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Kwakou61

Airfix Sunderland

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box.jpg

OK, this will be my first contribution and I hope this post is how it is supposed to be. If not, my apologies in advance!

The plan is to try my hand on the old Airfix Sunderland kit and see if I can manage to turn it into a nice model. That is what we're all after right?

I noticed that I'm certainly not the first to build this kit, on this board either and will gratefully make use of the knowledge and findings of my predeccesors. For which I hereby like to thank them very much!

What triggered the imagination was this dramatic photograph below showing the magnificent Sunderland between sea and air. It has something graceful over it I think.

So the dream is to make something similar in a vignette. I hope the dream comes true..

sunderland01.jpg

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Hi mate,

Welcome to Britmodeller. I've got one of these in the stash and agree with you, a very nice aeroplane. Looking forwards to your progress....and your learnings along the way :)

Cheers

Neil

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Always been a softie for the Sunderland, probably because my dad flew in them during WWll

I will enjoy seeing this become a graceful aircraft

Welcome

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I remember buying this from my local toy shop on a Saturday morning and sitting on the path outside my house putting it together(don't ask me why, I don't know), so it must have been summer, and I must have been about 10.

Occasionally certain smells bring this build to mind,(again, don't ask why) :)

I don't remember any of my other childhood builds, just this one, maybe because I was so proud of having such a monster model?

Enjoy and keep us updated.

BB

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Welcome to the forums, Yes another Sunderland :wub::D

What type of vignette are you planning, taking off or landing?

The Sunderland in your photo, I believe is a Canadian one and from what I see in the photo,

the aircraft could be taking off, but also could be just touching down.

What makes me think this is a landing, is the props are all in sync, only done once the aircraft is airborne after take off

For take off, outer engines especially with Pegasus were run at a higher revolution than the inboard, to prevent

propeller damage from the water thrown up.

If you look at the trailing edge the pilot has extended slightly the Gouge flaps to increase

the wing area, quite probable on take off but a definate on landing

I have seen this aircraft and some others like it and have not yet been able to determine if the

aircraft was a transport or pilot training (or both), notice the bow turret glazing plated/painted over

Are you after accuracy or just to build it mostly OOB?

Some technical things to consider

If doing a a take off/landing the upper escape hatch/astro dome was removed and stowed standard

SOP for that.

Rudder was hard left, you can just notice in your photo.

Your photo has the x4 bow guns -would not be mounted during landing/take off for obvious reasons :snorkle:

If you have any queries or photos of a particular area let me know

Regards

Alan

Edited by Mike
Removing repeated photos.

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Thanks for the kind reception all of you guys!

Bill, many of you are far better modellers than me and would do the aircraft and the men who flew it more justice. But I will try my best to make something graceful out of it.

(I love your Wessex by the way, for me that's real modelling..)

Alan, I have followed your Sunderland build with great interest. Are you still working on it?

Much of your research will be incorporated in my model. Thank you! I hope you get some in return with my reports in the future.

The vignette should be something that looks like the photograph and I find it interesting that you are able to tell that the aircraft is landing. I was already wondering about that. So thanks for that too.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I try to find a balance between accuracy and effort. Let's say, I make it as accurate as time and inspiration allows. Too many times a half built model ended up on the 'yet to finish projects' pile because I took on too much work. Therefore I was not planning to do a lot of interior work on this model either and concentrate mostly on the airframe. Since this model is supposed to depict an aircraft in flight most hatches and doors will be closed anyway. And I personally see little point in putting much effort in a great interior that can't be seen. But it can be part of the fun too of course.

The cockpit however will be visible. But since you offered, do you by chance have a picture of the rear part of the cockpit? (the part that can be seen looking through the windscreen head on)

Anyway, thanks for sharing your knowledge of the Sunderland, I appreciate it very much!

Christopher, thanks for the tip about the etched metal sets. The antennae however I'm going to try them myself. That seems fun.. The interior will be kept basic, just to save time.

Cheers,

Ron

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Here is an update for this evening.

Because the clear parts of the portholes are missing (that's the risk buying second hand kits) and the size of the portholes are a little too big I had to think of a way to address both issues.

