Spitfire Landing Gear Oleos

[Daniel Cox]

Doug -

Having looked at THOUSANDS of Spitfire pictures I would say that any Spit from 1943 would NOT have the oleo links. I only see them in pics from early 1945 onward.

Would love to see a picture of your model of JF472. Are you using our decals?

Jonathan @ fundekals.com

Hello Jonathan,

You are mistaken in your assertion that any Spitfire during 1943 “would Not have oleo links” since some did as evidenced below.

The British Air Ministry seemed to believe that torque/torsion links were available and or in use on some Mk. V and later type Spitfires during 1943 and beyond, as evidenced in italics below from a British Air Ministry postagram dated on the 7th of April 1943, Reference S. 84993/II/S.M.8;

Spitfire and Seafire (All Marks) – Servicing of

Undercarriage Oleo Struts Special Instruction S.M./194.

Further to Special Instruction SM/160 issued under Air Minstry postagram S.84993/S.M.8. dated 12/Jan./43, the quality of oil blown out (para.3 (vii)) will vary with the different types of oleo struts fitted as detailed hereunder.

0 Type 91244/L is type 91244 converted to torsion link type for fitment in embodiment of Spitfire Mod. 838 (VII & VIII), Mod. 832 (VC, IX, XII, XIII) and Seafire Mod. 110.

• Type 91986 is the new design production torsion link type for the above modifications.

2. The type of oleo strut fitted may be identified by the Vickers part number borne on the instruction plate on the strut.

The above-mentioned postagram was distributed to the following during April of 1943;

Army Co-Operation, Coastal, Fighter, Flying Training, Maintenance Commands, Middle East, West Africa, India, Iraq, Malta, N.W. Africa, Mediterranean Commands. (1 copy each Air and Sea Mail).

41, 43, 44 Groups.

Handling Squadron, Hullavington.

Copies to:- S.M.1 (a) (1)

A.L.O. R.A.A.F. (2)

R.F.L.7. (2)

R.T.P.14. (1)

R.T.P.16. (1)

R.M.4. (1)

E.23. (1)

R.D.A.Defects (30)

Also drawn from S. 84993/II/S.M.8.

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 90273: Spitfire I, II, VI

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91244: Spitfire VA, VB, VC, XIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91244/L: Spitfire VC, IX, XI, XII, XIII / Seafire II, III*

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91545: Spitfire VII, VIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91901: Spitfire VA, VB, VC, VII, VIII, IX, XI, XII, XIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91986: Spitfire VC, VII, VIII, IX, XI, XII / Seafire II, III

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91776: Spitfire XXI

* Type 91244/L is type 91244 converted to torsion link type for fitment in embodiment of Spitfire Mod. 838 (VII & VIII), Mod. 832 (VC, IX, XII, XIII) and Seafire Mod. 110.

Another British Air Ministry document dated on the 28th of June 1943, Reference A.163676/41/S.M.8. identifies Spitfire Main Undercarriage Oleo Struts as follows;

Spitfire FI Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FIIA Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FIIB Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVA Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVB Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVB TROP. Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVC Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FVC TROP. Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FVI Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVII Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FVIII Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FVIII TROP. Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FIX Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FXII Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire PRIV Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire PRVII Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire PRXI Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire PRXIII Oleo Strut Type 90273

Also worth noting is the fact that Australia was receiving Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft from 25 October 1943 with Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo Struts as evidenced below in italics from a RAAF Directorate of Technical Services report dated 28 October 1943;

Undercarriage

Struts are type 91901 with torque links instead of splined ram as on V.C No bronze bushes.

Undercarriage operation system same as V.C but leg locking pins are now steel instead of bronze which should be an improvement.

Main tyres are 7.50 x 10½" 1 K 13

Wheels are different type to V.C

Brakes are a different type to V.C

Brakes are a different size VIII 8-7/16 x 2-11/16"

V.C 9" x 2"

It is worth noting that some RAAF Spitfire Mk. Vc Trop. aircraft even had Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo Struts as recorded in October of 1944 within the RAAF Technical Order, Spitfire Instruction No. 23, that lists both Type 91244 and 91244/L Oleo Struts being used. All Type 91244/L Struts featured Torque/Torsion Links!

So in the face of the evidence I have already previously posted in this thread and have again reiterated above, it is erroneous to suggest that the above did not occur at all in 1943.

Then there are the photographs, on examining various extant and available images of Spitfire aircraft it is not unknown to see on occasion visible Torque/Torsion Links fitted to Spitfires especially during 1944. It is also worth noting that the Torque/Torsion Links on some Oleo Struts on Spitfires also appeared on the aft side of the oleo strut as opposed to the more familiar forward side. Most Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft had Link Type Struts either forward or aft located types; the exception appears to be the earliest of Mk. VIII’s that operated in Italy for example. These very early Mk. VIII’s can be easily identified by the absence of the Mk. XII rudder. Of course one seldom sees where visible Torque/Torsion Link fitted struts on Spitfire Mk. IX aircraft during 1943 and 1944.

I like you, have examined Spitfire pictures (although I will not claim to have examined thousands), much of what I have examined includes hi-res scans from the negs or slides themselves. I also have in a number of instances handled and examined original Second World War nitrate negatives that show Spitfire aircraft.

Also (although I have not done it yet since I haven't had the time) I will be examining a number of unrestored Spitfire oleo struts of various types to further investigate Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo struts relating specifically to Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft.

