soybean products."

A large quantity of fermented sauce might well have offered an exploitative expedient for the local manufacture of paint using readily available pigments.

I can't wait to hear your explanation of the camel dung aspect of the formula ...

(seriously, a fascinating point about the soya oil, W Sauce and paint - who knew?!??!)

[Edgar]

I have three "oddball" formulae, used in India:- Cement Milk Paint, which used Portland Cement and cow or buffalo milk; Cow Dung Paint, which used cow dung, Portland Cement, and road coal tar; Mocha, which used fish glue, and boiled linseed oil.

Edgar

P.S. These were, mainly, for camouflaging buildings, and usually required the addition of various dyes.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Edgar

[cheeley]

P.S. These were, mainly, for camouflaging buildings, and usually required the addition of various dyes.

...and the addition of a clothes peg on the nose, no doubt!

Chris

[ClaudioN]

You're asking for too many guesses; all I know is that M.E. H.Q. asked the Ministry of Aircraft Production, in future, to paint the undersides of replacement aircraft in a blue shade "sample herewith," made of a mix of blue, yellow and aluminium powder.

M.A.P. asked Farnborough for a formula (but without the powder) plus samples, accepted them, and asked for a further 50 (presumably for paint manufacturers and aircraft companies as guidelines.)

I can't (won't) speculate on what M.E.H.Q. did, or might have done, in the meantime, because we simply don't know. There's a common misconception that there were huge stocks of paint, in Egypt, but that wasn't the case; if you read "The War Magician," you'll find an account of how they produced sand camouflage paint, suitable for tanks, from rancid Worcester Sauce, and camel dung.

Edgar

You're right, thanks for you answer.

The "Iraqi blue" story was new to me (seemingly, there's one book by Paul Lucas I do really miss in my library), so I was just trying to figure out whether it could fit into the "spaghetti" story. Admittedly, just a number of guesses:

HQ M.E.: "Sorry to upset you, but we do not like Sky as underside colour."

MAP: "Oh, we see. And... do you have any preference?"

HQ M.E.: "Here's a sample we made, out here. We tried it out and are pleased with it. Could we have some more, please?"

MAP: "We'll ask Farnborough... what? No, aluminium powder is out of the question, but we'll try to get a close hue"

HQ M.E. "That's fine, thank you. We don't mind about the powder, you know. It's just we'd like to make life that little bit harder for enemy pilots."

I'm keen to read about AMO's in these threads, but unfortunately I can only rely on "secondary sources". My guess would be that a sample sent to MAP might have passed some form of local trials before (of which I have no evidence). If the trials were successful, limited use of the local mix might have been allowed (of which, again, I have no evidence)... and so on. It may perhaps sound logical, but it's just fiction, of course.

Regards

Claudio

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Talking of oddball camo, it reminds me of a time in germany some years ago.

I was talking to a ex ww2 german army guy, (one of the few who would admitt he was on the western front, everyone else always said they were on the eastern front)

Anyway he said in the ardennes, to camo the tanks they used mud, and with the addition of usual bits off bushes and trees added, it blended in real well with the local surrounds, that was about all he mentioned about ww2 .

As for photos ....... apparently he was a bit busy at the time .....

cheers

Jerry

[Mark Mackenzie]

Nick Millman said:

Thanks Mark. The popcorn munchers can stand down. I would like to see the whole of that August letter if possible.

 

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Mark Mackenzie]

Super Aereo said:

I am fairly sure the Worcestershire sauce and camel dung was one of Maskelyne's private jokes in the book, rather than an actual event - I doubt that they would have had no paint of any kind at all to mx up some sand... 🙂

 

 

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Nick Millman]

Nick:

Thanks Mark. Do you know who it was sent to/from (?) and what the queries (of doubtful points) were?

Three aspects stand out for me. That the painting of aircraft pre-delivery in the Desert scheme was by special provision and that these intentions do not necessarily have any bearing on what was being done, officially or unofficially, within ME Command.

The third aspect is perhaps more interesting - in that the wording of the paragraph implies that the "standard" factory finish for aircraft to be delivered to the ME was Temperate land over Azure Blue. That has significance for aircraft going on to SEAC from the ME in late 1941, especially Hurricanes.

It's a pity that the paint colour names were open to so much confusion as Azure Blue could be colloquially and legitimately described as sky blue and (MAP) Sky Blue even as duck egg blue in a pinch. All that doesn't help us determine what was what from monochrome photos or anecdotal accounts!

FWIW the diffuse reflectivity of Azure, referring to Graham's post above, was 30%, lighter than Sea Grey Medium at 26%, but darker than Sky at approx 43% and Sky Blue at 52%.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Nick Millman said:

Thanks Mark. Do you know who it was sent to/from (?) and what the queries (of doubtful points) were?

Three aspects stand out for me. That the painting of aircraft pre-delivery in the Desert scheme was by special provision and that these intentions do not necessarily have any bearing on what was being done, officially or unofficially, within ME Command.

