John R Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Whilst waitng for something to set on this, my latest exercise in masochism, does anybody know if anybody ever produced a decent decal sheet for this kit? The one in the kit is dire. Failing that does anybody know of decent pictures of the markings and stencils. I've got the Boston Mills book 'Arrow' but it's not much help. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Not sure if there ever was a dedicated decal sheet, wonder if the main insignia can be robbed from an F-104 decal sheet ? What is sure is that this will be an exercise in masochism ! The hobbycraft kit is so far from the real aircraft that a lot of work will be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy72nd Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Arrow Graphics did at least one set but it is OOP, could possibly pick one up on evil bay?? CanMilAir (google this) Decals might have a set, haven't checked for an Arrow lately. If you do a search over on ARC you could find some builds of the Arrow with some handy tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Yes the decals are poor, but considering what I paid for the kit (years ago) and the kit in general, I used what came with it. I did look at the Arrow Graphics sheet, but managed without. If it looks like a duck......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The wooksta V2.0 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Which boxing is it? The early white boxing had dreadful decals but the later black ones had far better decals. In addition, they fixed the error with the actuators on the ailerons (top on the early kits, underneath on later boxings). By all accounts, the kit is apparently a copy of ye olde Aurora one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) Yes it is the early model. I wondered if the later release might have better decals. I also wondered if they corrected any of the other faults beside the actuators. I thought about getting a later one but decided against it. Anyway it's now 'finished' - probably to appear in 'Ready for Inspection' soon Thanks to all who replied John Edited April 12, 2012 by John R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) John, CanMilair do 3 sets for the Arrow. A fourth includes markings for 410 Cougar squadron. If it was ever lucky enough to go ahead.. Oh and by the way I bought my model in the Hobby Center in Ottawa back in 2006 and was the black box with better (much) decals and corrected plastic. I still need to get the finish right on mine. See you Tonight!? www.canmilair.com Edited April 12, 2012 by Paul J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Whilst waitng for something to set on this, my latest exercise in masochism, does anybody know if anybody ever produced a decent decal sheet for this kit?The one in the kit is dire. Failing that does anybody know of decent pictures of the markings and stencils. I've got the Boston Mills book 'Arrow' but it's not much help. John If you're interested, I have that Arrow Graphics decal sheet for the 1/72 Avro Arrow, that has been mentioned ... PM me if you want it. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Craik Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Whilst waitng for something to set on this, my latest exercise in masochism, does anybody know if anybody ever produced a decent decal sheet for this kit?The one in the kit is dire. Failing that does anybody know of decent pictures of the markings and stencils. I've got the Boston Mills book 'Arrow' but it's not much help. John About 90% of Arrow Graphics products are still available,obtain them direct from Howard McLean at: Arrow Graphics R.R. No.1 York, Ontario N0A 1R0, Canada Phone: (905) 692-4921 Here are his 1/72 and 1/48 arrow decals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Hi mates, This is good info, especially since I have the HC 1:72 scale kit in my stash and will someday attempt to build it. This page (and the entire web site) is also quite helpful: Link Unfortunately I have the initial release with the bad exhausts and the aileron actuator fairings on the top of the wings. but these aren't insurmountable problems. The Aurora kit, by the way, was 1:78 scale. HobbyCraft may have used a similar layout, but it's not a direct copy - it's bigger! And of course, HobbyCraft also made a 1:48 version. The daft plan in the back of my mind is to finish my HC CF-105, Airfix TSR.2, and Anigrand F-108 as a trio of "ones that got away." Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Paul J CanMilair do 3 sets for the Arrow. At $20 a set! No thanks - my modelling skills don't justify that sort of expenditure. Oh and by the way I bought my model in the Hobby Center in Ottawa back in 2006 and was the black box with better (much) decals and corrected plastic. Chris(CTModeller) has this boxing and didn't think too highly of the decals See you Tonight!? ???? where were you? