Spitfire Mk. Va info & Sqn marking options

[phat trev]

Looking across the www I can find plenty of references to Baders D-B marked Mk.Va but not really any material on other Spitfires of this type (plenty of Mk.Vb info)

I am hoping to find some pics of US marked Spitfires (eagle squadrons) in grey/green camo.

Anyone here know if the Spitfire Mk.Va was allocated to US squadrons?

[gingerbob]

I don't believe it was, generally. Bear in mind that only 94 were built, with a handful of Mk.I/II that might have been brought up to Va standards later.

bob

[Edit: ahh, but see subsequent post...]

Edited March 20, 2012 by gingerbob

[Test Graham]

Spitfire The History quotes 100, but I haven't checked each or against Air Britain's list. Certainly they did serve in other squadrons. At least three were allocated to 64 Sq, but ended up in 603 which was at the same base at the time (I suspect a change-over of all the units' aircraft. X4665 "Earl Shilton" becoming "Royal Scot" on transfer, W3130 becoming "Edinburgh". There must be a strong chance of other dedicated Mk.Va, but I haven't gone through the whole of "Gifts if War" to find them.

STH should give the units with these aircraft (sadly it does not list the Mk.Va separately, which would make this a much easier job). The Fighter Squadrons of the RAF may, if you are lucky, provide codes. Sadly, it only indexes the Mk.V not subvariants, but for 603 Sq it lists W3111, W3123, W3130, W3213, W3369, X4663, X4665, X4669, but no codes. Taking these serials back to GOW there is W3110 "Holyrood" (which did later serve with the 52nd FG USAAF), W3123 "Walter McPhail", W3213 "Cecil McKay" also to 52nd FG, W3243 "The Falkirk Bairn" but that's a Mk.Vb, X4469 "Kaffraria II" later "Sir Walter". R7300 was "Scottish Queen" but it is suggested that it didn't carry the name. Edit: R7259 "Aitch Aitch" became "The Bairns" with 603 Sq.

Time to lean on your local library?

However, as none of these have codes how about X4668 ZP.E "Burbage", shot down 27 June 1941 killing Sq Ldr Mungo-Park? R7364 "Brycheiniog" which was KL.D with 54 Sq.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Graham Boak

[Dave Fleming]

602 had some VAs as well, I'll check the book to see if there are any code matches

[phat trev]

Thanks for the research info guys. it really is damn hard to find good solid data on the type!

[Test Graham]

There were a few more photographs in GOW - I haven't checked the entire text!

R7339 Mah Tai with 54, Waverly with 603

R7226 Jamshedpur Golmusi with 54

R7263 BRC Stafford II with 145

R7279 King's messenger KL.S with 54

R7295 The Pastures KL.U with 54

X4908 Southern Railways Invicta 3 with ATA Training Unit.

[-Neu-]

Apparently the type was in service with the No. 164 Argentine squadron as well... so says the back of my AZ Va box.

[gingerbob]

Well, my apologies- now that I look I see that my off the cuff answer was somewhat wrong. Some time ago I analyzed the individual records to create a "map" of squadron allocations and transfers. This was far more successful than I anticipated, though not utterly definitive. At any rate, I have a note (to self) that some of the Vas were transferred to the USAAF, some in Aug '42, some in Nov, though what they did subsequently I'll have to investigate. [Edit: At first glance, the ones I do see immediately mostly were with 52nd FG. I'll report back.] So maybe you'll get your grey/green US Va after all! (By August '42 only one RAF squadron was on the Va, and some were transferred to the Admiralty, too. The Eagle Squadrons became US 4th FG in late September, and they were on the Vb, though possibly had a few Va for training, etc.)

Graham, Supermarine counted 94 Vas produced, one of which was (as far as I can tell) the Mk.I that had been put on floats. I guess they didn't count it as delivered until after it had been returned to non-floating configuration. I found little evidence of many Mk.I/IIs being brought up to Va standards- pretty much the ones documented as such. This makes sense- the 8-gun armament was passe, and the Va was only done at all in order to get some Merlin 45s into service as quickly as possible.

I'll try to summarize Va use without twisting everyone's brains into knots: (one other significant point- in some cases Vas were soon joined by Vbs, and while it appears that some squadrons had both for some time, it may be that the bs were the ones doing most or all of the ops)

In May '41 the Va was issued to three squadrons. 64 began to get them but moved, handing over to 603, and 611 and 54 were also equipped. The first operational loss recorded by the "Fighter Command Losses" series is 54 Sqn on 4 June. All three squadrons were operating from either Hornchurch or Rochford. [Note: there are some lovely color photos in the Life magazine archives that come up every few weeks on one forum or another, which show a 54 Sqn Va.]

