JackG Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 I seem to be finding two different schools of thought on panzer grey. Some are saying the grey used, in combination with the brown camou for armoured vehicles as set in 1937, stayed the same when the directive switched to just the single colour. Other sources say it was two different greys entirely. So was it just a name change for the greys causing this confusion, or was there an actual visual difference between the two? regards, Jack
alanmac Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Hi Hope this link is of help and interest. Panzer Colours Alan
JackG Posted June 26, 2012 Author Posted June 26, 2012 Alan, thanks for that! Exactly what I was looking for along with the two author/researchers I had hoped would be associated with the answer. regards, Jack
andym Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 A excellent article. Now if it would only advise us which modelling paints were the closest match for Dunkelgrau and Dunkelgelb I'd be a happy man. Andy
alanmac Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Now if it would only advise us which modelling paints were the closest match for Dunkelgrau and Dunkelgelb I'd be a happy man.Andy Hi I think on that one Andy it's just going to go round and round with each choosing what they think is the best match. It probably needs a model paint manufacturer to say "These colours match perfectly to sample colour swatches we have obtained from that period used by the authorities in WW2 Germany to check paint colour from suppliers" What's the chances of that happening Even then we have many modellers advocating "scale effect" to change the colour. Added to that the popular opinion that "it doesn't matter what the "base colour/s" are, once you start the weathering process all colours change anyway" If you embark on the quest to only paint your model once you've found the most accurate representation of Dunkelgelb then you going to end up with a whole shelf full of half made bare German WW2 plastic kits and never a finished model, and probably a sense of disappointment with a hobby and pastime that's supposed to bring pleasure, relaxation and a feeling of achievement. I seem to remember enjoying it way more as a young lad............... buying a kit in the morning and finishing it by teatime without care or worry that the manufacturer hadn't produced a accurate scale model or that without loads of work or PE etc. it wasn't going to be "worth " building. Getting back to colours, here is a site with a set of suggestions RAL colours Alan
Tiger Ausf.E Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) I put this on another Web site, but thought it may help on here aswell: I have been trying to look into ways of improving my models lately and one of the ways I thought would help would be in the painting. So if anyone can add to this please feel free to do so, after all, we can only improve! Obviously how you paint your model really decides whether it will live or die, realism is only a paint colour away. For example, you have King Tiger painted fararri red and title it "Russian front 1945" it is not going to matter one bit if you have all the tiny details correct, the model will be judged by the colour of the paint. This got me to thinking about the paints issued by the various hobby suppliers themselves. If you look at your painting instructions on model kits you will always see that they recommend various colours from various manufacturers. Why is this? O.k, So we understand that Tamiya would recommend Tamiya paints, why would Revell recommend Humbrol? Or Dragon recommend Gunze Sangyo? Puzzling one at that! Another point is this; where do the companies get their interpretation of colours from? A startling fact is that many get their ideas from Museums and from photographs, matching up the colour from Film or photos. Now anyone who knows anything will know that you cannot use a photograph of a tank to justify you saying that this is the real colour or what colour was what in Black and white films or photos. It seems that the only correct way to interpret the colours is to read the "Heer memorandum" that gives orders in regards to colours that should be used and when! But then again, this does not say what shade RAL 8017 was! What makes it more confusing is that Tamiya once visited the Patton museum in America and got permision to take of the overspray the museum staff had put on to an SDKFZ 251. They found that the Dunkelgelb was 5 different shades! So Tamiya based their XF60 (Dark Yellow) on the mid shade. So theoretically the Tamiya shade of Dunkelgelb should be the most valid? But it gets worse! Historically RAL 6003 (OliveGrun) Ral 8017 (Braune) and RAL 8002 (Signalbraune) were supplied in 5 kilo tins in paste concentrate for dilution by tank crews.This could be acheived with water, Oil , Petrol or water, indeed in one case urine! The final intensity of colour depended on the dilution, so RAL 6003 (olivegrun) could appear almost black if undiluted and pea green if diluted too much. Another factor to consider aswell is that many paints are based on 1/1 scale colours, ie, the real thing. Many modellers will dilute the colour with as much as 25% whit in order to lighten the colour and make it more scale effective. Most German AFV's were fitted with compressors so that spray guns could be used to paint the vehicle. So most German vehicles were Spray painted in the field. (Though the Ambush scheme was applied by hand.) Although all model companies have advised what colour paints should be used, and whos to use only two companies have researched the subject thouroughly and from the right source. These Companies are Gunze Sangyo from Japan and also Hannants from England. In May 1991 both pooled resources and approached the RAL Deutches Institut Fur Gutesicherund Und Kennzeichung e.V. (loosely translated "The German institute of Quality control and Identification) It was founded in 1925 and and is funded by the German chemical industry. This is the equivalent of the British Standards or the U.S Federal Color Standards. Not only did Hannants ad Gunze receive comprehensive information on the chronological introduction and deletion of second world war colours but were also given authentic paint chips. From these Chips Hannants produced the full 10 shades. Gunze a few less. Funnily enough "Denkelgelb" the most important colour 1943 onwards does not have an RAL number! The paint chip supplied by RAL is often claimed to be too dark or too olive. So, if you are interested in painting your wagon the correct shades for an added air of authenticity here are the colours and Hannants codes in brackets) for you: RAL 7016 Anthrazitgrau (X802) Used by Luftwaffe ground forces (Herman Goerring division) RAL 7008 Khakibruan (X804) Used by Afrikacorp and in crete 1941. No Official RAL description of colour. Used in conjunction with RAL 8000 Ral 7027 (x809) Used by Afrikacorp after 1941. Again no official RAL description of colour. used in conjunction