Here is a short and far from exhaustive sample list of some identifiable by serial number Spitfire aircraft that were photographed before 1945 featuring visible Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo struts;

Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe RK889

Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe PV293

Spitfire LF. Mk. VIIIc JG652 A58-480

Spitfire LF. Mk. VIIIc MT618 A58-518

Spitfire HF. Mk. VIIIc MT834 A58-615

There are other extant and available pictures from 1944 that show Spitfires that cannot be identified by serial number fitted with visible Torque/Torsion Links. They are mostly Mk. VIII and XIV Spitfires. In 1945 the Torque/Torsion Links are also seen in addition to the types previously mentioned when visible on Mk. XVI’s and some IXe’s.

From my own research the only reasonable conclusion I can draw based upon the examination of various Primary Source Documents from the British Air Ministry, Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force is that some (which included the Mk. VIII type) and not most Spitfires were fitted with Oleo Struts that featured Torque/Torsion Links during 1943 and 1944.

From your assertions based upon “Having looked at THOUSANDS of Spitfire pictures” the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that of those indeterminate thousands of Spitfire pictures you have looked at. They unfortunately did not number some of the Spitfire pictures that I have found that show visible Torque/Torsion Links on Spitfires before 1945.

So in summary it is unlikely that the Spitfire JF472 had Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943. That said some Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft featured Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943. It is also factually wrong to suggest that no Spitfire aircraft had Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943.

Cheers,

Daniel.

A Very Limited Bibliography

National Archives of Australia (Mtchell, ACT)

Series No: A705

9/41/74: Spitfire Aircraft General Technical File

9/53/1/Part 1: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Aircraft – General Defect File

9/53/27: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Aircraft – Performance comparison – tropical and non-tropical types

9/53/74: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Mark VIII – General Technical File

9/53/102: Directorate of Equipment & Administration – Items necessary to ensure operational completeness – Spitfire aircraft

150/4/5438: Publication of Technical Order Spitfire Instruction No 19 “Undercarriage Operation and Maintenance

Series No: A10297

Block 370: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-300 to A58-399

Block 371: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-400 to A58-499

Block 372: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-500 to A58-550

Block 373: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-600 to A58-699

Block 374: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-700 to A58-758

Series No: A11093

452/A58/Part 1: RAAF Command Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft – A58

452/A58/Part 2: RAAF Command Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft – A58

Series No: A11098

241/7/6/ENG: RAAF Command Advanced Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft A58

Photographs

Imperial War Museum (London)

CH 18184

Australian War Memorial (Campbell, ACT)

OG1973

OG2365

OG2368

OG3006

OG3007

NWA0931

P02056.001

P02482.011

SEA0064

SEA0189

SUK12927

SUK14380

UK2745

Books

Carter, Ian, Fighter Command 1939-45, Ian Allen, Hersham, 2002.

Humphreys, Robert. The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 1: Merlin Powered, SAM, Bedford, 2000.

Humphreys, Robert. The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 2: Griffon-Powered, SAM, Bedford, 2001.

Kořán, František. Danda, Vladimír. Martínek, Josef. Khol, Miroslav. Spitfire LF.Mk.IX in detail, WWP, Prague, 2002.

Matusiak, Wojtek. Polskie Skrzydła 13, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1942-1943, Stratus, Sandomierz, 2011.

Matusiak, Wojtek. Polskie Skrzydła 15, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1944-1946, Stratus, Sandomierz, 2012.

Morgan, Eric. Shacklady, Edward. Spitfire The History, Key, Horsell, New Milton, 1999.

Monforton, Paul. H. Spitfire Mk. IX & XVI: Engineered, Monforton, Ottawa, 2007.

Moss, Graham. McKee, Barry. Spitfires and Polished Metal, Restoring the Classic Fighter, Airlife, Shrewsbury, 1999.

Nohara, S., Ohasato, H. Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I-V: Aero Detail 8, Dainippon,

Tokyo, 1993.

Ohasato, H., Yamada, Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire Mk.VI-XVI: Aero Detail 27, Dainippon,

Tokyo 2000.

Price, Alfred. Dr. Late Marque, Spitfire Aces 1942-45, Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 5, Osprey, London, 1995.

Scutts, Jerry. Spitfire in Action, Aircraft No. 39 Squadron/Signal, Carrollton, 1980.

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume One, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2004

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Two, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2005

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Three, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2006

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Four, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2008

Smith, Frank., Malone, Peter. Spitfire Markings of the RAAF, Pacific Area 1944-45, Part 2, Kookaburra, Dandenong, 1971.

Wilson, Stewart. The Spitfire, Mustang and Kittyhawk in Australian Service, Aerospace, circa 1989.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Daniel Cox

[wally7506]

Hello Jonathon,

You are mistaken in your assertion that any Spitfire during 1943 “would Not have oleo links” since some did as evidenced below.

The British Air Ministry seemed to believe that torque/torsion links were available and or in use on some Mk. V and later type Spitfires during 1943 and beyond, as evidenced in italics below from a British Air Ministry postagram dated on the 7th of April 1943, Reference S. 84993/II/S.M.8;

Spitfire and Seafire (All Marks) – Servicing of

Undercarriage Oleo Struts Special Instruction S.M./194.

Further to Special Instruction SM/160 issued under Air Minstry postagram S.84993/S.M.8. dated 12/Jan./43, the quality of oil blown out (para.3 (vii)) will vary with the different types of oleo struts fitted as detailed hereunder.

0 Type 91244/L is type 91244 converted to torsion link type for fitment in embodiment of Spitfire Mod. 838 (VII & VIII), Mod. 832 (VC, IX, XII, XIII) and Seafire Mod. 110.