611 handed their aircraft to 145 Sqn (who also had some Vb) at Merston in early July. 54 and 603 also added some Vbs in July. When 145 moved later in the month 41 Sqn took their place and their aircraft.

[Note: 145's S/L Stan Turner continued to fly Va W3185 on ops in July while the rest of the squadron were using Vbs. The influence of his mentor, Bader? Interestingly, this aircraft was flown to Eastleigh (Supermarine's home) on July 17 by a Sgt Twitchett. I wonder if he was sent to get some metal ailerons installed?]

In August, 54 swapped with 403 Sqn (Mk.IIa) while at Martlesham Heath (for training?). I suspect that when they came back they were primarily flying Vbs on ops, though they kept some Vas for a while. There are no further Fighter Command (operational) losses of Vas after August, so that pretty much does it in terms of its operational career.

In October 130 Sqn got some, along with Vbs, and 145 Sqn the same in late Nov. 54 Sqn also handed their aircraft (Vbs, but also 5 Vas) to 124 Sqn in mid Nov, and they in turn passed 4 of the Vas on to 81 Sqn the next month (who also collected Vas from other sources). Most of these later cases were squadrons that had been flying the Mk.II (or Mk.I, or Hurricane) and were either in a backwater or were on their way to Vbs. There continued to be no more than 3 squadrons at a time on the Va (with or without Vbs) until reduced to two (or possibly one, 164 Sqn at Skeabrae) in June '42. (Some Vas went to Met flights from May.) As mentioned already, starting in August Vas were passed to the USAAF and the Admiralty. A few also went to anti-aircraft calibration units from October. 602 Sqn was the last RAF squadron to have them, and they were gone sometime between November and Jan '43.

bob

[Edited for clarity and to remove some questionable numbers.]

Edited March 20, 2012 by gingerbob

[Seahawk]

.. Taking these serials back to GOW ...

What's GOW please?

[Test Graham]

X4908 from my above posting was a Mk.Ia converted to a Va. I haven't tried chasing any other.

What you describe is Fighter Command's habit of retaining the latest aircraft in the fighting area whilst rotating the squadron personnel out for rests. 94 (or whatever) aircraft is about right for initially maintaining three units in the front line.

Talking of Admiralty, I've a feeling that the photo of the RAF's Fw190 being escorted by two "Seafires" after a visit to Yeovilton actually showed two FAA Spitfires, a Mk.I and a Mk.V. I think it's a Mk.Va - not sure from memory. So you could have slime and sewage camouflage with yellow codes....if you could find yellow codes. Aha! It's in Sturtivant's FAA aircraft. R7193 Y2.W is a Mk.1a, and L1096 Y1.M is a Mk.Va. From the list of FAA Spitfires there are at least seven other L/N/P serials described as Mk.Va, hence presumably conversions from earlier types. The total must be well over 100.

GOW is Gifts of War - full title given in post 3. Honest.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Graham Boak

[VoyTech]

Can't help with American squadrons, but in my notes I have reference to the following Mk VAs in operational service that I have seen photos of:

K9871 in 303 Sqn (Polish) as RF-P

164 Sqn aircraft:

R7022 FJ-F,

R7127 FJ-A,

R7335 FJ-N,

W3114 FJ-K.

The last two featured in one of the Classic Warbirds books by Ventura (don't recall which one), while W3114 is, I think, shown in a photo in GOW, although I recall there was something wrong with the caption.

K9871 RF-P has a thin American link as it was flown on ops by P/O Boleslaw Gladych, who later excelled as a P-47 pilot in the 56th FG.

PS. Most of the references allegedly showing Bader's Mk VA do in fact depict his earlier Mk II P7966.

Edited March 20, 2012 by VoyTech

[gingerbob]

What you describe is Fighter Command's habit of retaining the latest aircraft in the fighting area whilst rotating the squadron personnel out for rests. 94 (or whatever) aircraft is about right for initially maintaining three units in the front line.

Talking of Admiralty, ...L1076 Y1.M is a Mk.Va. From the list of FAA Spitfires there are at least seven other L/N/P serials described as Mk.Va, hence presumably conversions from earlier types. The total must be well over 100.

Is L1076 correct? I have it destroyed during the BofB, but it may have been resurrected.