with RAL8020. RAL 6003 Olivgrun (X806) Used in conjunction with RAL 8017 and RAL Dunkelgelb. RAL 8002 Signalbraun (X801) used in conjunction with RAL 7021 especially before 1939. RAL 8000 Grunbraun (X803) Used by Afrikacorpand in crete 1941. No official RAL Description of colour used in conjunction with RAL7027 RAL 8020 (X808) used by Afrikacorp after 1941. No official description of colour used in conjunction with RAL 7027 Dunkelgelb (X805) used as standard colour from Feb 1943. No official RAL number, used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and RAL 8017 RAL 8017 Braune (X807) Used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and Dunkelgelb. In regards to the panzer grey, this would be exactly the same, ie: the level of dilution would dictate the colour of the final finish. You can try this at home, get some paint paste and mix it with a bit of oil (early in the war Germans would use waste oil to dilute paint, or petrol and this would give a durable finish that did not fade in the rain. However later in the war they used water more and this led to finishes that could fade, chip or wear away........Hence why white wash is always grubby!) from a car or such, then mix it with water. You will soon notice how you get a different shade of Panzer grey, depending on 1: what you use to dilute, 2 how much of it yoy used and 3 how thickly it was applied over the vehicle. I hope this helps. Edited June 26, 2012 by Tiger Ausf.E
JackG Posted June 26, 2012 Author Posted June 26, 2012 Very interesting read and thanks for posting. Unless I'm miss-understanding the last paragraph about the panzer grey, I was under the impression this was factory applied to all vehicles (and equipment) and hence would not be mixed in the field and applied by troops. Hmm... more questions now. Did the July 31st 1940 document call the cease in the application of the brown, or also a repaint of grey to cover up the brown? I suppose in the latter case it would be easier for field workshops to do this instead of hauling them back to the factories. regards, Jack
Tiger Ausf.E Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) Hi Jack. Thanks for the positive reply. I have put on a set of pics with the panzer grey, brown camo on here and will repost them on here for reference. The Panzer grey/ brown camoflauge was not widely applied to vehicles. However even with the factory camo you would get variations on a theme as different sprayers, different techniques, this is then confounded further by environmental variations, for example, Southern Russia has a different climate to Northern Russia. Southern Russia has a hotter climate and Northern Russia has a colder almost artic environment. Obviously this weathers the paint differently and would produce a different shade. Not to mention the colour of the dust/mud that would also affect the shade of panzer grey. For example, look at the colour of Panzers in france as to those in Northern Russia, or even southern Russia. Then, as you said. Field workshops repainting vehicles would have a shade different to that at the factory. In regards to repainting the vehicles, I do not think that with the ever increasing demands of the eastern front the germans would have the luxury of being able to recall vehicles to repaint them or get rid of old camoflague then put them back in the field, especially if it is fully useable and running. (read a book called "War without Garlands" You will be amazed at how far the germans got with what they had!) Even in July 1941, they would not have had the luxury of a chance to rehaul the fleet not with Grece, Th ebalkans etc... kicking off. I think a process of natural elimination would have thinned out the ranks of the red brown/ panzer grey camo. However the one here was captured in Tunisia in 1943 and you can that the camo is still there. I hope this gives you a bit more info. Pzkpfw II in Tunisia 1942/3: Edited June 26, 2012 by Tiger Ausf.E
andym Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the reply, some useful stuff there, especially with regard to the Hannants paints which I have seen roundly condemned as innacurate elsewhere. I'm well aware of the effects of paint dilution in real life as well as the modelling effects of scale colour, weathering, filters etc. I just thought it would be nice to have a relative accurate base colour to start with having seen too many mid-blue-grey or yellow panzers which just look wrong. I've always thought of Dunkelgrau as a very dark grey and Dunkelgelb as a tan colour it's just trying to pin them down a bit more that's the problem. I've never liked Tamiya XF 60 as I think it is far too green , I have been using Humbrol HU93 for Dunkelgelb but not sure if it's a bit too yellow? For Dunkelgrau I have found the Vallejo 995 German Grey or 086 Black-Grey as good starting points. All comments welcome. HTH Andy Edited June 26, 2012 by andym
andym Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Jack.Thanks for the positive reply. I have put on a set of pics with the panzer grey, brown camo on here and will repost them on here for reference. The Panzer grey/ brown camoflauge was not widely applied to vehicles. However even with the factory camo you would get variations on a theme as different sprayers, different techniques, this is then confounded further by environmental variations, for example, Southern Russia has a different climate to Northern Russia. Southern Russia has a hotter climate and Northern Russia has a colder almost artic environment. Obviously this weathers the paint differently and would produce a different shade. Not to mention the colour of the dust/mud that would also affect the shade of panzer grey. For example, look at the colour of Panzers in france as to those in Northern Russia, or even southern Russia. Then, as you said. Field workshops repainting vehicles would have a shade different to that at the factory. In regards to repainting the vehicles, I do not think that with the ever increasing demands of the eastern front the germans would have the luxury of being able to recall vehicles to repaint them or get rid of old camoflague then put them back in the field, especially if it is fully useable and running. (read a book called "War without Garlands" You will be amazed at how far the germans got with what they had!) Even in July 1941, they would not have had the luxury of a chance to rehaul the fleet not with Grece, Th ebalkans etc... kicking off. I think a process of natural elimination would have thinned out the ranks of the red brown/ panzer grey camo. However the one here was captured in Tunisia in 1943 and you can that the camo is still there. I hope this gives you a bit more info. Pzkpfw II in Tunisia 1942/3: Isn't this vehicle a post war repaint to represent a Battle Of France tank. I think it was built in 1942 which would make it too late for Dunkelbraun to feature? Andy
Tiger Ausf.E Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Andy, the PZKPFW tank you see in the pics was captured in Tunisia in 1943.