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Paul JCanMilair do 3 sets for the Arrow. At $20 a set! No thanks - my modelling skills don't justify that sort of expenditure. Oh and by the way I bought my model in the Hobby Center in Ottawa back in 2006 and was the black box with better (much) decals and corrected plastic. Chris(CTModeller) has this boxing and didn't think too highly of the decals See you Tonight!? ???? where were you? John Couldn't make it after all. Had stuff to prepare for the Poole Show on Saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Hi mates,This is good info, especially since I have the HC 1:72 scale kit in my stash and will someday attempt to build it. More info: http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7970.html I have a model from Hobbicraft in a black box, in principle not such and bad there decal. But it isn't rescued at all from that that by model approximately on the 77 scale. Correction set http://www.mastercasters.co.uk/4.html certainly is very interesting, aching now I can not allow it to itself! B.R. Serge P.S. and Anigrand F-108 Anigrand not so is pleasant to me! I prefer to vacumform and vacumform KR-models(USA) XF-108 at me is: http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_160.html besides I plan to use in my vacumform XF-108 - etced nozzles to GE YJ93 (for XB-70 or XF-108) in 72 scale were also presented here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...topic=234916471 Edited April 13, 2012 by Aardvark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothian man Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) About 90% of Arrow Graphics products are still available,obtain them direct from Howard McLean at:Arrow Graphics R.R. No.1 York, Ontario N0A 1R0, Canada Phone: (905) 692-4921 Here are his 1/72 and 1/48 arrow decals. I thought I had his 1/72 CF-105 decals - but the sheet I have is quite different. 1. It is dated 1986 and no. D-1-72. 2. There are black "markings" for the canopy so perhaps it is for a vacform, solid resin or even the old Aurora kit. But it is labelled as 1/72 and there is no 'recommended' kit given. 3. The new one as shown in the image looks significantly better at a first glance - more blocks (for camera reference points?) for a start. But what I have looks pretty good (without comparing with photos, admittedly). Might be worth knowing there is more than one cultivar if anyone is hunting through the 2/hand decals! Edited April 13, 2012 by Lothian man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I thought I had his 1/72 CF-105 decals - but the sheet I have is quite different.1. It is dated 1986 and no. D-1-72. 2. There are black "markings" for the canopy so perhaps it is for a vacform, solid resin or even the old Aurora kit. But it is labelled as 1/72 and there is no 'recommended' kit given. 3. The new one as shown in the image looks significantly better at a first glance - more blocks (for camera reference points?) for a start. But what I have looks pretty good (without comparing with photos, admittedly). Might be worth knowing there is more than one cultivar if anyone is hunting through the 2/hand decals! By the sounds of it, the sheet you're describing was originally done for the first issue of Astra's excellent vac-form. That resin bit was the tailcone between the two engines and the 'black markings' sounds like the decal 'windows' for the canopy (ala 1/144 kits) if one decided not to use the clear sheet provided to cut your own windows from a template. Howard later revised the sheet and sold it under his own label "Arrow Graphics". Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 More info: http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_7970.html I have a model from Hobbicraft in a black box, in principle not such and bad there decal. But it isn't rescued at all from that that by model approximately on the 77 scale. Correction set http://www.mastercasters.co.uk/4.html Wish I had seen this before starting However the correction set is £17.95 + £5 packing - Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothian man Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) By the sounds of it, the sheet you're describing was originally done for the first issue of Astra's excellent vac-form. That resin bit was the tailcone between the two engines and the 'black markings' sounds like the decal 'windows' for the canopy (ala 1/144 kits) if one decided not to use the clear sheet provided to cut your own windows from a template. Howard later revised the sheet and sold it under his own label "Arrow Graphics".Scott Getting warmer, evidently! Yes, that would make good sense. That's indeed the "canopy" on my sheet. There is a difference from your description, in that my sheet came on its own with no resin bit. I think by the time I got it the Hobbycraft kit had come out (which is why I bought it). I imagine that the separate marketing of the AG transfer sheet was aimed at that. Horrible thing (the 1/72 Hobbycraft kit I mean - bought about 1988-92). I'm very impressed by what some of you have managed to do with it!! One other reason I never got to build my Hobbycraft kit at the time (i.e. apart from losing the will to live when I opened the box) was that something seemed wrong - the Arrow Graphics transfers seemed as if designed for a different kit (as, indeed, you confirm) when compared with the Hobbycraft transfers. I wondered at the time if the Hobbycraft kit had been a copy of an off-scale "fit the box" Aurora kit at something like 1/80 scale (which may explain Aardvark's comment about - I assume - a 1/77 scale) whereas the transfers were designed for a correctly scaled 1/72 kit such as, indeed, the Astra vacform. But I never got to the bottom of it at the time and never returned to the matter. It may simply be that the Hobbycraft kit is indeed 1/72 but the Arrow Graphics transfers are more accurate than the Hobbycraft transfers. Perhaps someone can comment? In any case the only real problem, assuming that most of the markings look about right, would be the wing walks and those are black lines so easily redone if need be. Edited April 13, 2012 by Lothian man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) (which may explain Aardvark's comment about - I assume - a 1/77 scale) OK! Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow 15240/72=211,66666mm My model CF-105 Arrow have Wingspan: ~209,5mm But!!! My model has an insert along a fuselage near 8.5 mm 209,5-8,5=201mm real Wingspan Hobbycraft model. 15240/201=75,82 scale on wingspan Hobbycraft model. It is quite fair to ask a question from where I took scale 77? And it is arithmetic-mean scale! Because the cross-section insert on length of a fuselage demands more than 20 mm (I already and don't remember how many) and thus the model scale on length leaves somewhere in around the 80th scale. That is the model is shorter at length and is less short on scope but it is in any case short. Photos of model enclosed in drawings from L+K (and I didn't have 9 years ago others, but they are increased to 72 scales on Wingspan) will be provided by me, but slightly later. Here are his 1/72 and 1/48 arrow decals. By the way whether it seems here present that dark blue color of a circle of the Canadian identification mark isn't similar to that color a little that is given in decal? And maple leaf too!!!! B.R. Serge Edited April 14, 2012 by Aardvark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) OK!Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow 15240/72=211,66666mm My model CF-105 Arrow have Wingspan: ~209,5mm But!!! My model has an insert along a fuselage near 8.5 mm 209,5-8,5=201mm real Wingspan Hobbycraft model. 15240/201=75,82 scale on wingspan Hobbycraft model. It is quite fair to ask a question from where I took scale 77? And it is arithmetic-mean scale! Because the cross-section insert on length of a fuselage demands more than 20 mm (I already and don't remember how many) and thus the model scale on length leaves somewhere in around the 80th scale. That is the model is shorter at length and is less short on scope but it is in any case short. Photos of model enclosed in drawings from L+K (and I didn't have 9 years ago others, but they are increased to 72 scales on Wingspan) will be provided by me, but slightly later. Two points: One ... in the case of the initial Arrow Graphic decal sheet. Howard did the sheet for Hugh Gilliand (Astra Models) when he did the vac-Arrow (http://www.hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/img/ac017.html). At some point between the second and third runs of the vac-form, there was a falling out between the two and Howard (Arrow Graphcs) flogged his decal on it's own. Later on, Howard revised his sheet to the expanded version a shown in previous posts. I believe that revision occurred about the time Hobbycraft put out the initial release of their Arrow. Two ... the scale of Hobbycraft's Arrow. Serge is correct, it's NOT 72nd. Like a lot of start-up companies, HC initially released their version of existing toolings & the Arrow was no exception. The source of their Arrow was allegedly the old Aurora kit, which is defenitly not 1/72, with the surface detail 'burrowed' from the Astra Models kit... which btw ... is still the only true 1/72 Avro Arrow. Unfortunately, Astra is no more ... but I'm sure there are still Arrows are still out there, but you just have to look for them (E-Bay or private sales). As for the scale of the AG decal sheet ... it's 1/72. Scott Edited April 14, 2012 by Scott Hemsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothian man Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Two ... the scale of Hobbycraft's Arrow. Serge is correct, it's NOT 72nd. Like a lot of start-up companies, HC initially released their version of existing toolings & the Arrow was no exception. The source of their Arrow was allegedly the old Aurora kit, which is defenitly not 1/72, with the surface detail 'burrowed' from the Astra Models kit... which btw ... is still the only true 1/72 Avro Arrow. Unfortunately, Astra is no more ... but I'm sure there are still Arrows are still out there, but you just have to look for them (E-Bay or private sales). As for the scale of the AG decal sheet ... it's 1/72.Scott Many thanks to you and to Serge - I've been wondering for years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) Wow! I think my query would generate such a response and so much information. I knew that the kit wasn't that accurate but decided to press on anyway. My last three projects involved lots of corrections and I just wanted to get this one out of the stash and finished. I now have the feeling that this one is going to give me guilt feelings every time I look at it. I didn't check the scale but in the process of trying to find the shape of the canopy transparencies I enlarged the drawing in the 'Arrow' book to match the wingspan of the my model and it indicated that whilst the wingspan seemed near enough (about 4mm short - about 1/75 scale) the fuselage was not undersize in the same proportion, which matches Aardvarks findings. Thanks for the explanation