Bronze green

[Spitfires Forever]

I am about to start on a Martlet V and need to paint the interior bronze green as was the practice at Grumman. Is there a paint company that produces this color or would a color like Field Green/FS 34097 be close Asa substitute? and while I am at it, who makes that bluish green that Republic used for the jug? Any help on these topics would be appreciated. Oh yes, thanks to Mr. Bruce Archer for his great article on the Martlet/Wildcat from whence this inquiry came.

Cheers

Edited May 17, 2012 by Spitfires Forever

[AndyC]

I think the consensus on various threads seems to be any Dark Green - either Euro1 Dark Green or US Medium Green with a touch of Black added and I have even seen RLM Schwartzgrun used.

I used Xtracrylix British Armour Bronze Green on mine and there is not a great deal in it especially after a wash is done.

Edited May 17, 2012 by AndyC

[Seahawk]

I am about to start on a Martlet V and need to paint the interior bronze green as was the practice at Grumman. Is there a paint company that produces this color or would a color like Field Green/FS 34097 be close Asa substitute? and while I am at it, who makes that bluish green that Republic used for the jug? Any help on these topics would be appreciated. Oh yes, thanks to Mr. Bruce Archer for his great article on the Martlet/Wildcat from whence this inquiry came.

Cheers

But if it's a Wildcat V, it's a FM-1 and built by General Motors' Eastern Aircraft division, who, IIRC, used standard interior green.

As for your Thunderbolt question, I agree with the suggestion of Euro Dark Green 1: I used Humbrol 149 FS34092 and was very happy with the match to colour photos in Detail & Scale.

[AndyC]

But if it's a Wildcat V, it's a FM-1 and built by General Motors' Eastern Aircraft division, who, IIRC, used standard interior green.

Good point actually - I think you're right

[spitfire]

For Bronze green I have used both Xtracolor X114 Euro 1 Medium Green, and WEM Colourcoats ACUS 30 Bronze Green.

Cheers

Dennis

[Work In Progress]

Good point actually - I think you're right

Yup, he is. One of the great conveniences of the FM-1 and FM-2.

[AndyC]

Yup, he is. One of the great conveniences of the FM-1 and FM-2.

And therein lies my confusion - I have no idea of the US equivalents of the marks of FAA Martlet/Wildcat - probably should have checked

[Nick Millman]

One of the problems with this subject is that the paint colours being cited are what modellers think the colour should look like rather than what it actually was. And I think issues of scale must come into that because none of the FS values exampled are anything like the paint colours in the original standards.

Bronze green, which was an Army Air Corps colour (no.9) adopted by the USN for cockpit enclosures in August 1938 (BuAer TO 50-38) and Dull Dark Green which was a USN colour specified for cockpit enclosures in March 1942 (BuAer SR-15d) are sometimes confused and various opinions are expressed about what they should look like and which hobby paint should be used to represent them. Part of the reason might be that although they are different colours I doubt that many people would be able to discern a visual difference between them from extant paint samples on an airframe or impressions given by colour photographs. Both colours are drastically affected by any blue or yellow shift in the photographic image.

TO 50-38 qualified the use of Bronze Green in cockpit enclosures with "or other approved colour" which presumably meant that manufacturers could seek authorisation to apply variants or even different colours and that might not have been documented on a case by case basis. No such qualification was given for Dull Dark Green in 1942.

The missing link is between the colour specified in 1938 and 1942 for 'Personal spaces', which was a Pastel Green (first No. 6 and then as "approved by BuAer") and the tinted Zinc Chromate which was adopted as standard Interior Green ANA 611. The timing of this standardisation is not very clear but a BuAer letter to the Naval Aircraft Factory mentions it in December 1942.

Bronze Green - Munsell 6.8 GY 1.7/3.7 no useful FS 595b equivalent

Dull Dark Green - Munsell 5.6 G 1.3/3.3 closest FS 595b value is 14036 @ 5.91 where < 2.0 = a close match (14036 is more blueish)

Edited May 17, 2012 by Nick Millman

[Selwyn]

One of the problems with this subject is that the paint colours being cited are what modellers think the colour should look like rather than what it actually was. And I think issues of scale must come into that because none of the FS values exampled are anything like the paint colours in the original standards.

