Confused? You will be!

[mrvr6]

That really is poor, even by The Guardian's standards. There is no chance at all they'll go back to the B. I'm sure the MoD's and the Treasury's overwhelming preference would be to cancel, in their entirety, the carriers and the F-35 buy if the politics could be made to fit. A change of government in 2015 would be the best chance of that happening as it's a great way to save lots of money and paint the previous incumbents as feckless idiots.

COUGH TSR 2 COUGH

[Chris g]

I agee with the thread title 'Confused' seems to be the word to describe things at the moment !

Given the recent history of MOD procurement, (points made about BAE Systems noted), how could anyone have thought it would be more expensive to cancel than continue with the build of the carriers ?

Let alone the fact that the ships are being built, with a strategic defence review having taken place, why is there now any uncertainty about which aircraft will be deployed surely this is quite a strategic decision, (Anglo French, American, other European operating capability).

I'm no expert, but I thought that to be effective two carriers are an absolute minimum, one may be over the other side of the world from where it is needed, never mind any time needed for re-fitting etc.

Does the Navy have enough resources to support two carrier groups: Ships (Frigates, Tankers, Submarines); Aircraft (FAW, EAW, AEW, Anti Submarine, SAR); Personnel for all the above?

If this wasn't bad enough we seem to be selling Harriers to the US after they have been refitted.

Who knows what's going on.

[Scarlet]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country operates at higher levels. BAE Systems agreed a price of £3.5 Bn for the two carriers which has now increased to £6.5 Bn with a final price of around £12Bn, how the hell does that work? That's like me telling you that I will fit a shower in your house for £150, but once I start cutting holes in your wall I'll then ask for £350, but I will eventually demand £1000 or I won't connect it up and if you refuse to pay me I'll rip it out and still charge you £1500 for doing so. how long before I feature in Cowboy Builders or have Building standards onto me?.

Best thing to do is tell BAE Systems where to go, cancel the contracts then get 2 CVN's through the US FMS programme and don't give any contracts to BAE until they stop holding the Goverment to ransom on every contract, no wonder British industry is dead.

Spot on.

[jimbuna]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country operates at higher levels. BAE Systems agreed a price of £3.5 Bn for the two carriers which has now increased to £6.5 Bn with a final price of around £12Bn, how the hell does that work? That's like me telling you that I will fit a shower in your house for £150, but once I start cutting holes in your wall I'll then ask for £350, but I will eventually demand £1000 or I won't connect it up and if you refuse to pay me I'll rip it out and still charge you £1500 for doing so. how long before I feature in Cowboy Builders or have Building standards onto me?.

Best thing to do is tell BAE Systems where to go, cancel the contracts then get 2 CVN's through the US FMS programme and don't give any contracts to BAE until they stop holding the Goverment to ransom on every contract, no wonder British industry is dead.

Agreed.

[Julien]

One of the reasons is people like BAe have much better lawyers than the MOD they write in all sorts of clauses etc.

One major factor that costs keep going up is the MOD keep moving the goal posts! first the carriers were ski jump, now they want launch gear and aresstor gear fitting.

I used to work in the drawing office of a ship yard and know how much it costs to change plans.

As an example a programme I worked on had a light switch in certain place in the Captains cabin. They wanted the switch moved. Not a major job you think?

Well you have to change every single drawing which shows that switch, how its made, how the mounts are made, how its wired up, etc etc. Then all those changed drawings need to be sent to Quality assurance to be checked. Then they need to goto the Navy for them to be checked and approved. Then you need to submit an approval schedule, and this has to be approved etc.

It takes a long time and a lot of money. I know this as office apprentice I used to get these wonderful jobs! oh and the estimated cost of moving the captains light switch £150,000 plus and thats in 1980's money.

I dont think there has ever been a MOD project which came in on time and on budget.

Julien

[Julien]

Best thing to do is tell BAE Systems where to go, cancel the contracts then get 2 CVN's through the US FMS programme and don't give any contracts to BAE until they stop holding the Goverment to ransom on every contract, no wonder British industry is dead.

Arh but if you cancel it costs you more than if you had built them. Recently the Nimrod programme and the Canadian EH-101 showed this. Back to my comment on lawyer, they have it all sown up!

Julien

[goose]

our industry has beena joke for some time, some tim ago i worked at a steel constuction company in worcester, they had an extension built..........yes youi guessed it steel bough elswhere fabricated and then delivered to our place to be built, not long after redundancy, its a houseing estate now! odly enough my step son lives there.

This is th uk after all!

if its not broken...... break it then pay lots to fix it!