Admiral Puff Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 The first Herald to fly was fitted with four Alvis Leonides Major engines. It ended up a one-off, as HP later moved to Darts to try to compete with Fokker's F.27. My interest in it was piqued by the fact that it was finished in Queensland Airlines colours (as it happened, they ended up ordering Friendships). Having recently come by the Maquette rerelease of Frog's offering, I'd like to convert it. Can anyone point me towards anything at all on the aircraft? Google leads me to gazillions of pictures of Dart Heralds, but only a handful of stuff on the Leonides one - a cutaway and half-a-dozen not all that distinct photos. Any leads would be much appreciated; a scale GA drawing would be brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyinoz Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) found this: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald and finally http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...onides%20herald Dave you beat me to it! I deliberated too long before deciding to buy that kit! He who hesitates is lost Edited April 23, 2012 by wallyinoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philbky Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 The first Herald to fly was fitted with four Alvis Leonides Major engines. It ended up a one-off, as HP later moved to Darts to try to compete with Fokker's F.27. The first HP3 Herald to fly with Leonides engines was not a one off. Two prototypes were built and flew with Leonides engines, G-AODE on August 25 1955, G-AODE on August 3 1956. Both were converted to HP7 Dart Herald 100 standard with RR Dart engines. G-AODE suffered a catastrophic engine failure of its starboard Dart engine which caused a fire which burned through the wing August 30, 1958 en route to display at the Farnborough airshow. Flown by H G Hazelden DFC, a member of the inaugural class at the Empire Test Pilots' School, the aircraft with 8 passengers, including Hazelden's wife, crash landed in a field - all survived without injury due to Hazelden's "exceptional skill and airmanship". The belly landing in a small field was achieved despite the intense fire burning through the wing, the field being surrounded by 80ft trees, having to fly under power lines and the field being obstructed by a large farm roller. As an 11 year old at the time the story of this accident, in a particularly bad year for British aviation accidents, struck me as being the sort of tale W E Johns might have put together for Biggles. Subsequently the second prototype was re-registered G-ARTC in 1961. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Admiral. This takes me back in time. I saw the Handley Page Herald fly at the 1956 Farnborough Air Show, H G Hazelden was one of the pilots flying the aircraft, I still have the Airshow Programme, price One Shilling. They were great times. Robin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garryrussell Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 It was intended that both version would be produced which is why they were called the Herald and the Dart Herald At the time it was at the planning stage HP asked around and it was always considered a turbo prop version might be made in the future At the time no one wanted the T/P version and there was interest for about 100 Herald so the Leonidas version was built However by the time that was actually flying the Viscount has shown it's stuff and the Friendship was being built and the aviation industry had shifted their interest. The square front door was designed at the request of Queensland Airlines to fit a standard wool bale. The two types were on offer after the Dart Herald was flying but in the end they abandoned the Leonidas version and converted the second prototype too The asymmetric engine nacelles of the Dart Herald was the result of moving the engines outboard whilst retaining the undercarriage position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philbky Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 It was intended that both version would be produced which is why they were called the Herald and the Dart Herald It was slightly more complex than that - at least for HP. Basically the HP3 Herald was an outgrowth of the Miles Marathon. The Herald was really the result of straight line thinking at a time when the Dart was still revolutionary. Whilst the Herald garnered an initial order book of 29 aircraft prior to first flight in August 1955 and looked set fair to be a DC3 replacement, the time lag between 1st and 2nd prototypes let Fokker do the rounds with their F27 Friendship, which first flew in November 1955 and beat the Herald in terms of payload and speed. Dutch "out of the box" thinking basically won the day as all the Herald orders were cancelled, Queensland and TAA transferring their allegiance to Fokker, the remaining Colombian order being frustrated due to currency problems. When the Herald started to lose orders to the F27 there was a major rethink at HP. Initially HP announced, circa late 1956, that both the four engined Leonides powered HP3 and the Dart powered HP7 would be produced side by side but a total lack of interest from potential customers, the success of the Fokker sales drive and the 1958 entry into service date of the F27, with no order in sight for either Herald, forced HP to convert both prototypes and abandon the HP3. By the time the Dart powered HP7 first flew in March 1958 The F27 had a healthy order book and an entry into service date of November 1958. The HP7 Dart Herald eventually gained its first order in June 1959 for 3 examples for BEA for their Highlands and Islands services, to replace their DH Herons which were becoming too small. There is some evidence that BEA came under pressure from the Government to help kick start interest in the type. Be taht as it may, BEA would only order the type on a lease from manufacturer basis and the type didn't stay with the fleet for long. Basic shortsightedness and, compared to Fokker, a lack of belief in RR technology cost HP dear. The Herald, for all its