Has Anyone Ever Seen A Gray Brummbar?

[The Chels]

Hi Guys,

I have the Tamiya Brummbar kit and would like to do something different with it. I have seen many different camo schemes on the Brummbar but never a panzer gray scheme. Has anyone seen one?

Thanks!

Andy

[alanmac]

Hi Andy

No, never seen one.

Using grey as a colour had been taken over by the use of the three or two colour schemes so often seen.

Also depending on what time frame/version you are modelling the anti magnetic coating Zimmerit would have been used on it.

Here is a reference site on the Sturmpanzer

Sturmpanzer site

Hope its of help.

Alan

[smuts]

HI, not sure about Brummbars being grey depends on when production finished but I've got refs on KingTigers & Ferdinhands in grey or red primer, but this is in the final weeks of the war with Grey still being in large stockpiles, but I'd stick with either just the base dark yellow or tricolour schemes..

Andy.

[Panzer Vor!!!]

You could i suppose do one from a armour school in the last days of ww2, ive seen pics of tigers in green tigers with different features to get them running so its possiable a hetzer was painted grey but be ready if you show it to get grilled by the rivet counter mafia!!!!!

[Mike]

I've got Dads203 here at the moment, and he says that the only Brummbar he has seen in grey is at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds, because they saw fit to paint all their captured German armour in Light Aircraft Grey or some equivalent.

[Andy K]

The Tamiya Brummbar is an early one (around 1943 off the top of my head) so it would have had the dark yellow base rather than grey HOWEVER it's your model so paint it how you want. The use of grey primer was mainly toward the latter stages of WW2 when paint supplies were critically low. I think the Jagdtiger in Bovingdon is a good example as I'm sure that's in primer grey with dark yellow spots.

[Panzer Vor!!!]

yes the jagdtiger is in grey and seeing as i help out their i should have remembered it

[alanmac]

I seriously doubt that the Jagdtiger painted in the Bovington Tank Museum is either the original colour or the correct ones.

I'd also be interested to see these colour images, of King Tigers and Ferdinands in Grey and Red primer as I've yet to come across them

Alan

Edited April 5, 2012 by alanmac

[The Chels]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate it!

Andy

[Wayne rc]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate it!

Andy

As has been mentioned the Tamiya Brummbar is a 1943 production,

you could try a heavy overspray of dk green and brown,

some vehicles in the unit applied camo perio were painted in a

way that hardly any dk yellow.

Or imagine an old veteran brummbar, being returned to service

after being rebuilt with heavy damage to its original zimmerit

and in early 1945 with the war now on German soil and the Brummbar being an urban

vehicle an overspray of pz grey with old camo showing through,

paint shortages etc.

Well who could disprove such an approach, just because there may

be no photos doesnt mean it didnt happen.

[Andy K]

Well who could disprove such an approach, just because there may

be no photos doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Exactly!

[alanmac]

Why not paint it blue with red spots. Who's to say because there isn't photographic evidence it never happened .......

[Wayne rc]

Why not paint it blue with red spots. Who's to say because there isn't photographic evidence it never happened .......

Ok ha ha, got the point, but there has been talk or rumour of late use of earlier paints

ie pz grau and feld grau,

Re built tanks would have been less regulation than new production,

down in Czech land ie skoda and tatra, it seems that prewar czech paints were

used when RAL stocks ran out.

MAN MNH DB Vomag Henschel etc were ordered to apply paint saving camo

at the factory late 44 onward, other firms would have probably had less new paints.

Heavy weapons flak etc was being painted pz gray. And there are photos of these

[smuts]

Hi guys,

I seriously doubt that the Jagdtiger painted in the Bovington Tank Museum is either the original colour or the correct ones.

I'd also be interested to see these colour images, of King Tigers and Ferdinands in Grey and Red primer as I've yet to come across them

Alan

Hi Alan, can't really say the quote with the King tigers gives them as being primer colour...but it could just as easily be overall SignalBraun its the old story of B&W interpretation again, the Ferdinands are a different mater though as the pics show them with assembly chalk marks on the superstructure & highlighted welds...I'll try & scan upload them later (famous last words). The JagdTiger at Bovington is strange to see in that colour I agree & I Never knew the Germans used a grey primer on the armour either!

Why not paint it blue with red spots. Who's to say because there isn't photographic evidence it never happened .......

you never Know..........

Andy.

[alanmac]

Hi Alan, can't really say the quote with the King tigers gives them as being primer colour...but it could just as easily be overall SignalBraun its the old story of B&W interpretation again, the Ferdinands are a different mater though as the pics show them with assembly chalk marks on the superstructure & highlighted welds...I'll try & scan upload them later (famous last words).

