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Hungarian WW2 camo colours - any matches


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Hi all, so just researching a project here.

Just got the HAD decals set for said biplane to use on the Italeri 1/48th model, and Im wondering if anyone has refs for the early splinter type scheme colours .

Hoping HADman might chime in here - as his sheet just gives generic names like light blue etc. I can 'approxiguess' of course, but 'twould be nice to have a start point.

Esoteric I know, but any info greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Jonners

PS Demon nearly finished, and then the Lansen needs finishing, and then its a Gladiator, and this. if you were wondering :) This is the first year ever I've got to the end of May without finishing a single model yet, which is worrying.

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It was apparently based on the Luftwaffe 61/62/63 +65 scheme but the colours in the decal schematic look "off" for that. Going by Hungarian Eagles (Hikoki) it could be a combination of Italian and German paints.

There is a Mushroom book on the subject due out so maybe a good idea to wait . . .

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Not an easy one: as far as I know there are only 3 available books published in English on the Royal Hungarian Air Force, all of them written at least in part by György Punka: "Hungarian air Force" (Squadron Signal), "Hungarian Eagles" (Hikoki) and "Hungarian Aces of WW2" (Osprey) and not a lot more has been published in Hungary, as far as I know. The best info on colours is in "Hungarian Eagles" but even there it is a bit sketchy and it doesn't go much further than to suggest that for the splinter scheme both German and Italian manufactured paints were used, with dark brown, green and grey-green (RLM 02?) used on the upper surfaces and either RLM 65 or Italian Grigio Mimetico on the lower parts. I do suspect that RLM 61/62/63 might have been used but it is just a hunch of mine and nothing more. "hungarian Eagles" can be found used at decent prices and I know there's at least one scanned version of it somewhere on the web.

I do hope that some Hungarian researcher might have made more progress in the meantime, but if they have they might have made public their research only in Hungarian forums and even if i can read fluently French, Italian, Spanish and (much less well) German, the subtleties of a language with a whopping 23 declensions like Magyar totally defeat me....

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Then again, Hungary was not a third world country dependent on more advance nations for paint and such. Talking about Brown, Gray and Green. Can the variations be great?

bd23a959.jpg

3c0ad9ea.jpg

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Then again, Hungary was not a third world country dependent on more advance nations for paint and such. Talking about Brown, Gray and Green. Can the variations be great?

bd23a959.jpg

3c0ad9ea.jpg

Thanks Steve - can I ask what paints you used? Looks very nice.

Cheers

jonners

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Hi all,

from the reading I've now done- its seems the most likely mix of colours is RLM02 for the pale grey, then Italian dark green and brown, with either RLM65 or Italian light grey below.

Hmmm

Jonners

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Talking about Brown, Gray and Green. Can the variations be great?

As members of this forum will happily debade the precise shade of a creamy-green colour until the sky falls in then yes.

When it comes to aircraft colours I often think that ignorance is bliss. The more we know, the more we are worried about accuracy. Being able to paint an aircraft brown grey and green when nobody can take you to task over the precise shades must be great.

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As to the paints, since I use Tamiya almost exclusively (due to local availability), it could be a mix. I don't remember and didn't right it down. The underside would most likely have been an Italian Light Gray (Grigio). Then again, those Cr. 42s may actually have had aluminum underside.

As for Hungarian camouflage, it is a great unknown. German, Italian, French or local made paint. I have seen the light color used interpreted as both a gray and a sand color. Perhaps the German aircraft, like the Fw 58 and Ju 86 were painted in the German early war colors, similar to the Swedish Ju 86s. But the Cr 42s, as well as other aircraft, were repainted. The style of the camouflage also varies, from splinter to free form.

If you can prove to me the colors were other than as I painted, I'll gladly repaint. But too often we let "exact matches" stop a modeler from proceeding or leave a with interminable doubt.

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At least the first batch of Cr.42 were almost surely delivered in silver paint and without national markings, by the way.

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As members of this forum will happily debade the precise shade of a creamy-green colour until the sky falls in then yes.

When it comes to aircraft colours I often think that ignorance is bliss. The more we know, the more we are worried about accuracy. Being able to paint an aircraft brown grey and green when nobody can take you to task over the precise shades must be great.

Fair enough but surely modelling is a broad enough church that we can encompass those who want to micron-measure paint pigments as well as those who don't care about such minutiae? As Nick Millman frequently points out, there is a world of difference between what paint was specified to be applied, what was actually applied and the appearance of that paint after several months of hard operational service. Does that mean we should just paint our models how we want to? If that's what floats your boat then go ahead. Equally, those who want to strive for something a little "different" or push the boundaries of perceptual accuracy should equally be welcome - even if that means debating the precise shade of a creamy-green colour until the Sky falls in (and, yes, the capital S was deliberate...a pathetic attempt at humour! :banghead: ).