ruggedness and good engineering just never recovered from the conservatism of its original designers though it served in many parts of the world and gained a good reputation from its many operators, some being fourth or fifth hand users some 30 years from an individual aircraft's first flight. Here's my favourite Herald photo that I took in Miami in 1988 when the aircraft was 26 years old and after service in Canada and the UK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 The key problem was believing in market surveys: they provided the customers what they asked for, only for the customers to change their minds. The other problem was that the Herald was wider than the F27, thus being more comfortable for the passengers but draggier and less profitable for the operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philbky Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 The key problem was believing in market surveys: they provided the customers what they asked for, only for the customers to change their minds.The other problem was that the Herald was wider than the F27, thus being more comfortable for the passengers but draggier and less profitable for the operators. The truth was that the HP guys didn't do what the Dutch did. Because the HP3 was very much a conventional aircraft the sales effort was much less aggressive than that conducted by Fokker who had to sell both a new aircraft and a new engine in what, to them, was a marketplace they had not been in since the 1930s. Furthermore, there seems to have been an attitude at HP that the Herald was a Reading (i.e. Miles) machine and the company's main effort was concentrated on the Victor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidave4 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 The first Herald to fly was fitted with four Alvis Leonides Major engines. It ended up a one-off, as HP later moved to Darts to try to compete with Fokker's F.27. My interest in it was piqued by the fact that it was finished in Queensland Airlines colours (as it happened, they ended up ordering Friendships). Having recently come by the Maquette rerelease of Frog's offering, I'd like to convert it. Can anyone point me towards anything at all on the aircraft? Google leads me to gazillions of pictures of Dart Heralds, but only a handful of stuff on the Leonides one - a cutaway and half-a-dozen not all that distinct photos. Any leads would be much appreciated; a scale GA drawing would be brilliant. Having worked on both aircraft, the F27 with NZNZC and the Dart Herald with Autair, I can offer a couple of observations. The F27 won in NZ simply because it was such a superior aircraft. The Herald looked like it had been built in a shed, as it in fact had! The F27 technology was a generation ahead of the Herald and the sales/promotion much more professional. The Brits did not help their cause with a bit of political pressure, something that backfired with other equipment too. One interesting point which I assume was the same for all Heralds;- the ones Autair had, although fitted with Darts, still had provision in the wing for the Leonides. That might support the theory that HP planned to build both variants side by side. One airframe developed cracking of the windscreen frame and the parts that HP supplied did not fit. Seems each aircraft was 'bespoke', and HP had to fabricate parts to effect the repair. Almost as if there was in fact no 'production' Herald, just a longish series prototypes! The good old days........! Regards Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garryrussell Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 General arrangements might be hard to find I've had a Flight Sim model on hold for a long time as I can't find three views that match top to side, especially in regard to the engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philbky Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 The Herald looked like it had been built in a shed, as it in fact had! .One interesting point which I assume was the same for all Heralds;- the ones Autair had, although fitted with Darts, still had provision in the wing for the Leonides. That might support the theory that HP planned to build both variants side by side. One airframe developed cracking of the windscreen frame and the parts that HP supplied did not fit. Seems each aircraft was 'bespoke', and HP had to fabricate parts to effect the repair. Almost as if there was in fact no 'production' Herald, just a longish series prototypes! Woodley was a bit of a shed. I once worked for Chris Tarrant's dad who was MD of Huntley Boorne and Stevens who took over the old factory which then passed to Lin-Can. HP certainly did plan to build both types side by side and stated so publicly. At the time it was seen as rather a volte face on the part of HP which had steadfastly stood by the Leonides version until it had no orders. Once the Dart engined version was flying, the Leonides was quietly dropped. With regard to the production, the shortage of orders and the staggered way the orders came in meant that many ancillary items (i.e. other than the major airframe component for which jigs did exist) were individually fashioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 To build a part to be fully interchangeable means expensive hard tooling. This cannot be justified for small batch sizes, as it would raise the price of the product out of reach of the customers. The Herald never had the luxury of orders in large batches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello Kitty Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) Here a beautifully done 1/144 Leonides Herald at Telford 2007: Edited June 15, 2012 by Hello Kitty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 Here a beautifully done 1/144 Leonides Herald at Telford 2007: Thanks for that - didn't know there was one in 1:144! Do you have any more details (which kit, for instance)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garryrussell Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) From what I remember of seeing this before, it's the Welsh model Dart Herald modified. Edited June 16, 2012 by garryrussell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I must plead to guilty for this one and it was converted from the Welsh Models kit. I still have the Macromedia Freehand file for the Queensland decal which I could re scale to 1/96. I must plead to guilty for this one and it was converted from the Welsh Models kit. I still have the Macromedia Freehand file for the Queensland decal which I could re scale to 1/96. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viscount806x Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I must plead to guilty for this one and it was converted from the Welsh Models kit. I still have the Macromedia Freehand file for the Queensland decal which I could re scale to 1/96.I must plead to guilty for this one and it was converted from the Welsh Models kit. I still have the Macromedia Freehand file for the Queensland decal which I could re scale to 1/96. Vince Wasn't the Frog kit 1/72? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Sorry, quite right it was 1/72. Whatever, my decal artwork can be enlarged within reason. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alancmlaird Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Vince....my first ever post on BritModeller, and its a begging one! I am in the process of cutting up a previously-built Frog Herald (waste not want not) to make a Leonides version, and I'd really appreciate a copy of that Freehand file of the QA livery. I am a Freehand user and can scale up to fit. If that is ok with you, how do we do this? And I'd be happy to make the 1/72 scale version available for anyone else if required. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Alan You are very welcome to use the file if I can find it and then copy it. Since 2007 I have changed computer and operating system which will not run my beloved Freehand software. So it will be one step at a time on this one - find, check and then find a way of copying it. I have just taken a break from eating Santa's chocolate and gone through my paper files and found the reference material which I accumulated in 2007. You are quite welcome to this also. I will send a personal message to establish mail contact. Enjoy the day. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMB Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 If you can obtain two Special Hobby 1/72 Percival Pembroke kits, it should not be too difficult to fit the Alvis Leonides engines from these to your Herald, although rather expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Leaving you with a Dart-Pembroke, perhaps with an extended fuselage? Waste not, want not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMB Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Leaving you with a Dart-Pembroke, perhaps with an extended fuselage? Waste not, want not. The 'what if' SIG would love that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viscount806x Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 It was intended that both version would be produced which is why they were called the Herald and the Dart Herald It was slightly more complex than that - at least for HP. Basically the HP3 Herald was an outgrowth of the Miles Marathon. The Herald was really the result of straight line thinking at a time when the Dart was still revolutionary. Whilst the Herald garnered an initial order book of 29 aircraft prior to first flight in August 1955 and looked set fair to be a DC3 replacement, the time lag between 1st and 2nd prototypes let Fokker do the rounds with their F27 Friendship, which first flew in November 1955 and beat the Herald in terms of payload and speed. Dutch "out of the box" thinking basically won the day as all the Herald orders were cancelled, Queensland and TAA transferring their allegiance to Fokker, the remaining Colombian order being frustrated due to currency problems. When the Herald started to lose orders to the F27 there was a major rethink at HP. Initially HP announced, circa late 1956, that both the four engined Leonides powered HP3 and the Dart powered HP7 would be produced side by side but a total lack of interest from potential customers, the success of the Fokker sales drive and the 1958 entry into service date of the F27, with no order in sight for either Herald, forced HP to convert both prototypes and abandon the HP3. By the time the Dart powered HP7 first flew in March 1958 The F27 had a healthy order book and an entry into service date of November 1958. The HP7 Dart Herald eventually gained its first order in June 1959 for 3 examples for BEA for their Highlands and Islands services, to replace their DH Herons which were becoming too small. There is some evidence that BEA came under pressure from the Government to help kick start interest in the type. Be taht as it may, BEA would only order the type on a lease from manufacturer basis and the type didn't stay with the fleet for long. Basic shortsightedness and, compared to Fokker, a lack of belief in RR technology cost HP dear. The Herald, for all its ruggedness and good engineering just never recovered from the conservatism of its original designers though it served in many parts of the world and gained a good reputation from its many operators, some being fourth or fifth hand users some 30 years from an individual aircraft's first flight. Here's my favourite Herald photo that I took in Miami in 1988 when the aircraft was 26 years old and after service in Canada and the UK. Allegedly 30 kts down on the F27 according to an ops man back in 1976 when Air Anglia had one on lease from BAF...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 If you can obtain two Special Hobby 1/72 Percival Pembroke kits, it should not be too difficult to fit the Alvis Leonides engines from these to your Herald, although rather expensive? Thanks - good idea! I have an SH Pembroke in the stash. As Benny Hill said, "Never though of that! Daddy WILL be pleased!" Should be a fairly simple job to cast up a set in resin ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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