Andy.

Hi Andy

Sorry if I misunderstood/misquoted your first post in which you said about references of the King Tigers and Ferdinands. Your statement "I've got refs on KingTigers & Ferdinhands in grey or red primer" led me to believe these were in colour as you sounded confident of their colour scheme. As you know it's totally impossible to verify any true life colour from a black and white photograph. So, sorry any B&W's references simply don't prove the case in my opinion.

As for the Ferdinands, there is a series of B&W photos floating about showing the last one built I believe, with writing all over its red primer in the factory which once the photos had been taken was painted and sent out with the others. Is that the one you refer to.

which Cyber Hobby did a special of

As all of these were either lost in battle or returned to be turned into Elephants with bow machine gun, zimmerit and other required updates I doubt very much if one as you described it was rushed into service to defend the Reich as is the usual reason given for these AFV's to be seen.

As I've said before, any model can be finished how the modeller chooses to, it is after all theirs to do so as they wish.

Happy Modelling.

Still like to see the pictures though as I've just got the Dragon Premium Edition of the Ferdinand and I'm gathering as much information on it as I can. It was of course a disaster as regards its design and purpose but there is something about the old brute that appeals.

Alan

Edited April 28, 2012 by alanmac

[Panzer Vor!!!]

the borders are under pressure from the russains in the east the allies in the west back to germany comes damaged tanks for repair and refit but whats this no paint!!!! all the yellows gone !!!! what now !!! quick lads paint it grey its all wev e got god knows when we,ll get more of the yellow if ever.

tanks in armour schools and training battalions were used at the end drew near but these were not new models rather old vehicles and if the colour didnt match offical orders then what do you do ??? wait for paint to arrive or just get on with the job .

[alanmac]

the borders are under pressure from the russains in the east the allies in the west back to germany comes damaged tanks for repair and refit but whats this no paint!!!! all the yellows gone !!!! what now !!! quick lads paint it grey its all wev e got god knows when we,ll get more of the yellow if ever.

tanks in armour schools and training battalions were used at the end drew near but these were not new models rather old vehicles and if the colour didnt match offical orders then what do you do ??? wait for paint to arrive or just get on with the job .

What no paint left.....

Yes none left, mine Herr we've plenty of rolls of wallpaper though.

Good, stick that on , but remember to line the pattern up, you don't want the Allies thinking we're getting sloppy just because we are losing.....

Edited April 28, 2012 by alanmac

[cheeley]

What no paint left.....

Yes none left, mine Herr we've plenty of rolls of wallpaper though.

Good, stick that on , but remember to line the pattern up, you don't want the Allies thinking we're getting sloppy just because we are losing.....

"Himmel, Arsch und Wolkenbruch! These rolls are all Anaglypta! The war is lost!"

Chris

[Wayne rc]

As has been pointed out, many vehicles from training units etc, were pressed into service

and many older tanks were in service in the final weeks.

IIRC there was a unit of Ferdinands or Elefants south of Berlin, cant remember the units name,

but I believe it had about a dozen.

I would be interested if someone could shed some light.

I was led to believe that some 90 ferdinands were built and that

most were committed to the Kursk battle in two

independant battalions.

It was always said that after heavy losses that survivors

were retrofitted with an mg and sent to Italy.

How many lost at Kursk? and how many sent to Italy.

Im sure that some were still in Russia in 44.

Where did the dozen or so Berlin unit Ferdinands come

from?

After all there was only about 90 built and that was back

in 42/43.

[D1fuN0]

Hi Andy

I recall a photo years ago of a Brummbar that was in the final days of the war with like three different paint schemes, was undercoat, Pz Grey and the Yellow summer camo i believe and most of the zimmerit was missing. It basically looked like a very unhappy bunny

I stand to be corrected but it was emplaced i think somewhere in Germany and taken out by Firefly's

I have the pic somewhere in the mess that I call a 'filing System'.

I just recall it because it was in a model mag, and the author had reproduced what it may have looked like in a colour plate.

will have a look for you

Steve

[alanmac]

How many lost at Kursk?

Hi

Quite a few Wayne, quite a few.

Ferdinand losses from Russian site

Hope its of interest, just wish I could read Russian.

