Panzerknacker - Henschel 129B-2

[Bertie McBoatface]

I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a [30mm cannon], the most powerful [airborne]gun in the world, and would blow your [turret] clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, [tank]?

I got a bit carried away there for a moment, sorry. Cracking box art though.

I will probably enjoy creating the thread with you at least as much as the modelling and would be really happy if you all felt able

to join in. (Almost) all comments are welcome here. I'm not bothered if the conversation drifts off topic. I'm certainly not bothered

by polite criticism. It's nice to get a pat on the back too, of course, but all input is valuable and helps keep up my momentum.

Don't be shy, join in!

And especially you lurkers - get registered and get posting. Come on in the water's lovely!

Edited August 4, 2012 by per ardua ad ostentationem

[Bertie McBoatface]

My entry for this most inspiring summer GB is:



It flaunts the best box art in my entire stash. Doesn't that remind you of the Victor and Hotspur comics?



This aircraft was so hard that they even had to armour the kit box to stop it escaping!



In the box I found this lovely bag of bits.



Together with some antique brass.



The brass was for the old ESCI kit but some parts are very interesting. Note the open panels!

The only downer so far is the decals/camouflage which is a bit dull.



I've also gone a bit daft at Hannants tonight and ordered a gun set, an undercarriage set, and an engine/cockpit set. I'll show you those as soon as they arrive.

I can't wait to get started. This will be a little servicing diorama staring one of my all time fave aircraft. Location? As yet undecided, but I'm leaning towards Russia or Italy. Either way, it will be a summer scene, as I've seen a lot of Knackers in the snow already. Brass monkeys?

Edited January 22, 2013 by per ardua ad ostentationem

[Parabat]

Aha, I was hoping someone would break one of these out. A very interesting and potent attacker, I'll keep my eye on this one!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

This aircraft was so hard that they even had to armour the kit box to stop it escaping!

The only downer so far is the decals/camouflage which is a bit dull.

I disagree. The 70/71 camouflage is always drab, but that's the whole point of camouflage. However, when the scheme is done properly, with the two greens close together in contrast, it can look very good. Add to that you have yellow theatre bands and a yellow chevron on the wing and that second scheme looks very interesting.

And that's one big, scary gun!

I must say that I'm looking forward to this one.

[Bertie McBoatface]

I have a problem guys.

The Hs129B-1 was definitely a CAS bird.

I quote from the History of War website

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapo...hel_hs_129.html

"In the first few years of the Second World War the Luftwaffe didn't have a dedicated ground-attack wing. The only ground attack unit was II.(Schlacht)/Lehrgeschwader 2, in theory an experimental unit, equipped with the Henschel He 123 biplane and the Bf 109. By the end of 1941 it was clear that this was not long adequate, and it was decided to form the first dedicated ground attack geschwader. II.(Schlacht)/LG 2 was withdrawn from the front at the end of 1941, and its personnel used to form Schlachtgeschwader 1. This unit was to be equipped with a mix of Bf 109s, Hs 123s and the new Hs 129, which was to equip the second group, II./Sch.G.1.

The new arrangements came into force on 13 January 1942. After a period of training it was ready to take part in the German spring offensive of 1942, which was aimed at the oil fields of the Caucasus. 4./Sch.G 1, with fifteen aircraft, was the first to be deployed to the front, leaving Germany on 26 April to take part in the advance into the Crimea, intended to protect the flank of the main thrust. 5./Sch.G 1 followed in mid May, moving to the main part of the front. The two stafflen was used to fly close support missions, attacking Russian positions just in front of the German lines. The new aircraft proved to be robust in combat, able to survive quite heavy damage, but its poor dust filters were a problem, reducing the number of serviceable aircraft."

Unfortunately the Hs129B-2 with the 30mm canon fit was a dedicated anti-tank unit.

" the B-2 could carry the 30mm Mk 101 or 103 cannon or four MG 17 machine guns under the fuselage. The cannon armed aircraft would become increasingly common during 1943, and would turn the Hs 129 from a ground-attack aircraft into a potent anti-tank weapon. The vast majority of Hs 129s produced would be B-2s."

"Early in the year the role of the Hs 129 was changed. It was now to operate behind the German lines, attacking Soviet tanks that had broken through the front line."

So it appears that this is a non-starter for this GB.

I wonder what else is in the stash...