Bronze green, which was an Army Air Corps colour (no.9) adopted by the USN for cockpit enclosures in August 1938 (BuAer TO 50-38) and Dull Dark Green which was a USN colour specified for cockpit enclosures in March 1942 (BuAer SR-15d) are sometimes confused and various opinions are expressed about what they should look like and which hobby paint should be used to represent them. Part of the reason might be that although they are different colours I doubt that many people would be able to discern a visual difference between them from extant paint samples on an airframe or impressions given by colour photographs. Both colours are drastically affected by any blue or yellow shift in the photographic image.

TO 50-38 qualified the use of Bronze Green in cockpit enclosures with "or other approved colour" which presumably meant that manufacturers could seek authorisation to apply variants or even different colours and that might not have been documented on a case by case basis. No such qualification was given for Dull Dark Green in 1942.

The missing link is between the colour specified in 1938 and 1942 for 'Personal spaces', which was a Pastel Green (first No. 6 and then as "approved by BuAer") and the tinted Zinc Chromate which was adopted as standard Interior Green ANA 611. The timing of this standardisation is not very clear but a BuAer letter to the Naval Aircraft Factory mentions it in December 1942.

Bronze Green - Munsell 5.6 G 1.3/3.3 closest FS 595b value is 14036 @ 5.91 where < 2.0 = a close match (14036 is more blueish)

Dull Dark Green - Munsell 6.8 GY 1.7/3.7 no useful FS 595b equivalent

Nick.

Another problem is that you are describing US Bronze Green. There is also a potential pitfall, (not in this case fortunately) in that there is also a UK Bronze Green in BS381c which was used extensively by the British Army. It is often described as a "Armour Colour" but it was used by the RAF it was was the colour of all Live WW2 British bombspost 1940/41

Xtracolour do it in their range of colours.

Selwyn

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for mentioning that Selwyn. There are actually two bronze greens in 381c - 223 Middle Bronze Green and 224 Deep Bronze Green!

British Deep Bronze Green (224) is some distance from US Bronze Green @ 13.1

BS 381c gives the approx Munsell for it as 6.2 GY 2.6/1.8 but the L*a*b* values convert as 4.1 GY 3.0/1.1. It is more olive looking than the US colour.

[Work In Progress]

It is intuitively common sense and logic for people to name their newly mixed official paint colours after things that they seem to resemble, e.g. "bronze green", "dull dark green", "dark earth" and so on.

But when these overlaps and duplications (use of words like "sky" and "azure", "duck egg" and "olive" alone supplying endless hours of fun) there comes a point where I wish that each shade just had a truly individual name like Arthur or Nancy. I know this is why we have BS and FS and RAL and RLM numbers, but numbers are hard for the human mind to associate with shades.

If someone said to me, that Hellcat you are building, make it Harriet and Peter camo on top, Julie underneath, and a ring of Bertie around the nose, somehow it would all seem much easier...

[Chuck1945]

And therein lies my confusion - I have no idea of the US equivalents of the marks of FAA Martlet/Wildcat - probably should have checked

Martlet (Wildcat) I-IV were all built by Grumman. After Grumman's F4F-4 production, Grumman switched to the Hellcat and Wildcat production was changed over to Eastern Aircraft, the WWII aircraft production part of the auto maker General Motors. Eastern produced the FM-1 and FM-2 (Wildcat V and VI). While Grumman built the Wildcat I-IV, these did not all have direct USN equivalents.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Chuck1945

[John @ WEM]

Our Colourcoats Bronze Green is matched to the sample from Monogram, while our Dull Dark Green is matched to a sample provided by Dana Bell.

[Fernando]

Hi, Nick,

34036 looks a lot like model paint RLM70.