about its origins. I was originally told that it was a 'rip-off' of the Astra kit and that the wing actuators had deliberately put on the upper surface to avoid accusations of copyright infringement. This all makes me long for those early days when I just bought a kit and made it, never dreaming that manufacturers didn'y care about getting it right. John Edited April 14, 2012 by John R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hi mates, Lots of good information here which will certainly help me when I tackle the HC kit. Just for future reference, this is my 1:72 HC kit (first edition): And this is the old Aurora kit: When I surmised that the layout may be similar, I was 100% wrong. They are obviously not similar to one another, as the breakdown in construction is completely different. Can anyone post pictures of the Astra vac kit for comparison? I just physcially measured the wingspan of my unbuilt HC kit, and it is 206mm (each wing measures 103mm and they butt up against one another on the aircraft centerline). Length (tip of nose probe to end of tail cone) is 334mm. Comparing to the Wiki article (which use the specifications for the Mk.1 prototype), the wingspan should be 211.6mm and the length 329.4mm. So my sample scales out at 1:74 in wingspan, and 1:71 in length. Based on this, I would say that my HC kit is much closer to 1:72 than the old Aurora kit which has been quoted as anywhere between 1:78 and 1:80. 1:78 scale would require a wingspan of 195mm and a length of 305mm - I would have to remove a lot of plastic from the HC kit to get to that size! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I sent this to Bill in an offline discussion, but I felt others might like to see the comparrison and put this against the HC kit. I can only relate the Aurora story as it was conveyed to me by Hugh Gilliand (Astra Models), at the time of Hobbycraft's release. However, I can attest the HC kit was visibly smaller than the Astra kit when compared side-by-side on the display table. Although I no longer have the Astra kit, I do have the scale drawings included with the kit (a perfect fit as I recall) ... I believe done by Howard McLean ('Arrow Graphics'). On the drawings, the actual dimensions specified were as follows:Span; 50' 0" Length: 77" 9.65" (I've seen other lengths in other pubs. so who's right?) Height: 21' 3" According to a downloaded 'Scale converter' ...in 1/72, that works out to: Span ................... 21.17cm Length ................. 32.94 Height ................. 9cm .. the drawings (the '1/72 scale' rule at the bottom of the drawings match the scale ruler offered by 'Scale Aircraft Modelling') measure out as follows: Span: ....................... 21cm Length (incl. probe): .. 33.9cm ...........(less probe): .. 31.4cm Height: ...................... 9.1cm I guess it's a case of "reach your own conclusions" as so frequently occurs in this hobby. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I sent this to Bill in an offline discussion, but I felt others might like to see the comparrison and put this against the HC kit.I guess it's a case of "reach your own conclusions" as so frequently occurs in this hobby. Scott Great stuff, Scott! It always turns out that way, doesn't it? This only reinforces my feeling that the HC kit is not 1:78 scale. If one looks at the drawings, the actual point that is "farthest aft" is the tip of the vertical fin, not the tail cone. This would only add to my measured fuselage length of 334mm. Adding the extra amount to get to the fin will make the length closer to your 1:72 scale drawing measurement of 339mm, not farther away, which means closer to 1:72 scale. And neither of your values, in addition to my measurements, are anywhere near a 1:78 scale length of 305mm, even if you take off the nose probe! Let me see if I can figure out how to measure to the fin... I've seen two published values for the length, one for the Mk.1 with the J75 engines, the other for the Mk.2 with the planned Iroquois engines (the latter is a bit shorter). Thanks for including the number without the nose probe, that's a better datum point! I will make other comparison points, such as where the intakes and wings are, etc. since these could be considerably off even if the overall length is close (I learned this with my Trumpeter Lightning!) This is likely the cause for all the different opinions. The wingspan is for sure undersize. Reading John's last post, where he estimates the wingspan as 4mm undersize, we have another data point that correlates with my measurement (5.5mm undersize). None of this, of course, address any other issues like shape...that's where I think the bigger problems are. Since we'll probably never get another injection-moulded CF-105, I'd like to make mine as close as possible, so this exercise is not just academic for me! Cheers, Bill Edited April 16, 2012 by Navy Bird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Actually the closer you look the more there is to find wrong. The nose is tilted 10deg nose down and I just noticed that in the model the fuselage widens towards the intakes whereas the drawing shows that it does not. For definitive Dimensions have a look at this. It's for the J75 version John Edited April 15, 2012 by John R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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