What does annoy is when one individual's theory is presented as fact without back-up documentation or evidence (cue "well it looks grey to me" discussions here if you want), particularly when the "evidence" is colour photographs that have undergone who-knows-what in the intervening 70 years since they were taken. As an image analyst with over 20 years' experience, trust me when I say pictures can most definitely deceive and colour perception can be heavily biased based on a range of factors. Those who wish to consider balanced evidence, including documentation, artifacts and whatever professional-grade measurement can be applied, ought not to be castigated by those who take the "any old shade will do" approach. Equally, it would be entirely wrong to slam another modeller who painted their kit "wrong", indeed to do such a thing to a newcomer just starting out in the hobby would be entirely reprehensible.

Surely we shouldn't be trying to influence any other modeller to paint their kits the way we, as individuals, do? The two groups (and there are probably many more shades--forgive yet another pun--to this discussion when you bring in pre- or post-shading, weathering effects etc etc) aren't always mutually exclusive, as you point out yourself. There are some questions to which we may never know the answer (one of my pet favourites is whether the Hawker Persian Fury was ever painted in the attractive sand colour with the golden lion's emblem on the fuselage side?). New information is coming to light all the time and we should welcome that broader knowledge and understanding rather than ridiculing it. There are many facets to the discussion of colour and individuals should be free to participate, or ignore, as they see fit - but we shouldn't be beating each other up for taking either approach, nor should we be presenting opinions as facts. As my old Warrant Officer used to say, "Opinions are like a**eholes - everyone's got one and many people talk out of their's!"

Just my (rather long!) two penn'orth!

Cheers,

Mark

Edited by mhaselden
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Fair enough but surely modelling is a broad enough church that we can encompass those who want to micron-measure paint pigments as well as those who don't care about such minutiae?

Cheers,

Mark

I am in total agreement. The point I was making is that sometimes if you don't know the exact colour, or better still nobody knows it, then it can take away the pressure of getting it "right". In my case I know a lot more about RAF colours than, say, French ones. I have built one model of a French aircraft and for me near enough was good enough. If it was an RAF aircraft I would have made sure I used paints that were intended to be matches for the original colours and would have taken into account any information I had regarding their accuracy.

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Well I'm guilty of being interested in identifying paint pigments and their characteristics because I believe that to be the answer to many colour riddles. I share information about it on the basis that those who are interested might appreciate it and those who aren't can scroll past and do their own thing anyway.

I'm pragmatic about the application of paint colour to models but interested in precision and fidelity when it comes to identifying and communicating paint colour. I think the two sometimes get confused. Personal colour choice might look great but is not necessarily a valid reference source. I'm also interested in verifying and quantifying comparison matches - an area where there is much misinformation by convention.

If the variations in brown, green and grey were really not that great, Humbrol would only need three tins of those colours in their range. Checked their range lately? It might make things easier but I'm not sure it would make modelling so interesting or enjoyable. Taking the colour green, for example, there are 34 separate green pigment colour designations in the Colour Index alone and bear in mind these are frequently sub-divided by multiple commercial variations and can be mixed with other pigments for an almost infinite range of greens of distinctive characteristics. Getting the character of a colour on a model right is important which is probably why there are not too many BoB Spitfire models where the Dark Green is represented by Humbrol 80.

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Hi Gents - TBH I think the colour researchers do the hard work, which then hopefully filters down into paints that are more accurate for those that don't want to do the digging and quantifying.

I value both sides - it means for example, that I cant paint my Pearl Harbour A6M2 in RLM 02 and be happy that , thanks to colour research, that shade will be a reasonably good match for "Ame Iro"

20 years ago I would have been pilloried for using a pale grey/green - as the orthodoxy was straight pale grey, but recent research has shed more informed light on this, and as a result we all benefit form being able ot make a more accurate model.

I'm sure I'll end up custom mixing the colours for my CR42, as I like to spray with tamiya acrylics anyway. But at least i can make an educated guess ( I hope).

Cheers, and lets not get too upset by each other here chaps. Modelling is a broad church after all.

Jonners

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Hi Gents - TBH I think the colour researchers do the hard work, which then hopefully filters down into paints that are more accurate for those that don't want to do the digging and quantifying.

I value both sides - it means for example, that I cant paint my Pearl Harbour A6M2 in RLM 02 and be happy that , thanks to colour research, that shade will be a reasonably good match for "Ame Iro"

20 years ago I would have been pilloried for using a pale grey/green - as the orthodoxy was straight pale grey, but recent research has shed more informed light on this, and as a result we all benefit form being able ot make a more accurate model.

I'm sure I'll end up custom mixing the colours for my CR42, as I like to spray with tamiya acrylics anyway. But at least i can make an educated guess ( I hope).