Edited June 27, 2012 by per ardua ad ostentationem

[Col.]

Oh I dunno Don, think you still have a case to argue there, sure those Soviet tanks were pretty close to German troop while breaking through their lines

Not that I'm biased and want to see you build this one or anything you understand...

[SaintsPhil]

Granddaddy of the A-10 so surely that qualifies it...

[Bertie McBoatface]

Oh I dunno Don, think you still have a case to argue there, sure those Soviet tanks were pretty close to German troop while breaking through their lines

Not that I'm biased and want to see you build this one or anything you understand...

I'm not arguing the case one way or the other. This has to be an umpire's call.

Mish, Smutts may I please have a ruling on the eligibility of the Hs129B-2 for the CAS GB?

[Bertie McBoatface]

IN support of the CAS claim http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hs129.html has this listing but it's a generalization which misses the subtle shift in role noted on the other site. You see why I call on the mods for a decision.

Type: Close Support and ground attack aircraft

Origin: Henschel Flugwerke AG

Crew: One

Models: A & B

First Flight

Hs 129V-1: Early 1939

Hs 129B: October 1941

Service Delivery:

Hs 129A-0: Early 1941

Hs 129B: Late 1942

Final Delivery: N/A

Number Produced: 841 B-Series (879 total)

[Bertie McBoatface]

Granddaddy of the A-10 so surely that qualifies it...

Same arguments apply but in reverse. A10 Designed as anti armour but became general cas in the gulf (as did anything flying with a weapon and a radio) - Hs129 designed as CAS but too vulnerable beyond the front line so used as an anti armour backstop instead.

There are other similarities aren't there. Twin engined, armoured cockpit, big guns, low level, needed protection from enemy fighter threat, er... built in crew ladder...

[Robert Stuart]

Strikes me that anti-armour in back areas is a specialised role within the range of CAS - just my two penny worth

Of course, if you want to build something else, that's your decision

Edited June 27, 2012 by Robert Stuart

[Bertie McBoatface]

Strikes me that anti-armour in back areas is a specialised role within the range of CAS - just my two penny worth

Of course, if you want to build something else, that's your decision

I've got a Hellcat (as used in 'Flying Leathernecks').If it's good enough for John Wayne, it's good enough for me.

Seriously, if the Henschel's ruled out of the GB, I'll just build it as a WIP instead, so all this is just pre-match fannying around really. lol!

[Bertie McBoatface]

Er, it does seem to have some bombs too so perhaps it is still CAS capable?

[Parabat]

Don - you've already covered it, but I'll reiterate it -

30mm cannon

Twin engine

Armoured cockpit

Bomb carrying

Low-level attacker

This is THE grandaddy of CAS! I'm sure the A-10's designers must have drawn some inspiration from this beast!

[Bertie McBoatface]

Don - you've already covered it, but I'll reiterate it -

30mm cannon

Twin engine

Armoured cockpit

Bomb carrying

Low-level attacker

This is THE grandaddy of CAS! I'm sure the A-10's designers must have drawn some inspiration from this beast!

Except that this one was more or less 'pants', got shot down in droves and couldn't keep the engines going if it was dusty weather!

[Parabat]

Well... The A-10 had some attrition in Desert Storm. The nature of the beast?

It will still be a superb a/c to model.

The Hellcat would be good as an alternative though.

[Robert Stuart]

Wild Weasel (SEAD, Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) has been ruled in

Why would the mods rule out a potent anti-tank weapon?

[smuts]

I have a problem guys.

The Hs129B-1 was definitely a CAS bird.

I quote from the History of War website

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapo...hel_hs_129.html

"In the first few years of the Second World War the Luftwaffe didn't have a dedicated ground-attack wing. The only ground attack unit was II.(Schlacht)/Lehrgeschwader 2, in theory an experimental unit, equipped with the Henschel He 123 biplane and the Bf 109. By the end of 1941 it was clear that this was not long adequate, and it was decided to form the first dedicated ground attack geschwader. II.(Schlacht)/LG 2 was withdrawn from the front at the end of 1941, and its personnel used to form Schlachtgeschwader 1. This unit was to be equipped with a mix of Bf 109s, Hs 123s and the new Hs 129, which was to equip the second group, II./Sch.G.1.