Fernando

[Spitfires Forever]

So is it safe to say that interior green will work for the FM versions, zinc chromate green for the Mk IV Grumman aircraft and Euro green for the Thunderbolt? I think I am getting one of those "color crisis" headaches again!

Cheers

[Jennings Heilig]

Part of the reason might be that although they are different colours I doubt that many people would be able to discern a visual difference between them from extant paint samples on an airframe or impressions given by colour photographs. Both colours are drastically affected by any blue or yellow shift in the photographic image.

Precisely! Which is why I chuckle with delight at the "experts" who argue endlessly about the precise shade, hue, and tone of every scrap of Luftwaffe camouflage colors on Fw190s and Me262s. It just makes me giggle...

[Fernando]

So is it safe to say that interior green will work for the FM versions, zinc chromate green for the Mk IV Grumman aircraft and Euro green for the Thunderbolt? I think I am getting one of those "color crisis" headaches again!

Cheers

Interior Green for Eastern, Bronze Green/DDG for Grumman (up to first block Hellcat production) and Thunderbolt, yes.

"F4F-3 / F4F-4, Wildcat. Cockpit: FS 34058 Bronze Green. Some may have been painted FS 34151. Bronze Green is the first choice. See the Squadron F4F Walk Around. The Aero Detail No. 22 also has some good photos. The inside of the engine cowling and main gear bay were Light Gray, as was the interior of the fuselage all the way back to the tail. Tri-color aircraft would have had Insignia White wheel bays (cutout for the tire). The only area that was Bronze Green was the pilot’s portion of the cockpit above the 'Floor'. The fuel tank under the cockpit was light gray or black with an interior green supporting structure. The area below the floor was Interior Green. Tom Cheek who fought the Japanese at Midway says that he painted his cockpit red to keep him alert! Anything is possible." (Credit to William Reece, I think, oft quoted by 'Dad)

Fernando

[Nick Millman]

Interior Green for Eastern, Bronze Green/DDG for Grumman (up to first block Hellcat production) and Thunderbolt, yes.

"F4F-3 / F4F-4, Wildcat. Cockpit: FS 34058 Bronze Green. Some may have been painted FS 34151. Bronze Green is the first choice. See the Squadron F4F Walk Around. The Aero Detail No. 22 also has some good photos. The inside of the engine cowling and main gear bay were Light Gray, as was the interior of the fuselage all the way back to the tail. Tri-color aircraft would have had Insignia White wheel bays (cutout for the tire). The only area that was Bronze Green was the pilot’s portion of the cockpit above the 'Floor'. The fuel tank under the cockpit was light gray or black with an interior green supporting structure. The area below the floor was Interior Green. Tom Cheek who fought the Japanese at Midway says that he painted his cockpit red to keep him alert! Anything is possible." (Credit to William Reece, I think, oft quoted by 'Dad)

Fernando

Bronze Green is nothing like 34058, despite the fact that it is repeatedly cited as an equivalent. The difference between the two colours as measured is no less than 16.7 where <2.0 = a close match. I wouldn't even describe it as approximate, de-saturated, faded or a variant. Rather than 34058 you might as well choose any green. FS 34058 doesn't include the same pigments that Bronze Green contains. It is a Munsell blue-green, containing phthalo blue and green pigments.

As stated above there is no useful 595b equivalent. All the FS 595b greens are either too olive or too blue.

[Fernando]

Bronze Green is nothing like 34058, despite the fact that it is repeatedly cited as an equivalent. The difference between the two colours as measured is no less than 16.7 where <2.0 = a close match. I wouldn't even describe it as approximate, de-saturated, faded or a variant. Rather than 34058 you might as well choose any green. FS 34058 doesn't include the same pigments that Bronze Green contains. It is a Munsell blue-green, containing phthalo blue and green pigments.

As stated above there is no useful 595b equivalent. All the FS 595b greens are either too olive or too blue.

Hi, Nick,

Agreed. FS 34058 comes in the original post by Mr. Reece. I haven't taken it out to keep the integrity in the quoting.

Fernando