RAF Type A1 Underwing Roundels in 1940 - How Common?

[mhaselden]

Hi Folks,

I recently purchased Andrew Thomas's excellent book on Defiant, Blenheim and Boston/Havoc aces which has another fine example of Mark Postlethwaite's artwork on the cover depicting a 264 Sqn Defiant (L7005, PS-X) in action on 29 May 1940. The painting shows the Defiant's port underwing as black with a Type A1 roundel. Similar markings were worn by 92 Sqn Spitfires in May 1940. However, the 92 Sqn machines seem to be exceptions - most other types seem to wear standard Type A not A1 applied over the black port underwing. So how common were Type A1 underwing roundels in May 1940 and is Mark's depiction of L7005 correct? Any ideas anyone...?

Many thanks,

Mark

[Troy Smith]

Mark

I suspect this will be to do when they were applied.

[EDIT adding without to first bit...must check post before more carfully!]

Aircraft based in France had underwing roundels as stardard, AFAIK without yellow ring, but in may 1940 aircraft that were based in England but operating over France had underwing roundels applied. The Defiants fit into this category. Others will know more.

Download the pdf's of the Ducimus Camo booklets, they might have the answer.

HTH

T

Edited July 7, 2012 by Troy Smith

[johnd]

Wasn't L7005 marked as PS-B? At least the Boulton Paul Association think so: here. The IWM has L7006 as PS-X: here

John.

Edited July 7, 2012 by johnd

[Edgar]

On May 15th., the order, for r/w/b roundels, underneath, was issued, then, on June 4th., a supplementary order was issued that the roundel, on the port wing, should have a yellow surround, not less than a quarter, and not more than the full, width of the blue circle, but it could be "broken," so that it did not encroach on the ailerons, or hinges.

On June 6th., an order was issued that undersides should be Sky, and roundels painted over, so the yellow would only have lasted until Squadrons got Sky paint, or the time to paint said Sky paint.

Edgar

[mhaselden]

Wasn't L7005 marked as PS-B? At least the Boulton Paul Association think so: here. The IWM has L7006 as PS-X: here

John.

There seems to be some confusion over which airframe was PS-X. The "Camouflage and Markings" booklet on the Defiant identifies it as L7006 but the more recent Air Britain book and Andrew Thomas's recent Osprey title both go with L7005.

Back to the original question, the camo diagrams in the "Camouflage and Markings" book don't include underwing roundels for the black/white underside recognition markings. However, Edgar's post clears up the official timeline for the Type A and Type A1 underwing roundels. I haven't seen any photos of 264 Sqn Defiants during the period in question so I very much doubt that we know for certain how they were marked (the change to A1 roundels was so brief that many units may not have had opportunity to implement the change).

[DCRanger]

The Defiant File has L7005 as PS-X but in this photo it looks to me more like L7006 or possibly L7008?

[mhaselden]

Dragging this thread back from the depths of doom but I recently found the pic below while searching for something else. It shows a 264 Sqn Defiant, probably taken at the time as all the other well-known Daffy photos from that unit.

The interesting thing (to me) is the underwing roundel applied to Sky undersides. I knew, logically, that the roundels would have been applied over the "new" Sky camouflage but it's always nice to have photographic evidence.

And, yes, I know this isn't particularly related to the original question...but it's a nice pic of a Defiant which, alone, merits a post (IMHO).

Edited February 3, 2016 by mhaselden

[Magpie22]

Agreed!!

[elanman]

On 7/8/2012 at 2:28 AM, mhaselden said:

There seems to be some confusion over which airframe was PS-X. The "Camouflage and Markings" booklet on the Defiant identifies it as L7006 but the more recent Air Britain book and Andrew Thomas's recent Osprey title both go with L7005.

Back to the original question, the camo diagrams in the "Camouflage and Markings" book don't include underwing roundels for the black/white underside recognition markings. However, Edgar's post clears up the official timeline for the Type A and Type A1 underwing roundels. I haven't seen any photos of 264 Sqn Defiants during the period in question so I very much doubt that we know for certain how they were marked (the change to A1 roundels was so brief that many units may not have had opportunity to implement the change).

Appreciate this was a long time ago  but was any conclusion ever reached on the individual aircraft letter carried By L7005?  I have found a high resolution copy of the photograph showing PS-X in this thread and the serial number is L7006, very clear and no doubt.  

 

I'm I'm currently building the Airfix 1/48 Defiant and want to build L7005 as the most successful Defiant but have identified the confusion over the individual letter applied to this aircraft. Looking at the 264 Sqn ORB (F541, summary) it shows L7005 and L7006 airborne at the same time on 24 Aug 40, L7005 crewed by Plt Off Young and Sgt Russell, from 1240 to 1330 and L7006 crewed by Plt Off Hackwood and Plt Off Storrie from 1130 to 1330. To my mind this rules out a transcription error in the F541.

 

the camouflage schemes on L7005 and L7006  are likely to have been "B" and A respectively and L7006 as PS-X has the very distinctive large fuselage roundel wither the wide yellow outer ring overlapping the under surface colour and the top truncated where it overlaps the rear turret fairing.

 

So, I'm certain L7005 was not coded PS-X, but don't know what it was coded? Any help appreciated.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, elanman said:

So, I'm certain L7005 was not coded PS-X, but don't know what it was coded? Any help appreciated.

Not seen him post in a while, but the chap likely to know would be @AndyL   He was/is writing a book on them.

 

On 03/02/2016 at 03:57, mhaselden said:

 

The interesting thing (to me) is the underwing roundel applied to Sky undersides. I knew, logically, that the roundels would have been applied over the "new" Sky camouflage but it's always nice to have photographic evidence.

I take it this is PS-A? 

 

Is that a Squadron Leader pennant directly below the open hood, behind 2nd chap from left in side cap.

[elanman]

42 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Not seen him post in a while, but the chap likely to know would be @AndyL   He was/is writing a book on them.

 

I take it this is PS-A? 

 

Is that a Squadron Leader pennant directly below the open hood, behind 2nd chap from left in side cap.

Thanks for the reply, I rather hope @AndyL will spot this and shed some light on this conundrum. If not I'll PM him.

 

Yes, that's definitely PS-A (quoted as L6973 in the Osprey book) and yes that's a Sqn Ldr's Pennant on the fuselage side (probably one on the other side similarly placed) This is the aircraft usually flown by the boss of 264 Sqn, Sqn Ldr Phillip Hunter, that's him by the fuselage roundel putting on his flying suit over his Service Dress. He later flew N1535, similarly marked and was KIA in this on 24 Aug 40. One of these will be my choice if unable to resolve the question about the aircraft letter on L7005.

Edited August 15, 2020 by elanman