To be honest the questions you are asking about deployment, losses, divisional history are better posted on somewhere like Missing-Lynx, Axis forum etc. Whilst this is a nice friendly site from my experience and reading posts most modellers here are happy to build models first, with accuracy either being secondary or not worried about. Nothing wrong in that at all, if it's what you enjoy and its what you want from modelling who's to knock it. I've found many well read enthusiasts who have researched such information and detail over on Missing-Lynx and are always willing to help in such matters. It's not my "thing" to be honest. Whilst I like to get things reasonably correct I'm not interested in it to the level these folks are. In many ways they seem more interested in the military history than model making. Again nothing wrong in that, your time, your hobby.

Alan

Edited May 7, 2012 by alanmac

[Wayne rc]

Hi Andy

I recall a photo years ago of a Brummbar that was in the final days of the war with like three different paint schemes, was undercoat, Pz Grey and the Yellow summer camo i believe and most of the zimmerit was missing. It basically looked like a very unhappy bunny

I stand to be corrected but it was emplaced i think somewhere in Germany and taken out by Firefly's

I have the pic somewhere in the mess that I call a 'filing System'.

I just recall it because it was in a model mag, and the author had reproduced what it may have looked like in a colour plate.

will have a look for you

Steve

Very interesting Andy, sounds like that photo may support my speculation of a battered brumbar

with alot of its zimmerit missing, having an overhaul and a random paint job before return to service.

somebody mentioned grey primer, the evidence I have seen for this is a colour pic of a Jagdpanther with an MNH diagonal

stripe factory camo that seems to show light grey stripes showing between the brown green and yellow,

this suggests that as little paint as possible was used.

There are also colous pics of the DB factory after capture with light grey panther hulls on

show with what seems to be RAL 6003 (green) wheels.

In Nov 44 armour and other component firms were ordered to base coat in 6003 olive green,

I doubt that this was always possible, so we could have a panzer with three, ie green grey and red primers.

It is very likely that a new panzer in march/april 45 could have had green wheels, grey hull and a red primer turret,

and maybe a dk yellow or pz grey gun barrel.

And then a sparing use of dk yellow and green in an attempt to be ecomical with the camo.

The point Im making is that if this is the case with new vehicles late war, then God(or a very elderly German)

would be able to say what would be possible with older rebuilds etc.

[Wayne rc]

Hi Alan mac, thanks for the link.

I dig what you are saying, to build a model is a choice between h

historical accuracy and or your own satisfaction and not worry about

exact shades and the rivet counters.

I like to model some tanks after research and attempt to get the turret number

style and camo etc as accurate as evidence allows,

ie I built a Tiger II from Peipers KG and used every available pic to get the ambush

camo looking correctish. But I always use a turret number that doesnt appear in

published pics.

On the other hand I do models based on the sort of speculation

that I have expressed here in this thread.

I join this thread to answer the question is a grey brumbar possible.

And I with the best of my knowledge have answered yes.

Im a a firm believer in models built in the spirit of creative and or

educated speculation.

I have found that armour modelling esp German, suffers from people

being too pedantic or dogmatic.

And then every few years the dogma changes when someone digs up a pic or two

and then a bunch of people run with that ball.

Does anyone on here know that were at least three different shades

of the generic German dk yellow or gelbocker.not inc the various shades meant

for tropical ie DAK use.

Does it really matter, of course not. If your effort of a model pleases you.

Then it is correct as it needs to be.

I have had people say that they like my version of German dk yellow and ask how I get it

like I have some secret knowledge.

But to be honest I have no exact mix ratio, Ive seen original kit and it varies so I dont get

too anal about it.

As long as it is a hobby that we enjoy. Do what you want.

[Andy K]

At the end of the day what was supposed to done regarding the rule book and what actually happened are two different things. You HAVE to take into account that the German tank factories were getting hammered day and night by the Allied bombing, the priority was to get the tanks out to the field so it's a safe bet that anything could have been slapped on to at least cover the metal. Paint factories would also have suffered so stocks would have been in short supply plus the one BIG thing you can ask of the experts is " Were you actually there in 1944/45?".

If you want to be TOTALLY accurate about modelling German armour, pick an actual vehicle that has been well documented and go from there. If you want to build a Brummbar and paint it grey then go right ahead, nobody can say you are wrong.

[Andy K]

Does anyone on here know that were at least three different shades

of the generic German dk yellow or gelbocker.not inc the various shades meant

for tropical ie DAK use.

To be honest I've started painting my German armour in a more mushroom-y colour base coat as someone on Missing-Lynx produced a periscope sight from a StuG that was still in it's box. That was enough evidence for me

Also it makes me laff about people obsessing over exact paint shades cos the weathing process tones down colours anyway....a bit like forking out £30 for highly detailed metal tracks then covering them in mud