The idea is to insert larger pieces of acrylate in the fuselage in the area around the portholes. Then after sanding and polishing the new portholes can be scribed in, masked and be done.

The plastic tube is for sticking the model on a rod.

Well, its a start..

sunderland02.jpg

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That sounds like a lot of work - I think I'd live with the oversize portholes and use microscale kristal klear instead - really god stuff and will take a fraction of the time!

GJ

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It is. But I'm not familiar with microscale kristal klear and I can't live with oversized portholes ;)

Thanks for the tip though. I will keep it in mind for the next time.

Cheers,

Ron

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I'll be watching this one! How do you intend to give the impression of the props moving? I'm just curious as I'm doing a Spit (as well as my Defiant) as an experiment with prop bluring as an in flight job. Be interesting to see your approach.

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I'll be watching this one! How do you intend to give the impression of the props moving? I'm just curious as I'm doing a Spit (as well as my Defiant) as an experiment with prop bluring as an in flight job. Be interesting to see your approach.

First off Nobby, I would like you to know that I think you're doing a truly amazing job on your Defiant. Your craftsmanship with the miliput is just... brilliant!

I have no other words for it..

That said, I'm afraid I can't answer your question yet since I'm still looking for the right answer myself.

However, I did do some experimenting with this matter in the past. And my findings were that by far the best result is achieved when the prop is actually spinning (with the aid of a fan for example) When a photograph is taken of a model with spinning prop the image will be just like the photograph of the actual aircraft and you will get the nice blur as seen on the photographs.

But if your goal is to depict it as seen in reality it won't do because there is no blur when looking at a actually moving propeller. Only a kind of faint disk with some colour on the edge.

I have done things with acrylis disks, but it was still not very convincing in my opinion.

So, the only thing of any value I can tell you is that I keep thinking about it and if ever some good solution comes to mind I will let you know.

Cheers,

Ron

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I did some experimenting a while ago using acetate segments (about 30 deg sements) rather than full discs with some clear colours (yellow & black) to give the illusion. It looked much better than full discs, but getting them to stick to the hub was a challenge. If someone could resin mould such items out of clear resin, I'd be interested in some, I just never progressed any further with the idea.

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Ron thanks for your kind words re: the Wessex.

I think I'd use acetate or acrylic sheet for the windows too, I have Krystal Kleer and although it does work it doesnt allow a slight bend as if on a curved fuselage which shaped plastic does

It must be "flying boats landing on the water" time lately

I have a Stranraer to do which I've been giving thought to a dio with her just cutting into the water on her way down to alight (I nearly wrote "On her way to land", not quite what I meant :) )

I have a few pictures of the interior of The RAF Hendon Museum Sunderland if they would be any help to anyone. I took them marvelling at this thing of grace and beauty that my dad went to war in. Only certain parts of the 'plane are accessible but if they help...

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Here are a few pics of my previous efforts.

The Firely and Tracker props actually spin. They look great don't they? But as soon as the fan is switched off they are just motionless propellers in an action scene. At least a little odd I would think.

The Ryan on the other hand has acrylic sheet segments. Like as you described Neil. But mine have not that wow-factor that I'm looking for..

What to do?

Firefly3.jpg

Tracker07.jpg

Tracker02.jpg

Ryan_06.jpg

Bill, the acrylic sheet for windows work fine. I've done it before. But it is indeed a lot of work, the general is right. (I'm still busy sanding) but it works.. I know it works.. right?

As for the pictures, I could use a view on the rear of the cockpit. I already have many pictures of the steering wheel area and instruments, but not the other side.

I don't know what is there. A bulkhead, or holow space?