• Type 91986 is the new design production torsion link type for the above modifications.

2. The type of oleo strut fitted may be identified by the Vickers part number borne on the instruction plate on the strut.

The above-mentioned postagram was distributed to the following during April of 1943;

Army Co-Operation, Coastal, Fighter, Flying Training, Maintenance Commands, Middle East, West Africa, India, Iraq, Malta, N.W. Africa, Mediterranean Commands. (1 copy each Air and Sea Mail).

41, 43, 44 Groups.

Handling Squadron, Hullavington.

Copies to:- S.M.1 (a) (1)

A.L.O. R.A.A.F. (2)

R.F.L.7. (2)

R.T.P.14. (1)

R.T.P.16. (1)

R.M.4. (1)

E.23. (1)

R.D.A.Defects (30)

Also drawn from S. 84993/II/S.M.8.

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 90273: Spitfire I, II, VI

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91244: Spitfire VA, VB, VC, XIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91244/L: Spitfire VC, IX, XI, XII, XIII / Seafire II, III*

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91545: Spitfire VII, VIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91901: Spitfire VA, VB, VC, VII, VIII, IX, XI, XII, XIII

Oleo Strut (Link Type) Type 91986: Spitfire VC, VII, VIII, IX, XI, XII / Seafire II, III

Oleo Strut (Splined Ram) Type 91776: Spitfire XXI

* Type 91244/L is type 91244 converted to torsion link type for fitment in embodiment of Spitfire Mod. 838 (VII & VIII), Mod. 832 (VC, IX, XII, XIII) and Seafire Mod. 110.

Another British Air Ministry document dated on the 28th of June 1943, Reference A.163676/41/S.M.8. identifies Spitfire Main Undercarriage Oleo Struts as follows;

Spitfire FI Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FIIA Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FIIB Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVA Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVB Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVB TROP. Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVC Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FVC TROP. Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FVI Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire FVII Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FVIII Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FVIII TROP. Oleo Strut Types 91545, 91901

Spitfire FIX Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire FXII Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire PRIV Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire PRVII Oleo Strut Type 90273

Spitfire PRXI Oleo Strut Types 91244, 91901

Spitfire PRXIII Oleo Strut Type 90273

Also worth noting is the fact that Australia was receiving Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft from 25 October 1943 with Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo Struts as evidenced below in italics from a RAAF Directorate of Technical Services report dated 28 October 1943;

Undercarriage

Struts are type 91901 with torque links instead of splined ram as on V.C No bronze bushes.

Undercarriage operation system same as V.C but leg locking pins are now steel instead of bronze which should be an improvement.

Main tyres are 7.50 x 10½" 1 K 13

Wheels are different type to V.C

Brakes are a different type to V.C

Brakes are a different size VIII 8-7/16 x 2-11/16"

V.C 9" x 2"

It is worth noting that some RAAF Spitfire Mk. Vc Trop. aircraft even had Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo Struts as recorded in October of 1944 within the RAAF Technical Order, Spitfire Instruction No. 23, that lists both Type 91244 and 91244/L Oleo Struts being used. All Type 91244/L Struts featured Torque/Torsion Links!

So in the face of the evidence I have already previously posted in this thread and have again reiterated above, it is erroneous to suggest that the above did not occur at all in 1943.

Then there are the photographs, on examining various extant and available images of Spitfire aircraft it is not unknown to see on occasion visible Torque/Torsion Links fitted to Spitfires especially during 1944. It is also worth noting that the Torque/Torsion Links on some Oleo Struts on Spitfires also appeared on the aft side of the oleo strut as opposed to the more familiar forward side. Most Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft had Link Type Struts either forward or aft located types; the exception appears to be the earliest of Mk. VIII’s that operated in Italy for example. These very early Mk. VIII’s can be easily identified by the absence of the Mk. XII rudder. Of course one seldom sees where visible Torque/Torsion Link fitted struts on Spitfire Mk. IX aircraft during 1943 and 1944.

I like you, have examined Spitfire pictures (although I will not claim to have examined thousands), much of what I have examined includes hi-res scans from the negs or slides themselves. I also have in a number of instances handled and examined original Second World War nitrate negatives that show Spitfire aircraft.

Also (although I have not done it yet since I haven't had the time) I will be examining a number of unrestored Spitfire oleo struts of various types to further investigate Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo struts relating specifically to Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft.

Here is a short and far from exhaustive sample list of some identifiable by serial number Spitfire aircraft that were photographed before 1945 featuring visible Torque/Torsion Link fitted Oleo struts;

Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe RK889

Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe PV293

Spitfire LF. Mk. VIIIc JG652 A58-480

Spitfire LF. Mk. VIIIc MT618 A58-518

Spitfire HF. Mk. VIIIc MT834 A58-615

There are other extant and available pictures from 1944 that show Spitfires that cannot be identified by serial number fitted with visible Torque/Torsion Links. They are mostly Mk. VIII and XIV Spitfires. In 1945 the Torque/Torsion Links are also seen in addition to the types previously mentioned when visible on Mk. XVI’s and some IXe’s.

From my own research the only reasonable conclusion I can draw based upon the examination of various Primary Source Documents from the British Air Ministry, Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force is that some (which included the Mk. VIII type) and not most Spitfires were fitted with Oleo Struts that featured Torque/Torsion Links during 1943 and 1944.

