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Hungarian WW2 camo colours - any matches


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1 hour ago, JWM said:

I recall that I've seen colour photos of Ju-86 in Hungarian markings. Fast googling brought this:

Regards

J-W

 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

junkers_ju_86_k_by_greenh0rn-d64qgfd.jpg

 

But also this

b027f4c93432d6437a56c23d1e0d39d5.jpg

 

These last two photos are colorized B/W ones (the last one even has the colorizing author's signature and logo on it), so IMHO they cannot be regarded as a reliable reference.

Edited by warhawk
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14 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

 I understand there isn’t a great deal of scholarly information on the topic and color photos are few. However is there perhaps a reference that clarifies the question?

The Mushroom Models Publication Hungarian Fighter Colours,  Vol1 I think,  (not too hand to check ) has information on Hungarian made paint.   Kryer IIRC?  The book has a section on this, with photos of surviving parts in them.   It's pretty detailed.

EDIT

http://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/hungarian-fighter-colours-1930-1945-vol-1

Quote

Chapter Two discusses the camouflage and colors used from 1930-1945, and again the photos are numbered and referenced in the text by those numbers. A nice touch is the table on page 37 that shows the colors in their German, Hungarian, and English names. In 1938, it was decided to unify the colors used by combat aircraft in Hungary, and these colors were Stone Grey, Earth Brown, and Dark Green for the topside, with Light Blue to be the underside color. The authors have also included the approximate Federal Standard (FS) numbers for each of these colors, which is most helpful.

 

If the paint is original German, then 61/62/63/65 is a good bet.   if repainted in Hungary, they may well have used Hungarian paint, which is a similar scheme to the Luftwaffe 61/62/63/65 scheme anyway!

 

There are example of Ju-87

Hungarian-Ju-87-4.jpg

  and Bf 109's in these colours

Messerschmitt-Bf-109F4-RHAF-experimental

AFAIK this is authentic colour image

 

note similarity to these, the top looks authentic, the lower maybe colorised,  note the lack of color on the tail triangle markings on the lower image.  the top image, being a non splinter pattern, and 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

I recall that I've seen colour photos of Ju-86 in Hungarian markings. Fast googling brought this:

Junkers_Ju-86_rep%C3%BCl%C5%91g%C3%A9pek

 

junkers_ju_86_k_by_greenh0rn-d64qgfd.jpg

 

 

HTH

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13 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The Mushroom Models Publication Hungarian Fighter Colours,  Vol1 I think,  (not too hand to check ) has information on Hungarian made paint.   Kryer IIRC?  The book has a section on this, with photos of surviving parts in them.   It's pretty detailed.

Not so far away: Krayer.

 

The main external colours used from 1939, if not slightly earlier were:

 

Grey (G.1100): known unofficially by those who used it as Stone Grey, approx. FS equivalent FS26187;

Light Blue (G.1101): known unofficially by those who used it as Light Blue, approx. FS equivalent FS25530; 

Dark Brown (G.1102): known unofficially by those who used it as Earth Brown, approx. FS equivalent FS10049;  and 

Green (G.1103) known unofficially by those who used it as Dark Green, approx. FS equivalent FS34094.

 

The four colours above closely resemble but are not identical to the early Luftwaffe colours of RLM 61/62/63/65 which are often referred to erroneously as "export colours".  When comparing these 4 colours of the German and Hungarian standards it can be seen that the light blues are almost identical while Krayer's Earth Brown, Dark Green and Stone Grey appear slightly lighter and less saturated than the corresponding RLM colours' hue (RLM 61, 62 and 63 respectively).

 

Above quoted from pp. 41-2 of Hungarian Fighter Colours Vol 1, with conflations/elisions to save me typing: the underlining is mine.  The authors stress that the FS numbers are not matches but merely nearest equivalents.  They also note that Krayer were not the only company providing paint to the army and air force.

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Hi, gentlemen,

 

According to the relativel new book by Punka-Bernád ("Hungarian Fighter Colours, Vol.1") the "three tone splinter" (applied to Fiat CR.42 -the OP subject but one that could be similar to the latter development) was German-influenced and consisted of "Stone Grey, Earth brown and Dark Green". They were delivered in Aluminum, so they were painted in Hungary, possibly with Krayer paints (?) Later batches were delivered in Italian paints which are quoted as "Havana" (Yellow) Nr. 5342; Chestnut (Brown) Nr. 5242 and Green Nr. 5247.  It would be possible that this scheme, including the "Havana" colour, was used in later repaints of Ju 86s?

 

Fernando 

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  • 10 months later...

I have a question in regard of hungarian Caproni Ca.135 camo in early war years (arrow insignia period). 

Capronis and reggianes seem to have had original italian camouflage. While interpreting Reggiane camo seems no problem as they were also built for RA (and there is multitude of photos around), Capronis were built for export only (Peru, Spain and Hungary) and are more tricky IMHO.

At least to me it seems that there is a bit of a problem interpreting the colors. From what i gather most profiles and recolored photos interpret the camo as one of the following

1. sand yellow (Giallo Mimetico 3) with green (Verde Mimetico 3 or 53192) blotches

2. light green (Verde Mimetico 53192) with green (Verde Mimetico 3) blotches

 

Which one would be more correct?