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That is such a great idea, having the propellars spin with the help of a fan while taking a photograph of the model. :)

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At the museum you are restricted to the space behind the cockpit

You can see the ladder up to the driver's seat, but under the floor there that space has a screen to protect it from prying eyes

5AceHendon257.jpg

I have a few for you here

5AceHendon261.jpg

The view back to the rear turret, the chap might work for the museum (he worked for me, I thought he was real for a second)

5AceHendon255.jpg

Here's the mechanism for hauling depth charges out under the wings, it looks as if it is coupled to both wing racks

5AceHendon252.jpg

further out on the starboard wing the racks are loaded with depth charges

5AceHendon250.jpg

Same under the port wing too

5AceHendon251.jpg

A view of the cabin ceiling

5AceHendon260.jpg

Nothing else any use though sorry

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I have seen this aircraft and some others like it and have not yet been able to determine if the

aircraft was a transport or pilot training (or both), notice the bow turret glazing plated/painted over

You're correct, the Sunderland in the photo is a Canadian - a Sunderland Mk.III of 422 Sqn. to be exact. It was neither a transport nor a training aircraft. 422 Sqn. was attached to RAF Coastal Command.

The nose turrent is mearly turned around, I assume for the same resaon as it was done on the Catalina's/Canso/PBY's etc. Prior to landing, the gun (the MK.III had a single gun in the turret) was removed and stowed inside the aircraft, then the nose turret was turrned around, thus presenting a 'solid' wall to prevent or to reduce possible damage, in the event of an accident upon landing. It was standard practice (in the Cats, anyway) to wait until the aircraft was airborne before retrieving the nose gun from stowage and put it back into it's mountings in the nose turret. It's not unusual to see photos of Sunderlands, on land, with the nose turret turned in.

In the book "RCAF Squadrons and Aircraft" (S.Kostenuk & J. Griffin) there's a photo of that same aircraft - 2*U (s/n EK591) just about to touch down - literally a foot or two above the water. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the two photos were taken on the same occasion, in series. This aircraft had the distinction of scoring the only confirmed U-boat kill for the squadron. At the time, it was piloted by WO2 W.F. Morton.

On a modelling note ... as I've got 2 of these in the stash, I'll be watching the build with great interest.

Scott

Edited by Scott Hemsley

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You're correct, the Sunderland in the photo is a Canadian - a Sunderland Mk.III of 422 Sqn. to be exact. It was neither a transport nor a training aircraft. 422 Sqn. was attached to RAF Coastal Command.

The nose turrent is mearly turned around, I assume for the same resaon as it was done on the Catalina's/Canso/PBY's etc. Prior to landing, the gun (the MK.III had a single gun in the turret) was removed and stowed inside the aircraft, then the nose turret was turrned around, thus presenting a 'solid' wall to prevent or to reduce possible damage, in the event of an accident upon landing. It was standard practice (in the Cats, anyway) to wait until the aircraft was airborne before retrieving the nose gun from stowage and put it back into it's mountings in the nose turret. It's not unusual to see photos of Sunderlands, on land, with the nose turret turned in.

Scott

Hi Scott

Would be interested to see some photos of Sunderlands with Turrets turned in. (And it would only be Mk I/II/ and early III until change in turret)

With respect to your comment on the Turret turned, in on Rons photo, I would have to disagree

I have a side on photo of this aircraft (Sunderland Squadrons of WWII Osprey) and you would see glazing at the rear but there's none.

It's very possible that these photos were taken after the aircraft had been assigned to Number 4 (Coastal)OTU

In the above mentioned book there is a Shorts photo of the Prototype Mk V with the turret covered in at MAEE.

In this photo looking from behind, you can see two observation portals which are not apparent on the in Rons photo if the turret was turned in

(yes they existed on Mk III's)

809081bf.jpg

In all the books I have on the Short Sunderland, there are many photos of Sunderlands taking off with the turret glazing forward

The crew didn't need to turn the turret inward on a Mk I/II/III to remove the single VGO MG, as you can easily access the gun from the opening at the base of the turret (which is how the gunners entered/exited) on all Sunderland Mk's

DSCF2740copy.jpg

51ab695d.jpg

Don't disagree with you on gun removal/ storage prior to landing etc

Regards

Alan

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The Sunderland at the RAF Museum was one of my favorite exhibits - it was great to walk around inside of it and imagine flying in one. Looking forward to this.

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HI Ron

Nice work on your model, had thought of doing similar on my build, but opetd for the tubing

Re Photos

I have Video of the cockpit but I don't think I have any actually panning rearward.