I edited my last post to correct a number of things. I didn't mean to imply that there weren't conversions of earlier marks to Va standard, just that I didn't see much evidence of a bunch that didn't get documented, as is sometimes suggested. You might say "Well, if they didn't get documented what evidence would you find?" but the best would be I/IIs going to squadrons that are otherwise flying Vs. Looking back at the individual histories, without careful cross checking, I see about 20 Mk.I and 37 Mk.IIa at the most, not counting the PDU aircraft that were fitted with Merlin 45/46. In light of the 90-some built as such, that's a fair boost to the Va population. I have not investigated when these conversions were happening (though I probably will now!); it might be a frustrating exercise because there are plenty of cases where Spit the Hist puts the event at a time that doesn't make sense with the flow of squadron assignments. In some cases it appears to be fairly late, and it probably tended to happen when an aircraft was in for major repair or servicing and needed an engine change anyway. The real point is that the Va was a temporary boost to the early V population, and the Vb was the configuration really desired (pending the c, that is). This is demonstrated by the fact that its operational (front-line) career only lasted about 3 months at the most.

Initially you're right (in the case of the Va) about the aircraft remaining in the hot spot while the squadrons rotated, but subsequently Vas, like other "obsolescent" versions, were given to squadrons converting from earlier Marks or other aircraft, or new-born squadrons working up. Thus they had brief service with a particular squadron before the squadron re-equipped with (generally) Vbs and were then declared operational.

For US service, Va use was undoubtedly restricted to training, with a possible exception of a few TacR, but that too was most likely in a training capacity. The same, of course, was true of Admiralty Spits.

bob

[Edgar]

Now, here's a funny thing; according to Vickers, in 1976, they built 1367 Va, 4477 Vb, & 635 Vc.

[Test Graham]

Is L1076 correct? I have it destroyed during the BofB, but it may have been resurrected.

bob

Bob, are you doubting my, err, typing? L1096 any better? Original modified.

Like you, I suspect that many of these "conversions" are later than the front-line use of the new-build aircraft, and are possibly just to "use up" spares at any given convenient time and place. The RAF probably was running low on Merlin III and XIIs by 1943. I find it difficult to see what important difference there would be between a Mk.I and a Mk.V for RN fighter training, but the suggestion is that they arrived as the specific types rather than being converted whilst in RN service.

[Jan Polc]

Maybe it be useful - I was designing decals for AZ model kit in 1/72 and for Avalon decals in 1/48 scale some years ago. I remember problems I had with photo references on this subtype, even if I consulted with Robert Humphreys.

In the end I found some photos and profiles in Ventura´s Classic Warbirds No. 6 (if I remember good the number) - A/C of 164 Argentine British sqn. Aircraft coded FJ-K has two possible serials, as on the photo is visible last digit - 0, which according the production list resulted in two possibilities - R7060 or R7220. Maybe I am wrong...

Third reference can be found in Modeller´s Datafile Spitfire - part 1 Merlin engined, where is a photo of Spit Mk. Va, coded R-H, which is now preserved in Australia, I think.

There is part of Avalon decals instructions with both No. 164 sqn aircraft. Kit by AZ model and decals in 1/48 by Avalon are still available I think.

Jan

[Kari Lumppio]

There were a few more photographs in GOW

...

R7295 The Pastures KL.U with 54

...

Hello!

I guess GOW is a book title but what it stands for? I am interested about the Spitfire KL.U photo as it was (is) also my three letter code to sign maintenance tasks.

Thanks is advance,

Kari

[Edgar]

I guess GOW is a book title but what it stands for? I am interested about the Spitfire KL.U photo as it was (is) also my three letter code to sign maintenance tasks.

"Gifts of War," by Henry Boot & Ray Sturtivant; it's published by Air-Britain, ISBN 0-85130-248-3, and originally cost £55.

Edgar

[GrzeM]

GOW = Gifts of War.

[Test Graham]

R7060 was "Southampton II", and did serve with 164 Sq. It was a converted Mk.I.

R7260 was "The Bristol Air Raid Warden" but did not serve with 164. It was not described as a converted example.

The photo of R7295 shows it before allocation to the squadron - sorry.

[VoyTech]

R7260 was "The Bristol Air Raid Warden" but did not serve with 164. It was not described as a converted example.

Graham, not that I have anything against your, err, typing, but Jan said R7220 ('Bournemouth II') and that one did serve with No. 164 Sqn.

[Test Graham]

Definitely not my typing that time.... perhaps I need more sleep.

R7220 was a Mk.Va and served with a wide range of users including the USAAF, ending up as a ground instructional airframe in France.

It is interesting to see how much information there is around about these rare aircraft.