 

OH and BTW if anyone knows anything about their airfield stuff please leave a comment here:

 

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Where did you get Caproni 135 kit? 

2 hours ago, TISO said:

Which one would be more correct?

All color profiles I've seen are close  to your first choice - sand (darker variant)/green .

And especially from Hungarian books one

pqmYq9EpDm7gqo_MxTbIlwP6AhcRMtW3Ja1O5Mcj

bc82b8a60e7839e6db460a52241149f3--aerona7XYdYmZ89nceNjThKt_OkqQJU3FUwVUPR801UyrS

 

 

 

This color photo of Italian one showes two colours of blotches. 

38926263_1105347269619538_29603361747548
 

 

Here is interesting re-painted one

1552120_70407_CaproniCa135B538.jpg

 

and here 

http://www.ww2incolor.com/hungary/CA135-HAF-INC.html

 

Regards

J-W

 

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I'm familiar with these.

Color profile on PlanesResin 1/72 kit (ex Cunarmodel) gives option 2 of lt.green-dk.green.

 

BTW Italian scheme seems 3 color (yellow, green and brown) which brings 3rd option into equasion as this type was not in use in Italian use.

 

I'm kind of weary of older books even from countries that used the planes as i got burned by older russian books or decal sets (Travers) that gave profiles in colours that we now know were false (example of brown on early war 2 tone camos).

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On 2/13/2021 at 8:44 PM, TISO said:

After hours of surfing a site of which language i don't know:

3 color scheme???

The names of week days are in Hungarian. Interesting is that prop on this photo is mottled: 

1567563_63364_IMG_20180401_080746.jpg

 

It looks indeed tile 3 colors also like here (even if it is colorized...???):

caproni_ca_135_bombers_by_martynmilitary

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On 2/13/2021 at 10:09 PM, TISO said:

Another great photo library:

http://www.avia-info.hu/talalat.php?Ujtipus=356

 

This is an excellent web page, I have bump on this some time ago searching for photos of Caproni 101 and Sm 75.

Please note that the arrow-like insignia on fins are always painted on both sides whereas later the national colors are sometimes on both sides, somtimes only on external parts...

J-W

 

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Looking at the photos it is interesting how many variations of camo there is on hungarian Ca.135's. From bigger more spaced larger blotches to really dense small blotches where light base color almost doesn't show and some camos that seem the base is green and blotches are with yellow and brown.

Camouflaged prop is interesting detail which i haven't noticed before (too focused on the plane colors).

 

It seems that Caproni was producing planes in hope RA will take them on but they didn't. So i will basicly presume Italian camo with yellow base and green and brown blotches (full speed ahead and torpedos be damned).

 

Hungarians recived their Ca.135 in two shipments. First shipment of 31 (ordered 32 but 1 was destroyed during dellivery) Ca.135bis/U from Regia Aeronautica stocks (RA never fielded this type) was delivered between May and June 1940 and received Hungarian Aviation military registrations from B.501 to B.532 and second shipment was 36 examples: 19 delivered in 1940 and 17 in 1941 which were presumably registered from B.533 to B.568.

 

Also interesting tidbit is that Hungarians traded in back to Caproni their Ca.310 Libbecios (with which they were extremly unhappy) to be included into the price of the first batch of their Ca.135 recived. 

It seems nobody was happy with Ca.310 except RA (used for colonial duties) and Yugoslavs (used exclusively as a trainer) 

 

 

 

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On 3/18/2020 at 4:03 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

  and Bf 109's in these colours

Messerschmitt-Bf-109F4-RHAF-experimental

AFAIK this is authentic colour image

 

note similarity to these, the top looks authentic, the lower maybe colorised,  note the lack of color on the tail triangle markings on the lower image.  the top image, being a non splinter pattern, and 

 

HTH

Troy, beware that picture showing a109F is a Messerschmitt propaganda picture and does not depict a plane in Hungarian service. It seems that at one early moment there were talks about producing 109Fs in Hungary that came to nothing (later, 109Gs were in fact produced at Manfred & Weiss -?-). The picture shows a German painted machine in the so-called "export colours" -in themselves a false generalization by Merrick, who also mistook this plane as one in Hungarian service, and so shows her in his book on German aircraft colours.

Note that the aircraft does not show a fuselage code. In Hungarian AF, those codes are the serial number, not a "tactical" code, so if a plane does not show them, it is most probably not in service (there are exceptions, but mostly ex-Luftwaffe planes, and very late war -like 109G "66". In late war some units adopted "tactical" coding, but this is not the case)

Every 109F that served in the Hungarian AF was ex-Luftwaffe, most even loaned, and received a serial "V. 0xx" or "V. -blank- xx". Those which kept Luftwaffe insignia usually kept a LW-style tactical code ("Red 2")

I called the "export colours" identification "a false generalization" because there are many examples of German exported planes in other colours (Rumanian 109Es in 70/71/65; Yugoslav 109Es in 71/65 -or 70/65; Finnish Do-17Zs and Hungarian 215Bs in 70/71/65, etc.)

 

Fernando

 

 

 

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