Cheers, and lets not get too upset by each other here chaps. Modelling is a broad church after all.

Jonners

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  • 7 years later...

Greetings. I am researching Hungarian camouflage colors in anticipation of the new 1/48 resin Ju-86 kit by Planes. Can anyone speak to the yellowish-tan color on early and/or late Hungarian Ju-86’s?  Some sources indicate it was a RLM 63, others indicate the yellow/tan color shown below in the Ju-86K color profiles.  I understand there isn’t a great deal of scholarly information on the topic and color photos are few. However is there perhaps a reference that clarifies the question?  Any guidance in this area or reference to a good source would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. spacer.png

spacer.png

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Hi

Tom Hitchcock published one of the first serious studies of Luftwaffe colours in 1980; Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft: 1935-1945. Ken Merrick and Tom Hitchcock. In it they mention the so called "export colours" as shown on bombers meant/aimed for the export market. Sand, and warm/not too dark Brown and green IIRC. Cannot remember off-hand if they were included in the RLM-series (like 61/62/62/65). I wonder if those are meant to be represented above?

(Agree, they may not have anything to do with the original CR.42 question..)

Off and on there has been short debates in the past if the Swedish Ju-86/B3 were so painted when delivered from Germany. The conclusion became that they were not, however, ordinary Luftwaffe RLM 61/62/63 with 65 undersides were used.

Apart from the first three, the B3 camouflage pattern was rather consistent with broad, not too wavy bands. It doesn't seem from pics and colour instructions that Hungarian planes were as uniform pattern-wise.

(will check the painting guide and the kit instructions tonight)

EDIT; Kit instructions (research and decals by HAD) states 61/62/63 w. 65, see recent pics in thread in Rumourmonger. 

Edited by Tomas Enerdal
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Hmm.  The last discussion of the Swedish examples that I saw ended with the conclusion that they were 61/62/63.  

 

The Monogram export colours were quoted as being in the RLM range, but their existence does not seem to have gathered any support in the decades since their appearance.  However I have argued that there is evidence for an intermediate pattern used at least experimentally before the wholesale adoption of 70/71, namely on He.111 s and Ju52s, later seen on Romanian examples.   I recall having some problems ascertaining the patterns on Greek Henschels before postponing the search in a futile wait for more information.  But the more intricate wavy appearance is apparently restricted to the Dornier demonstrator.

 

There does indeed appear to be large gaps in the information regarding German exports into the more eastern European states.

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Yes, those B3 built in Germany recieved 61/62/62 w. 65 undersides.

Some were built/assembled in Sweden, they recieved Swedish equivalent colours which were darker. (w54/W25/w55 w. W26 undersides) Such paints may also have been used when repainted after major overhaul.

Of interest is that not only Swedish and Hungarian, but also Portugese Ju-86 recieved rounded, wavy patterns, not splinter. Peculiar to Junkers? 

 

Edited by Tomas Enerdal
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That's basically what I'd remembered, if vaguely, about the Swedish examples.  However I was being deliberately precise in my statement, having added the adjective "intricate".    The wavy schemes seen on the export Ju.86 are not as intricate as that carried by the Dornier that featured in the Monogram "export colours" section.  The patterns on the Portuguese Ju.52s were splinter in this (not documented anywhere) pattern - it has less colour changes down the fuselage than  the  prewar scheme but more than the wartime.  So the wavy lines were not specifically Junkers.  That the Swedish examples were delivered in the standard scheme counts against the "export colours" theory.  Bit of a shame, really.

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Some Hungarians machines had (are presented?) with 4 colours from top what sometimes is interpreted as darker and lighter green plus lt grey and light brown, sometimes it is greem, two shades of brown and lt grey. It is about He 170, He 112, Sm 75 at least. For example here:

2FjUqYS7bDrSaoL02ELooebsKc95yyFk3yr94XOx

E.101.jpg?itok=4qnxu0ma

I remember from somwhere (?) that export paints in Germany were different than those for Luftwaffe and the rule is simple, the straight lines (is it the name "splinter"?) camo was done with proper RLM colours whereas the soft patterns had "export variants". Of course Savoia can has Italian colours as well. For me the two shades of dark colour is visible right behind "101" and on botom of fin (toward the sharp end of national arrow goes wavy line).

Cheers

J-W

 

 

 

 

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I recall that I've seen colour photos of Ju-86 in Hungarian markings. Fast googling brought this:

Junkers_Ju-86_rep%C3%BCl%C5%91g%C3%A9pek

 

junkers_ju_86_k_by_greenh0rn-d64qgfd.jpg

 

But also this

b027f4c93432d6437a56c23d1e0d39d5.jpg

 

So twice light colour is light grey, but once it is sand, moreover, the He170 in background had four colours scheme with two brown (dark and sand) lt grey and green...

Regards

J-W

 

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