From your assertions based upon “Having looked at THOUSANDS of Spitfire pictures” the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that of those indeterminate thousands of Spitfire pictures you have looked at. They unfortunately did not number some of the Spitfire pictures that I have found that show visible Torque/Torsion Links on Spitfires before 1945.

So in summary it is unlikely that the Spitfire JF472 had Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943. That said some Spitfire Mk. VIII aircraft featured Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943. It is also factually wrong to suggest that no Spitfire aircraft had Torque/Torsion Link Oleo Struts during 1943.

Cheers,

Daniel.

A Very Limited Bibliography

National Archives of Australia (Mtchell, ACT)

Series No: A705

9/41/74: Spitfire Aircraft General Technical File

9/53/1/Part 1: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Aircraft – General Defect File

9/53/27: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Aircraft – Performance comparison – tropical and non-tropical types

9/53/74: Directorate of Technical Services - Spitfire Mark VIII – General Technical File

9/53/102: Directorate of Equipment & Administration – Items necessary to ensure operational completeness – Spitfire aircraft

150/4/5438: Publication of Technical Order Spitfire Instruction No 19 “Undercarriage Operation and Maintenance

Series No: A10297

Block 370: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-300 to A58-399

Block 371: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-400 to A58-499

Block 372: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-500 to A58-550

Block 373: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-600 to A58-699

Block 374: Aircraft Status Cards – Spitfire A58-700 to A58-758

Series No: A11093

452/A58/Part 1: RAAF Command Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft – A58

452/A58/Part 2: RAAF Command Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft – A58

Series No: A11098

241/7/6/ENG: RAAF Command Advanced Headquarters – Spitfire Aircraft A58

Photographs

Imperial War Museum (London)

CH 18184

Australian War Memorial (Campbell, ACT)

OG1973

OG2365

OG2368

OG3006

OG3007

NWA0931

P02056.001

P02482.011

SEA0064

SEA0189

SUK12927

SUK14380

UK2745

Books

Carter, Ian, Fighter Command 1939-45, Ian Allen, Hersham, 2002.

Humphreys, Robert. The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 1: Merlin Powered, SAM, Bedford, 2000.

Humphreys, Robert. The Supermarine Spitfire, Part 2: Griffon-Powered, SAM, Bedford, 2001.

Kořán, František. Danda, Vladimír. Martínek, Josef. Khol, Miroslav. Spitfire LF.Mk.IX in detail, WWP, Prague, 2002.

Matusiak, Wojtek. Polskie Skrzydła 13, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1942-1943, Stratus, Sandomierz, 2011.

Matusiak, Wojtek. Polskie Skrzydła 15, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1944-1946, Stratus, Sandomierz, 2012.

Morgan, Eric. Shacklady, Edward. Spitfire The History, Key, Horsell, New Milton, 1999.

Monforton, Paul. H. Spitfire Mk. IX & XVI: Engineered, Monforton, Ottawa, 2007.

Moss, Graham. McKee, Barry. Spitfires and Polished Metal, Restoring the Classic Fighter, Airlife, Shrewsbury, 1999.

Nohara, S., Ohasato, H. Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I-V: Aero Detail 8, Dainippon,

Tokyo, 1993.

Ohasato, H., Yamada, Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire Mk.VI-XVI: Aero Detail 27, Dainippon,

Tokyo 2000.

Price, Alfred. Dr. Late Marque, Spitfire Aces 1942-45, Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 5, Osprey, London, 1995.

Scutts, Jerry. Spitfire in Action, Aircraft No. 39 Squadron/Signal, Carrollton, 1980.

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume One, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2004

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Two, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2005

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Three, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2006

Shores, Christopher. Thomas, Chris. 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume Four, Classic, Dorset, Hampshire, 2008

Smith, Frank., Malone, Peter. Spitfire Markings of the RAAF, Pacific Area 1944-45, Part 2, Kookaburra, Dandenong, 1971.

Wilson, Stewart. The Spitfire, Mustang and Kittyhawk in Australian Service, Aerospace, circa 1989.

I appreciate the level of research that has gone into locating orders for such an animal.

Now, go back and find a picture ... dated from 1943 ... that actually SHOWS the scissors on a Spitfire (not Seafire) from 1943 ... or 1944 even.

There are some pictures above ... FROM THE SERIAL BLOCKS YOU MENTIONED ... that show CLEARLY a) no scissors and standard wheel cover to match

i'll rest there

[Test Graham]

I think 1943's a very difficult challenge, in view of the brief time span and the lack of decent photos of the rear of the oleo on any Spitfire. Wartime photos generally don't go in for the detailed modeller's walkarounds that would show detail in such a position. You may well have seen thousands of Spitfire photos, as probably have I in my time, although I wonder just how many of those thousands you have specifically checked before making such a dogmatic statement? I suspect you'd have equal difficulty finding a photo of that period that clearly portrayed an aircraft from those serial blocks in 1943 without such links. Front links, ok if later, but rear ones?

However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Given the number of aircraft produced, any lack of photos is not proof such a fitting did not exist. Even a glut of good clear dated photos showing a lack of the same would be only reasonably convincing on a balance of probabilities.

Can I suggest, based on the list above, if they are to be found on any Spitfire they'll be found on the Mk.XII, which should reduce the amount of searching to a manageable amount?