The new arrangements came into force on 13 January 1942. After a period of training it was ready to take part in the German spring offensive of 1942, which was aimed at the oil fields of the Caucasus. 4./Sch.G 1, with fifteen aircraft, was the first to be deployed to the front, leaving Germany on 26 April to take part in the advance into the Crimea, intended to protect the flank of the main thrust. 5./Sch.G 1 followed in mid May, moving to the main part of the front. The two stafflen was used to fly close support missions, attacking Russian positions just in front of the German lines. The new aircraft proved to be robust in combat, able to survive quite heavy damage, but its poor dust filters were a problem, reducing the number of serviceable aircraft."

Unfortunately the Hs129B-2 with the 30mm canon fit was a dedicated anti-tank unit.

" the B-2 could carry the 30mm Mk 101 or 103 cannon or four MG 17 machine guns under the fuselage. The cannon armed aircraft would become increasingly common during 1943, and would turn the Hs 129 from a ground-attack aircraft into a potent anti-tank weapon. The vast majority of Hs 129s produced would be B-2s."

"Early in the year the role of the Hs 129 was changed. It was now to operate behind the German lines, attacking Soviet tanks that had broken through the front line."

So it appears that this is a non-starter for this GB.

I wonder what else is in the stash...

Hi Don glad to see one in the GB of course the 129 & variants are good to go

Granddaddy of the A-10 so surely that qualifies it...

yep it qualifies with flying colours, like you said the granddady of the Hawg

Andy.

[Bertie McBoatface]

Hi Don

...yep it qualifies...

Andy.

Splendid!

The extras arrived today from Hannants (very quick service from them and the Post Office) so I'm all set for midnight Saturday!

[Learstang]

Just to add my tuppence - I think the Hs-129 on the Eastern Front was always regarded as a close air support aircraft, big gun or no. It flew low and slow and shot at things on the ground near the front lines. Sounds like CAS to me. And the granddaddy of the A-10 was actually the Il-2 Shturmovik. The great-granddaddy was the Junkers J-1. And of course its first cousin is the Su-25 Frogfoot.

Regards,

Jason

Edited June 28, 2012 by Learstang

[Bertie McBoatface]

Right, now I'm reassured about the eligibility, I've been opening packets and boxes. The Eduard quick boost radio and gun bay and the Verlinden 'everything' pack came in about 30 hours from Hannants. Brilliant service in my opinion, from them and the PO.

I'm intending to produce something with a similar atmosphere to this photo. First line maintenance mostly with some engine rectification going on to spice things up.

Here's my serviceable donk. For use in a close cowled installation, I think it's adequate.

Here's the broken one. (I will be building it, not just throwing this lot on the ground in front of the nacelle.) It's my first resin radial and I'm horrified to see how many bits there are!

Fairies look here.

Plumbers look here.Two examples of super casting from Eduard.

I've seen the forward gun access panel opened as well. Should I risk it?

This is the Verlinden cockpit tub,

And this is Hasegawa. Was it worth it? It's a very tiny cockpit opening...

More cockpit thingies.

And new control surfaces. I'm not a big fan of displaced control surfaces. They are almost never left unlocked especially when the cab's parked outside. It only takes a little gust to blow them from lock to lock and damage the controls. However, I could have a rigger messing about with the things.

It's all very exciting.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

This is the Verlinden cockpit tub,

And this is Hasegawa. Was it worth it? It's a very tiny cockpit opening...

I once read about a refurbishment of Rheims cathedral. There were hundreds of carved wooden angels up in the roof. When these were brought down, it was found that each angel had been carved perfectly on both sides, even though only one side of each was ever visible to people looking from the ground. The people who were looking didn't know how much work had gone into them, but the artists who had carved them did and they no doubt gained a lot of satisfaction from that.

[Bertie McBoatface]

I once read about a refurbishment of Rheims cathedral. There were hundreds of carved wooden angels up in the roof. When these were brought down, it was found that each angel had been carved perfectly on both sides, even though only one side of each was ever visible to people looking from the ground. The people who were looking didn't know how much work had gone into them, but the artists who had carved them did and they no doubt gained a lot of satisfaction from that.

They carved the tops of the angels for God to look at.

[CliffB]

They carved the tops of the angels for God to look at.

Personally, I always follow the Muslim religious sculptors' 'code of practice' when making my models.....

Cliff

[Bertie McBoatface]

Personally, I always follow the Muslim religious sculptors' 'code of practice' when making my models.....

Cliff

As Michael Caine might have said, "There's not many people get that"