alanmac Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Andy, the PZKPFW tank you see in the pics was captured in Tunisia in 1943. Are you saying then that this is the original paintwork?
andym Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Are you saying then that this is the original paintwork? Not original paintwork, have a read here: http://tankmuseum.org/ixbin/indexplus?_IXF...wagen+II+Ausf+F It's clear it's a repaint. HTH Andy
alanmac Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Hi Andy thanks for the link, my post was actually directed at Tiger Ausf. E, (real human being name would be good). It certainly not only clears up your post but makes me wonder how one of the leading Tank museums in the world comes to make such decisions, to paint it in a scheme and markings that represent it in a period before it was even manufactured. That and the current colour scheme of the Jagdtiger Alan
andym Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Hi Andythanks for the link, my post was actually directed at Tiger Ausf. E, (real human being name would be good). It certainly not only clears up your post but makes me wonder how one of the leading Tank museums in the world comes to make such decisions, to paint it in a scheme and markings that represent it in a period before it was even manufactured. That and the current colour scheme of the Jagdtiger Alan Its nothing unusual, museums worldwide are filled with armour and aircraft in unrepresentative and down right wrong colour schemes as well as inaccurate replacement parts, just makes trying to get an accurate model harder. And don't get me started on warbirds I still shiver at the thought of the "Red Bull" Sea Vixen. Andy
Tiger Ausf.E Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 AndyM, I did not say it was not a repaint, I simply stated that it was captured in Tunisia in 1943. When i said, "However the one here was captured in Tunisia in 1943 and you can that the camo is still there. I hope this gives you a bit more info." I was implying that the red/brown and panzer grey had been applied, so the whole concept of the camo is still around today. To think the original camo would look that good after so long would just be ludicrous in the extreme! If I have to watch myself and safeguard everything I say for fear of point scoring sessions then that is pretty sad. This has happened on other posts, where I have simply put up pics of something and got a couple of snidey remarks and even a couple of PM's that were rather arragant. Even one saying that The pictures of the Tiger exausts had been touched up by myself in a photoshop type way!!!!!!! However it is a good indication of what I stated in my post about environmental effects on PG, look at picture 3 and you will see that it looks like there are 2 shades of PG this is due to the dust, and you can see this, but from further back you would think it 2 different shades of grey.
andym Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 AndyM, I did not say it was not a repaint, I simply stated that it was captured in Tunisia in 1943.When i said, "However the one here was captured in Tunisia in 1943 and you can that the camo is still there. I hope this gives you a bit more info." I was implying that the red/brown and panzer grey had been applied, so the whole concept of the camo is still around today. To think the original camo would look that good after so long would just be ludicrous in the extreme! If I have to watch myself and safeguard everything I say for fear of point scoring sessions then that is pretty sad. This has happened on other posts, where I have simply put up pics of something and got a couple of snidey remarks and even a couple of PM's that were rather arragant. Even one saying that The pictures of the Tiger exausts had been touched up by myself in a photoshop type way!!!!!!! However it is a good indication of what I stated in my post about environmental effects on PG, look at picture 3 and you will see that it looks like there are 2 shades of PG this is due to the dust, and you can see this, but from further back you would think it 2 different shades of grey. I wasn't critcising you, I was basically saying you can't take most museum examples as indicative of how the wartime vehicles looked in either colour or pattern. Andy
Wayne rc Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 I have heard that the pre war panzer grey was darker, softskins usually had an eggshell almost satin finish. Dunkelgelb was very varied, from almost buff to yellow. As has been said weathering will obscure the actual shade anyway. I have heard that many pz grey vehicles were painted over with a mud slurry, esp in Africa.
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