[wally7506]

Hi Doug,

One more thing worth noting about JF472 is that if you are using fündekals decals for your model they are probably incorrect regarding their depiction of the colours of the aircraft codes for JF472. On examination of various extant hi-res colour and black & white images of 145 Squadron Spitfire Mk. IX and Mk. VIII aircraft during 1943 that can be purchased as downloads from the Imperial War Museum. It is likely that JF472 wore blue codes with white surrounds as opposed to black ones with white surrounds.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Please sir, before you defame our products please look at them CARFEFULLY. We have depicted the codes on ZX-J as ROUNDEL BLUE ... not BLACK as you have stated.

Edited June 23, 2012 by wally7506

[Test Graham]

1944 turned out to be quite easy, the second book I looked in. "91 Nigeria Squadron" by Peter Hall, p99. Spitfire Mk.XIV RB188, the mount of Flt. Lt. Johnny Johnson (not that one!) photographed in July 1944. Forward-mounted links, so by all accounts the aft-mounted ones predated these. I also found them on a Mk.XVI in "Spitfire The History", but 1944 or '45 production I didn't check.

As I suspected, I couldn't find a single photo that showed the rear of the oleo clearly enough to tell whether a link was there or not, but there are after all many more photos to go through.

[Daniel Cox]

Please sir, before you defame our products please look at them CARFEFULLY. We have depicted the codes on ZX-J as ROUNDEL BLUE ... not BLACK as you have stated.

Hi Jonathan,

Doug had already corrected me on this and I acknowledged that earlier in this thread, I stated the codes looked black since they looked black on this image here although as Doug had already indicated they were in fact blue. Based upon the appearance of the codes in that image I stated that "they are probably incorrect regarding their depiction of the colours" I used the caveat probably, I did not state they were likely, highly likely or certain to be incorrect. Which if they were black it probably was incorrect. Of course I do acknowledge that they could be black or red or another colour since JF472 as seen in extant photographs is captured in Black & White that is why I used the caveat probably.

So after now looking at them "CAREFULLY" on your .pdf document of the decal instructions for JF472 and also acknowledging your statement that you have depicted the codes in "ROUNDEL BLUE", plus after examining various images such as those listed below;

Imperial War Museum (London)

CNA 1013

CNA 1978

CNA 1979

CNA 4542

NA 4296

TR 1008

I feel obliged to change my assessment of your depiction of the code colours for your decal sheet depicting JF472.

My new assessment is that the fündekals depiction of the squadron and aircraft codes for JF472 are highly likely to be incorrect i.e. they are unlikely to be ROUNDEL BLUE (see below for an example).

Shown below is a former 145 Squadron RAF Spitfire Mk. IX aircraft EN459, that still displays its former users codes;

Now back to Torque/Torsion Link Type Oleo Struts I have not suggested that many or all Spitfires had them during 1943 in fact my assesment is only that some did and not most.

I appreciate the level of research that has gone into locating orders for such an animal.

Now, go back and find a picture ... dated from 1943 ... that actually SHOWS the scissors on a Spitfire (not Seafire) from 1943 ... or 1944 even.

There are some pictures above ... FROM THE SERIAL BLOCKS YOU MENTIONED ... that show CLEARLY a) no scissors and standard wheel cover to match

i'll rest there

My assessment is based upon my own research using in the majority of instances primary source documentary evidence sourced from various extant British Air Ministry, Royal Air Force and Royal Australian Air Force archival records in this instance. I do not presume one should believe anything that I write without being able to check my sources that is why I provide citations for my references so that anyone can check what I claim against the available primary source documents.

My research is verifiable and evidentially supported by complementary primary source archival materials that have been generated by different organisations in different countries. Your reference to "THOUSANDS" of pictures is largely spurious since you have provided no verifiable evidence to support your unsubstantiated claim.

Even Graham has quickly found images from 1944 using published secondary sources that show Link Type Struts you could do the same "FROM THE SERIAL BLOCKS YOU MENTIONED" for example try page 83 of Dr Alfred Price's work on Late Spitfire Aces Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 5 published in 95 which shows an incorrectly captioned Spitfire LF. Mk. VIII that was photographed by John Thomas Harrison on 25 December 1944 on Halmahera Island, the pilot isn't anonymous either, for your interest he is Flying Officer Jack Amerson Pretty later Flight Lieutenant DFC of 452 Sqn RAAF from West Brunswick, Victoria. Or you can look through the highly recommended Wojtek Matusiak work; Polskie Skrzydła 15, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1944-1946, published this year which shows on page 174 the Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe RK889 for example.

Yet despite the primary source evidence which supports the fact that some and not most Spitfires during 1943 had Link Type Oleo Struts you still appear to infer that this was not the case. I consider unsupported arguments against verifiable primary source evidence from a variety of sources of no value. Therefore you remain wrong unless of course you can point to or provide primary source evidence that proves the British Air Ministry the Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force in 1943 were wrong (Do you believe they were all hallucinating in 1943?).

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Daniel Cox

[wally7506]

Hi Jonathon,

Doug had already corrected me on this and I acknowledged that earlier in this thread, I stated the codes looked black since they looked black on this image here although as Doug had already indicated they were in fact blue. Based upon the appearance of the codes in that image I stated that "they are probably incorrect regarding their depiction of the colours" I used the caveat probably, I did not state they were likely, highly likely or certain to be incorrect. Which if they were black it probably was incorrect. Of course I do acknowledge that they could be black or red or another colour since JF472 as seen in extant photographs is captured in Black & White that is why I used the caveat probably.

So after now looking at them "CAREFULLY" on your .pdf document of the decal instructions for JF472 and also acknowledging your statement that you have depicted the codes in "ROUNDEL BLUE", plus after examining various images such as those listed below;

Imperial War Museum (London)

CNA 1013

CNA 1978

CNA 1979

CNA 4542

NA 4296

TR 1008

I feel obliged to change my assessment of your depiction of the code colours for your decal sheet depicting JF472.

