Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Sorry to go over old ground and raise questions that have most likely been answered already but can't find what I want to know via the search function. Mostly due to my inabilities rather than any failings with said search function... Some of you may recall I was trying to build 602Sqn. Spitfire I from the Tamiya 48th scale kit as a tribute to my Grandfather who served with them as groundcrew in the early years of WWII. The project stalled due to personal reasons but I'm now trying to get it and a few others moving forward in a personal KUTA GB. It's now reached the stage where I need to find out the answer to some questions. According to SAM Publications Datafile on Merlin-engined Spitfire's 602Sqn. took delivery of the first machines at Abbotsinch during May 1939 and it's one of those I'd like to represent. Further to this the same volume has an Evaluation of Underside Colour Schemes on page 135 with plate 2 showing the initial silver underside supplemented with a white port and Night starboard wing devoid of national markings as factory finish from April 24th 1939 until a Sky finish comes in during early June 1940 as shown in plate 4. My only concern is plate 3 with full length white/Night undersurface and contrasting ailerons described as relevant from late 1938 to early 1939. This concerns me slightly as I wonder if the plate numbers are simply out of sequence or the dates are. I've seen a poor quality photo from a newspaper report (most likely in the Glasgow Herald if my memory serves but which I can no longer find) on a young man who had joined 602 Sqn. standing in front of a Spitfire that seems to show a single colour ( possibly silver) lower engine cowl with white right and Night left wing. Further to the external colours; am I correct in thinking the wheelwells, u/c legs and u/c doors are painted silver from the factory at this time? Final questions, for the moment at least, on the early machines. There is a rear facing vent shroud of similar shape but differing size on each wing at the panel next to the outer link ejector slot. Were these an addition at some time or present on the very first machines? I seem to recall seeing at least one photo of a machine without them but again can't find it now. Each link ejector slot has a small angled plate at its front to deflect the airflow and let the spent links and jackets fall away from the aircraft. Were these also present from the first machines or an addition? None of the kits I've seen represent them they are there in all the photos of the real thing. Thanks in advance gang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Sorry to go over old ground and raise questions that have most likely been answered already but can't find what I want to know via the search function. Mostly due to my inabilities rather than any failings with said search function...Some of you may recall I was trying to build 602Sqn. Spitfire I from the Tamiya 48th scale kit as a tribute to my Grandfather who served with them as groundcrew in the early years of WWII. The project stalled due to personal reasons but I'm now trying to get it and a few others moving forward in a personal KUTA GB. It's now reached the stage where I need to find out the answer to some questions. According to SAM Publications Datafile on Merlin-engined Spitfire's 602Sqn. took delivery of the first machines at Abbotsinch during May 1939 and it's one of those I'd like to represent. Further to this the same volume has an Evaluation of Underside Colour Schemes on page 135 with plate 2 showing the initial silver underside supplemented with a white port and Night starboard wing devoid of national markings as factory finish from April 24th 1939 until a Sky finish comes in during early June 1940 as shown in plate 4. My only concern is plate 3 with full length white/Night undersurface and contrasting ailerons described as relevant from late 1938 to early 1939. This concerns me slightly as I wonder if the plate numbers are simply out of sequence or the dates are. I've seen a poor quality photo from a newspaper report (most likely in the Glasgow Herald if my memory serves but which I can no longer find) on a young man who had joined 602 Sqn. standing in front of a Spitfire that seems to show a single colour ( possibly silver) lower engine cowl with white right and Night left wing. Further to the external colours; am I correct in thinking the wheelwells, u/c legs and u/c doors are painted silver from the factory at this time? It seems there was a bit of confusion as to the interpreatation of the instruction. So we see these three 602 aircraft, with just the wings in black/white (these are early 1940) http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media...-17749s-jpg.jpg and the same press call also shows this: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media...-jpg-14947.aspx and this: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media...-jpg-14946.aspx Contrasting alierons appears to be a bit of a myth - or at least the exception rather than the rule. It may be a misinterpretation of the fact that initially, the alirons were left in their aluminium finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thank you for the three photos Dave. The 2nd and 3rd I've seen but the first is new to me and you make an interesting point about the interpretation of instructions. The first photo supports that one I've seen in a newspaper cutting and is encouraging me to paint my model in that manner while the second and third show evidence of those vents on the outer wing but seem to lack the wind deflectors on the ejector slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) The underside colours were supposed to be silver, with just the wings black and white, and the colours meeting on the fuselage centre-line (the first repainted Hurricanes had only their outer wing sections painted, with the centre-section left in silver, which left Dowding seriously unimpressed.) If (big "if," since we're still not absolutely sure) the wells were painted silver and the wings painted black/white , by the factory, it's likely the wells remained silver, but, if the wings were repainted in an M.U.., the wells could have received a coat of the same colour at the same time (there's an instructional film, of a 609 Squadron Spitfire being serviced, and it's possible to see that the wells and doors (both sides) have been