The third aspect is perhaps more interesting - in that the wording of the paragraph implies that the "standard" factory finish for aircraft to be delivered to the ME was Temperate land over Azure Blue. That has significance for aircraft going on to SEAC from the ME in late 1941, especially Hurricanes.

It's a pity that the paint colour names were open to so much confusion as Azure Blue could be colloquially and legitimately described as sky blue and (MAP) Sky Blue even as duck egg blue in a pinch. All that doesn't help us determine what was what from monochrome photos or anecdotal accounts!

FWIW the diffuse reflectivity of Azure, referring to Graham's post above, was 30%, lighter than Sea Grey Medium at 26%, but darker than Sky at approx 43% and Sky Blue at 52%.

 

 

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Super Aereo]

The "iraqi blue" was quoted in "Britain Alone" IIRC.

I have no difficulty in believing that flour paste could be used to make sand stick to vehicles (at least until the first sandstorm or rain) but I don't believe the camel dung story and I am not the only one.

Please see: http://www.maskelynemagic.com/strangebrew.html

[Mark Mackenzie]

Nick Millman said:

Thanks Mark. Do you know who it was sent to/from (?) and what the queries (of doubtful points) were?

Three aspects stand out for me. That the painting of aircraft pre-delivery in the Desert scheme was by special provision and that these intentions do not necessarily have any bearing on what was being done, officially or unofficially, within ME Command.

The third aspect is perhaps more interesting - in that the wording of the paragraph implies that the "standard" factory finish for aircraft to be delivered to the ME was Temperate land over Azure Blue. That has significance for aircraft going on to SEAC from the ME in late 1941, especially Hurricanes.

It's a pity that the paint colour names were open to so much confusion as Azure Blue could be colloquially and legitimately described as sky blue and (MAP) Sky Blue even as duck egg blue in a pinch. All that doesn't help us determine what was what from monochrome photos or anecdotal accounts!

FWIW the diffuse reflectivity of Azure, referring to Graham's post above, was 30%, lighter than Sea Grey Medium at 26%, but darker than Sky at approx 43% and Sky Blue at 52%.

 

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[pigsty]

I have no difficulty in believing that flour paste could be used to make sand stick to vehicles (at least until the first sandstorm or rain) but I don't believe the camel dung story and I am not the only one.

I have no problem believing that camel dung could be useful for something - ever looked closely at a cob wall? But I do wonder where anyone could have found two thousand gallons of Worcestershire sauce outside the UK. That's forty standard oil drums of the stuff! Also, how could they know it was rancid? Isn't rotting part of the manufacturing process?

[Super Aereo]

I have no problem believing that camel dung could be useful for something - ever looked closely at a cob wall? But I do wonder where anyone could have found two thousand gallons of Worcestershire sauce outside the UK. That's forty standard oil drums of the stuff! Also, how could they know it was rancid? Isn't rotting part of the manufacturing process?

It is. Well, fermenting the ingredients is. The original was allegedly created after a barrel of pickled sauce for a client was forgotten in a corner of the warehouse and only found after a few years.

[Nick Millman]

I have no problem believing that camel dung could be useful for something - ever looked closely at a cob wall? But I do wonder where anyone could have found two thousand gallons of Worcestershire sauce outside the UK. That's forty standard oil drums of the stuff! Also, how could they know it was rancid? Isn't rotting part of the manufacturing process?

Try reading the History of Worcestershire Sauce 1837-2012 by William Shurtleff & Akiko Aoyagi, published by the Soyinfo Center and you will find within its 212 pages details of its widespread worldwide circulation and use before the war, in many forms, including the off-shoot industrial applications of the soya oil ingredient and especially the Soy sauce connection in the Far East. I have no problem believing that a large quantity of the raw ingredient - and forty oil drums is not that large a consignment in the scale of shipping freight - could have been sidelined in Egypt by the war - on the way East or West. Forty oil drums of Soya oil intended for Worcestershire sauce is not so amusing as the idea of table top bottles of Worcestershire sauce being used but the basic elements are entirely consistent with paint manufacture and embellished would make a good story.

[pigsty]

My god, he's got the ultimate reference work - who knew you could get modelling tips by studying condiments?

[Smithy]

Dark Earth does not look light in orthochromatic film, it look dark because of its red content. Study Battle of Britain photographs. DE can appear dark, or at best a medium shade, but not light. There are photos of TempLS where there is a high contrast, but not on Ortho film. There are photos showing DE as a light colour, of well-used aircraft where the colour has faded towards Light Earth.

Sorry might be a bit off topic but I had thought that brown can appear "lightish" in orthochromatic film dependent on the lighting conditions?

Also in non-orthochromatic film there are examples of DE showing as a light colour on newish airframes (eg. 72 Sqn's RN-N in flight in June 1940).

Very interesting discussion and thoroughly enjoying it.