My new assessment is that the fündekals depiction of the squadron and aircraft codes for JF472 are highly likely to be incorrect i.e. they are unlikely to be ROUNDEL BLUE (see below for an example).

Shown below is a former 145 Squadron RAF Spitfire Mk. IX aircraft EN459, that still displays its former users codes;

Now back to Torque/Torsion Link Type Oleo Struts I have not suggested that many or all Spitfires had them during 1943 in fact my assesment is only that some did and not most.

My assessment is based upon my own research using in the majority of instances primary source documentary evidence sourced from various extant British Air Ministry, Royal Air Force and Royal Australian Air Force archival records in this instance. I do not presume one should believe anything that I write without being able to check my sources that is why I provide citations for my references so that anyone can check what I claim against the available primary source documents.

My research is verifiable and evidentially supported by complementary primary source archival materials that have been generated by different organisations in different countries. Your reference to "THOUSANDS" of pictures is largely spurious since you have provided no verifiable evidence to support your unsubstantiated claim.

Even Graham has quickly found images from 1944 using published secondary sources that show Link Type Struts you could do the same "FROM THE SERIAL BLOCKS YOU MENTIONED" for example try page 83 of Dr Alfred Price's work on Late Spitfire Aces Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 5 published in 95 which shows an incorrectly captioned Spitfire LF. Mk. VIII that was photographed by John Thomas Harrison on 25 December 1944 on Halmahera Island, the pilot isn't anonymous either, for your interest he is Flying Officer Jack Amerson Pretty later Flight Lieutenant DFC of 452 Sqn RAAF from West Brunswick, Victoria. Or you can look through the highly recommended Wojtek Matusiak work; Polskie Skrzydła 15, Supermarine Spitfire IX 1944-1946, published this year which shows on page 174 the Spitfire LF. Mk. IXe RK889 for example.

Yet despite the primary source evidence which supports the fact that some and not most Spitfires during 1943 had Link Type Oleo Struts you still appear to infer that this was not the case. I consider unsupported arguments against verifiable primary source evidence from a variety of sources of no value. Therefore you remain wrong unless of course you can point to or provide primary source evidence that proves the British Air Ministry the Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force in 1943 were wrong (Do you believe in 1943 they were all hallucinating?).

Cheers,

Daniel.

FOOT FIRMLY PLANTED IN MOUTH!!! (Mine, that is) I thought you meant that JF472 and all the VCs and all the VIIIs had the FORWARD facing links. Again, of the THOUSANDS (okay, HUNDREDS) of Spitfire pictures I have seen only a few show the link type oleo struts clearly in WW2 - late war - post D-Day - and they are ALL facing forward. I'll go on the record and state that I have NEVER seen a reward facing link type oleo strut on a Spitfire -- and would LOVE to see one (it's not a dare, I'd actually like to learn something here).

As for the Blue/Black codes on JF472 an apology is in order ... I did not see the post where you corrected the "black" codes statement (thanks for that).

In regards to the lighter shade of Blue in the Polish Fighting Team Spit IX coded ZX-1 we did entertain that idea. However, in most B/W photos of ZX-1, ZX-5, and ZX-6 the codes actually LOOK lighter ... on the PFT Mk IXs. On the 145 Sqn (proper) Mk VIIIs ... months later and now in Italy (or even earlier in Sicily) the codes look darker. In fact, some of the examples you listed above bear this out! (except for CNA 1978, you can't even see the roddy codes in that picture so one wonders why you bothered to list it). It's possible that they are the very same blue as ZX-1 as this is the only color photo I know of depicting 145 Sqn. We didn't see it that way.

cheers, send me some link type oleo pictures dated 1943

[Daniel Cox]

FOOT FIRMLY PLANTED IN MOUTH!!! (Mine, that is) I thought you meant that JF472 and all the VCs and all the VIIIs had the FORWARD facing links. Again, of the THOUSANDS (okay, HUNDREDS) of Spitfire pictures I have seen only a few show the link type oleo struts clearly in WW2 - late war - post D-Day - and they are ALL facing forward. I'll go on the record and state that I have NEVER seen a reward facing link type oleo strut on a Spitfire -- and would LOVE to see one (it's not a dare, I'd actually like to learn something here).

As for the Blue/Black codes on JF472 an apology is in order ... I did not see the post where you corrected the "black" codes statement (thanks for that).

In regards to the lighter shade of Blue in the Polish Fighting Team Spit IX coded ZX-1 we did entertain that idea. However, in most B/W photos of ZX-1, ZX-5, and ZX-6 the codes actually LOOK lighter ... on the PFT Mk IXs. On the 145 Sqn (proper) Mk VIIIs ... months later and now in Italy (or even earlier in Sicily) the codes look darker. In fact, some of the examples you listed above bear this out! (except for CNA 1978, you can't even see the roddy codes in that picture so one wonders why you bothered to list it). It's possible that they are the very same blue as ZX-1 as this is the only color photo I know of depicting 145 Sqn. We didn't see it that way.

cheers, send me some link type oleo pictures dated 1943

Hi Jonathan,

Regarding feet in mouth it was a mistake we are all very capable of making them as I did thinking blue was black.

I understand how you came to the conclusion you did with respect to the code colour, that said I still consider it highly likely that they were not that dark. The reason why I showed EN459 in colour and black and white was in part to show how dark those codes could look in black & white if photographed using a red filter.