However I can post you some photos applicable to your Mark of Sunderland

On 1st pilots side (port) behind him is the radio station, this is what it looks like

from the rear Not a very good shot I'm afraid (Important note this for a MKV)

DSCF2788copy.jpg

Now it's important to know that the Mk III used the TR1154 Transmitter and R1155 receiver, and those boxy items show only their rear parts

at the the rear of the console (which is only some 40cm wide (about 5.5min 1/72))

Behind the second pilots postion in your version of the Mk III with the Yagi Aerials, is the ASV (Air Surface Vessel)II station.

This is looking at it from the operational side, but you could easily fabricate the area, it was attached to the back (in part) to the pilots seat

DSCF2785copy.jpg

One thing to consider is that this area had black out curtains which surrounded it so you(depending on landing/take off)

could add those which will hide material.

The same is true for the radio station, but only a side blackout curtain

Now if you wish to be accurate in the Mk III Instrument panel, I present this for you perusal (NOTE: this is off an RNZAF Mk III transport version)

1 Genuine Mk III Sunderland Inst panel

Sunderland Mk III Inst panel

I was going to save this until I sorted my build out but, you'll get there before me :lol:

As far as my build goes, yes still going, I am trying hard to complete a RNZAF P-51D for a group build on LSP, so if I concentrate

what little modelling time I get on one, then I should be back to the Sunderland shortly :lol:

I will go through my video material and if I find anything else, I'll post it for you

Hope that helps

Regards

Alan

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Hi Scott

Would be interested to see some photos of Sunderlands with Turrets turned in. (And it would only be Mk I/II/ and early III until change in turret)

With respect to your comment on the Turret turned, in on Rons photo, I would have to disagree

I found another photo in that 'series' of photos featuring 2*U - p.15 of "AviaDossier #1 -Canadian Aircraft of WW2" by Carl Vincent & published by Aviaeology (http://aviaeology.com) that shows 2*U on a take-off run with the turret turned away from the camera (taken on the port side) but the muzzle of the gun is clearly visible and in this case, there are no portals in the turret access doors (of which the outline is visible). The same publication also has a much larger print of the photo of 2*U landing and it also might clarify things a bit with regard to the same aircraft being photographed during the same period with & without armament, so I'l leave it at that & quote from the accompanying photo description (photo is dated July 15th, 1944 at Castle Archdale):

"...The FNII nose turret appears to have been replaced by a fairing, possibly due to upgrade work in progress. The other turret guns have either been stowed as part of the landing drill, or this was some sort of test hop sans guns. Depending on the landing weight, as the power is backed off and the wing looses lift, up to 3 or 4ft. (1-1.2m) of hull will be below the waterline."

BTW, the two photos I mentioned here are official DND photos: LAC PL40996 and LAC PL40991 respectively.

It's very possible that these photos were taken after the aircraft had been assigned to Number 4 (Coastal)OTU

No mention in the squadron's mini-history (RCAF Squadron's and Aircraft) of any of the squadron's aircraft being assigned anywhere, let alone No.4 OTU. It does mention the various bases the squadron used during the war and that they were assigned to No.15 Grp, Coastal Cmd from 2 Apr '42 to 3 Nov '44 and then moved on to No.19 Grp (Coastal Cmd) 4 Nov '44 to 4 June '45. Castle Archdale, Ferm. was their last base location while attached to 15 Grp. and were there from 13 Apr '44 to 3 nov '44. The squadron operated the Sunderland Mk.III from Nov '42 to Jun '45.

FWIW, that U-boat sinking by WO2 Morton occured on 10 March '44 and it was U-625 with a recorded position of 5235N 2019W. It's further noted that Morton was on his first operational mission at the time and was being screened by F/L S.W. Butler (RAF).

The crew didn't need to turn the turret inward on a Mk I/II/III to remove the single VGO MG, as you can easily access the gun from the opening at the base of the turret

True, the gun was removed first. But the idea of turning the turret was to 'present' something a little bit more solid than perspex, to the water in case of a crash. At least that was the reasoning behind that portion of the landing drill for the Catalina/Canso.

Scott

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