painted to match. The half-cones were "extractors," to draw hot air through the wing and past the Brownings; there's a photo of K5054 with them, and a gun heating system was introduced, as a modification, 26-5-38, so that's the likeliest date of their appearance. Edgar Edited July 1, 2012 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thank you Edgar I appreciate your expertise in these matters. The photos Dave has linked to seem to suggest the wells match the underside colours while the doors and legs are silver but then I suspect we enter into the realms of factory vs M.U. practice depending on how long the machine has been in service for. As I am building the 48th scale model in-flight the door and leg colours are not supercritical but the wells will still be visable. That you are saying there is no evidence for the wells having ever been painted silver during this period now convinces me staying with the relevent underside colour is by far and away the safe option and gives me a definate answer to that question. That the half-cone extractors were fitted from mid-1938 also gives me a definate answer to modelling those and I think the airstream deflectors may as well also get done at the same time. All I need to do now is get on with it! Thank you again gents and Edgar, I will be head of the queue when you decide to publish that book on the Spitfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 The underside colours were supposed to be silver, with just the wings black and white, and the colours meeting on the fuselage centre-line (the first repainted Hurricanes had only their outer wing sections painted, with the centre-section left in silver, which left Dowding seriously unimpressed.) April 1939 was when the AMO specifying the fuselage undersides to be black/white as well was published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 . That you are saying there is no evidence for the wells having ever been painted silver during this period now convinces me staying with the relevent underside colour is by far and away the safe option and gives me a definate answer to that question.I think the airstream deflectors may as well also get done at the same time. A mite too literal, there, since the evidence (i.e. the drawing) is ambiguous, at best, so "could have, might have" rules with that one. I forgot the part about the deflectors, and there was a mod, to introduce them on the IIb, Vb & Vc, 26-11-41, which rather implies that they were not fitted before, even on A wings, so I'd suggest leaving them off. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 April 1939 was when the AMO specifying the fuselage undersides to be black/white as well was published. True, but Dowding's "request" was issued 11-3-38, and covered Spitfires and Hurricanes, with immediate effect. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 True, but Dowding's "request" was issued 11-3-38, and covered Spitfires and Hurricanes, with immediate effect.Edgar Indeed, and the instruction to factories was sent January 1939 (according to Lucas, although he states that production Spitrfires didn't start appearing in the scheme until April) So anything pre-April 1939 - black/white wings with silver nose/fuselage etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 April 1939 was when the AMO specifying the fuselage undersides to be black/white as well was published. This fits well enough with my desire to model a fairly factory-fresh example early in it's time with 602 Sqn. I take it painting was done fairly late on the production line and therefore I can assume the first Spitfire's my Grandfather seen were thus finished? A mite too literal, there, since the evidence (i.e. the drawing) is ambiguous, at best, so "could have, might have" rules with that one.I forgot the part about the deflectors, and there was a mod, to introduce them on the IIb, Vb & Vc, 26-11-41, which rather implies that they were not fitted before, even on A wings, so I'd suggest leaving them off. Edgar Ha ha. As with all things about the Spitfire, or so it seems, there is sufficient variation and ambiguity to lay a minefield for the most ardent of students. Think I'll stay with the white/Night wells and take my chances but leave the deflectors off as late-1941 is outwith my timescale for this particular project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 True, but Dowding's "request" was issued 11-3-38, and covered Spitfires and Hurricanes, with immediate effect.Edgar Indeed, and the instruction to factories was sent January 1939 (according to Lucas, although he states that production Spitrfires didn't start appearing in the scheme until April)So anything pre-April 1939 - black/white wings with silver nose/fuselage etc So perhaps red-tape and bureaucracy takes account of the timescale for these changes to either come into effect or at least become official and promulgated in black-and-white to the relevant people? I've read that production of the Spitfire was hampered by many issues; could this explain the delay from January until April before machines appear out of the factory in this scheme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 There is this illustrated chart by James Goulding, but I will have to let others respond as to how accurate it is. Small photo, but clearly shows the vents present: When I built Tamiya's 1/48 kit, I just fashioned the vent from some thin brass sheet. 1. file___ 2. sand stick ___3. brass ___ 4. scriber ___ 5. blade ___ 6. finished vent regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) Pity you didn't ask this question yesterday. 3 Mk.1's flying in different schemes at Duxford today, I could have run off some shots. Edited July 1, 2012 by bentwaters81tfw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 That's an interesting chart Goulding put together and I suspect is at least part of the reference used for the schemes in the SAM Datafile. I remember seeing your model and being impressed with the work done on it Jack. Might use a version your method with the brass substituted by thin plasticard warmed in boiling water or with a heat gun. The best photo I've seen to show the vents was a cover shot on an issue of Flypast magazine some time ago but foolishly I forgot to buy it at the time Bentwaters, that I would have liked to see. Was it a good show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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