I am now including two 100% crops taken from images showing 145 Squadron Spitfires. The first shows a Mk. IX EN239 ZX-T at Pachino, Italy on the 14th of July 1943, while the second shows a Mk. VIII JF503 ZX-W at Canne, Italy on the 14th of January 1944. In both of these images the code appears lighter than the roundel blue, it is probable that the photographs of JF472 that show the code letters as being quite dark were captured at the time using a red filter rendering them to be quite dark like the black and white conversion of the picture showing EN459 I posted earlier.

CNA 1013, it doesn't look like the code is as dark as the roundel blue.

While CNA 2407, (Apologies, I omitted to list this one in my previous post) also doesn't look like the code is as dark as the roundel blue.

1800 x 1200 pixel versions of those images shown above can be found here and here.

Shown below is EN459 again.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Daniel Cox

[gingerbob]

I'll go on the record and state that I have NEVER seen a rearward facing link type oleo strut on a Spitfire -- and would LOVE to see one (it's not a dare, I'd actually like to learn something here).

cheers, send me some link type oleo pictures dated 1943

Thanks for coming back from the edge of civility, chaps. This is being an interesting discussion, now on two topics (code colors and oleos)- we all have the opportunity to learn so let's avoid taking or giving offense.

Daniel, I note one apparent discrepancy: 91545 or 91945? In your citations you list 545, but in discussion you say 945- I suspect one is an error for the other?

With the photos in the last post, can we safely assume (deduce?) that the codes are blue? We have one color photo showing blue, but did the entire squadron (and PFT, attached thereto) use only one color?

Wally, I'm firmly with you on the above quote (the first one), excluding 20/40 series airplanes, of course. As far as I am aware, the only comments I have seen concerning an aft-side link on these Spits come from Edgar, quoting from something- a mod leaflet? 91901 seems to be the big question- Edgar says aft-link, RAAF says just "link", Supermarine drawing posted by Edgar shows NO link. Now if it is an aft link, that might be very difficult to spot in a photo. Edgar, what's the documentary evidence for an aft link again? I know you have mentioned it before, and I apologize, but I'm afraid I have not done a perfect job of recording every bit of Spitfire esoterica, despite my best intentions.

I can offer a 1942 date for ONE Spitfire fitted with link legs:

Tech Office Report 3565: Tests on torsion link chassis legs W3237 30/10/42 [Just this entry in a ledger- I don't have the actual report, BUT...]

Spitfire Mk.III/W3237/Flight Report/9 11/11/42

Link type oleo legs

flying time 2 hr 25 min.

A pair of link type oleo legs has been fitted to this aircraft for comparison with the standard splined legs.

A total of twenty two landings has been carried out on Worthy Down at an all up weight of 7550 lbs.

At first no difference was noticeable between the link type legs and the standard legs, but after approximately twelve landings an improvement in shock absorbing was noted. When the aircraft was rocked on the ground the legs were seen to move, this did not occur when the legs were first fitted.

The leg movement due to torque reaction taking off was normal. No undue braking effect due to toe in was noticeable.

Note: These had previously done 1 landing and some taxying on Mark IX Spitfire BS118.

-DR Robertson

Later:

SM/LF.61/568 15/2/44 Inspector in charge, AID, Hursley Park, to Smith

"Work carried out on CRD aircraft at Worthy Down aerodrome"

To the RTO at VAL [Vickers Aircraft, I presume]

Herewith extract from report received from my Senior Examiner at Worthy Down aerodrome, for week ending the 12th instant:

W3237 - Mk.III Two hours taxying trials completed as a test on CBAF oleo legs with oilite bushes fitted in link bearings.

The taxying trials comprised 20 minutes ordinary taxying and the remainder of the time spent "bouncing" the aircraft across the aerodrome. The pilot flew approximately 60 circuits, on each circuit making a heavy landing followed by six or seven heavy bumps. The aircraft leaping across the 'drome like a kangaroo and eventually taking off. The test ended with a burst tyre but fortunately no damage was done.

During the test the oleo legs were examined twice for signs of damage.

An examination after the test showed that the bushes were considerably worn - a .004 feeler could be inserted between the bush and the pin in 50% of the bearings. Also it was possible to turn each of the wheels sideways about the oleo ram through an arc of 1/4". The oleos are to be removed from the aircraft for further examination.

signed AH Mitchell, Inspector in Charge, AID

I think I've seen comments before about "Castle Bromwich type" oleo legs. I would not find it at all surprising if Supermarine developed a link-type leg and put it into production on the Mk.VIII/XIV (and XI?) quite a bit earlier than link-type legs were introduced on the Mk.IX production line at Castle Bromwich.

bob

[Daniel Cox]

Hi Bob,

Regarding 91545/91945 yes one is in error! I will re-check the documents when I can and correct accordingly although I may not fix this for the next three to four weeks due to having to do other things, thanks for spotting it I need to proof read what I write before posting a little better.

As to finding pictures as Jonathan suggests I am looking and will also look at a number of unrestored oleo struts for Mk. VIII Spitfires to see if any are worth noting regarding this discussion once I have the time.

Regarding the 1942 information you posted thanks that's earlier than I knew, anyway I will have a good read when I can and see if anything else turns up. Nice find by the way!

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Edgar]

As far as I am aware, the only comments I have seen concerning an aft-side link on these Spits come from Edgar, quoting from something- a mod leaflet? 91901 seems to be the big question- Edgar says aft-link, RAAF says just "link", Supermarine drawing posted by Edgar shows NO link. Now if it is an aft link, that might be very difficult to spot in a photo. Edgar, what's the documentary evidence for an aft link again? I know you have mentioned it before, and I apologize, but I'm afraid I have not done a perfect job of recording every bit of Spitfire esoterica, despite my best intentions.

Taken directly from an original Mk.XIV workshop manual.

I think I've seen comments before about "Castle Bromwich type" oleo legs. I would not find it at all surprising if Supermarine developed a link-type leg and put it into production on the Mk.VIII/XIV (and XI?) quite a bit earlier than link-type legs were introduced on the Mk.IX production line at Castle Bromwich.

Mod 1056 says "To make provision for CBAF link type oleo leg (1056 & 1057 supersede 832 & 838)," is for the VII, VIII, IX, XI & XIV, and was accompanied by leaflets in Oct/Nov 1943; these leaflets showed how a small triangle needed to be removed from the front corner where the wheel well and leg channel meet, which implies clearance required for a forward-facing link, a modification not mentioned, or provided for, in 832/838.

Note that the mod just says "Make provision for"; mod 1057 says "To introduce CBAF link type oleo leg part no 91986 & fairing (see mod 1056.)" There is no "cleared" date, in Vickers ledger, but an RAF reference dates it as 29-11-43.

Edgar

[wally7506]

I think 1943's a very difficult challenge, in view of the brief time span and the lack of decent photos of the rear of the oleo on any Spitfire. Wartime photos generally don't go in for the detailed modeller's walkarounds that would show detail in such a position. You may well have seen thousands of Spitfire photos, as probably have I in my time, although I wonder just how many of those thousands you have specifically checked before making such a dogmatic statement? I suspect you'd have equal difficulty finding a photo of that period that clearly portrayed an aircraft from those serial blocks in 1943 without such links. Front links, ok if later, but rear ones?

However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Given the number of aircraft produced, any lack of photos is not proof such a fitting did not exist. Even a glut of good clear dated photos showing a lack of the same would be only reasonably convincing on a balance of probabilities.

Can I suggest, based on the list above, if they are to be found on any Spitfire they'll be found on the Mk.XII, which should reduce the amount of searching to a manageable amount?

I must confess my ignorance. I thought the gist of the discussion was forward facing torque links. I've seen them on XIVs, late IXs and XVIs only ... which, just by their production dates, places them in 1944/5. Didn't even know about reward facing scissors. I'll check the photos of Mk XIIs and see if I can spot one of two of thiose. I have looked for the links especially when considering 2TAF aircraft and late VIIIs and XIVs in Burma. I've not seen them on VIIIs and IXs in the Med, for instance.

I agree, absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of abscence (I like that, will probably borrow it from time to time) HOWEVER, an order or a diagram from an office doesn't equate to practice in the field, either. Which is why I try to rely on the photographs.

[wally7506]

1944 turned out to be quite easy, the second book I looked in. "91 Nigeria Squadron" by Peter Hall, p99. Spitfire Mk.XIV RB188, the mount of Flt. Lt. Johnny Johnson (not that one!) photographed in July 1944. Forward-mounted links, so by all accounts the aft-mounted ones predated these. I also found them on a Mk.XVI in "Spitfire The History", but 1944 or '45 production I didn't check.

As I suspected, I couldn't find a single photo that showed the rear of the oleo clearly enough to tell whether a link was there or not, but there are after all many more photos to go through.

Yes, I expect to see them on XIVs and XVIs. Just not VIIIs in the Med circa 1943.

However, I will tune my eye to look for them in Morgan/Shacklady and other titles I have, not to prove a point, but to become more enlightened.

js

[Bedders]

Does anyone have a photo or diagram of a pre-Mark 21 Spitfire with the scissor links at the rear of the main undercarriage oleo? I'm trying to understand whether Bader's 1945 Spitfire, RK917, had them or not. It didn't have the scissors on the front, judging by photos such as this one:

 

Any thoughts welcome.

 

Justin

[Graham Boak]

Something else nagging at me - isn't there a thread making similar points but discussing the clipping of the bottom corner of the door because of one of these mods?  Can't find it.

[NPL]

On 5/24/2012 at 8:09 AM, Daniel Cox said:

Hi Doug,

One more thing worth noting about JF472 is that if you are using fündekals decals for your model they are probably incorrect regarding their depiction of the colours of the aircraft codes for JF472. On examination of various extant hi-res colour and black & white images of 145 Squadron Spitfire Mk. IX and Mk. VIII aircraft during 1943 that can be purchased as downloads from the Imperial War Museum. It is likely that JF472 wore blue codes with white surrounds as opposed to black ones with white surrounds.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Fundecals edited a correction with the correct blue shade to their first issue, included if you order the decals. You can see for your self if you download the instructions from fundecals.

[tempestfan]

On 1/13/2019 at 4:10 PM, Graham Boak said:

Something else nagging at me - isn't there a thread making similar points but discussing the clipping of the bottom corner of the door because of one of these mods?  Can't find it.

I remember at least one occasion where the links were discussed, and it can’t have been this one as it predates my signing up for two years. Perhaps in one of the two Spit q.‘s monsters ? Doesn’t help much I admit with a total that must run to 1.500+ posts...

[gingerbob]

I had another go at finding prior threads, and this one introduces the aft-link, with images (at least some essential ones) still showing.  There are others, but in some the images are long gone, which makes it rather hollow reading.