Albeback52 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Thought this might of interest. You really could not make this up!! http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/01/u...-strike-fighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Informed comment or what? The whole idea of the carriers was they would be capable of operating either type of launch system. Why do they need 'redesigning' if the basic structure was originally designed to cope with both? It is the 'Grauniad' though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Let's see: Defence Spending + Joined-up Thinking ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyBing Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Why do they need 'redesigning' if the basic structure was originally designed to cope with both? Depends what you mean by 'designed to cope with both', as I understand it the designers basically went 'let's leave that space for the catapults and that space for the arrestor gear, and we'll label this big compartment 'catapult machinery' while not knowing what equipment would ultimately be fitted if at all. The problem was, at the time the only option for catapults was steam powered and no one knew how to generate enough steam on a gas turbine powered ship so they had to guess at how much space etc. to leave. Of course at that point we were committed to the VSTOL JSF so it wasn't going to be a problem for years. If the MoD had turned round and said 'we want steam catapults' no one had any idea how to get them working on the QE Class and it would make the current problems look like a minor blip. Now EMALS should be available, the RN is due to get the second set off the production line after the Gerald Ford gets its set, it's a question of trying to fit it into the available space or redesigning the ship's layout. As you may have noticed the ships are already being built which is exactly the most expensive time to start redesigning something. Ultimately the question is, do you want to pony up for the slightly more expensive ship and save money on the aircraft or do you want the cheap ship and then spend a fortune on more limited aircraft with a shorter life. The complication being you have to pay for the ship now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magwitch Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Thought this might of interest. You really could not make this up!!http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/01/u...-strike-fighter That really is poor, even by The Guardian's standards. There is no chance at all they'll go back to the B. I'm sure the MoD's and the Treasury's overwhelming preference would be to cancel, in their entirety, the carriers and the F-35 buy if the politics could be made to fit. A change of government in 2015 would be the best chance of that happening as it's a great way to save lots of money and paint the previous incumbents as feckless idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Britains press is poor. "Cats and Flaps"? FFS! It's "Traps"! Strewth, the comedy factor of landing into a "Flap" (of the cat variety)... No thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatalbert Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 What a farce,it would be cheaper to tool up and build brand new harriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CockneyCol Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Really makes you want to cry, it would be funny if it wasn't our money they are wasting If any of use made such a ball's up at work we would be, rightly, sacked. This is a country in recession....right? Millions unemployed and this sort of rubbish going on....i'm really quite angry! Sorry to the Mod's, I know it's getting political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pte1643 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 The two carriers, originally priced at £3.5bn, are now estimated to cost £6.2bn. According to the Commons public accounts committee, the cost is likely to icrease to as much as £12bn. Obviuosly built by the same construction firm as Wembley Stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbuna Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Obviuosly built by the same construction firm as Wembley Stadium? LOL...they're only carrying on with the build because it was cheaper than cancelling them. I wouldn't be suprised if at least one isn't sold off upon completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pte1643 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I wouldn't be suprised if at least one isn't sold off upon completion. Wouldn't surprise me either. India and Australia are probably rubbing their hands together now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Obviuosly built by the same construction firm as Wembley Stadium? Or the same firm building the Edinburgh tram line!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jumbo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 What we need is a tried, tested and very capable VTOL/STOL aircraft that would cost a fraction of the X-35. Something that is cost effective to meet the expected missions currently facing the RAF and RN. Something like the Harrier...!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buccymad Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) BAE=cash cow,why do we keep employing a company with a proven track record of "cost over runs" would you use a garage who quote you say £150 for four tyres ,only to find out after the job has been done that its going to cost you £600 ? there has got to be a way of propping up british industry without chucking money at one source!! cant we as a country just build something for ourselves without putting all our eggs into one basket? why must we be tied into a solid contract that we cant afford to walk away from? Edited March 4, 2012 by buccy mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocksAway Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first carrier, will be mothballed immediately it is launched in 2016, according to existing plans." Do we know who's got the contract to supply the mothballs? Please don't put it in my back yard, the smell will be atrocious. I'm sure we could find a use for the ship when complete if we did some "blue sky thinking going forward" (as the consultants like to say when they switch their brains off). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidelvy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 why must we be tied into a solid contract that we cant afford to walk away from? I suspect BAe would be mad to enter into a contract that its customer could just walk away from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 BAE=cash cow,why do we keep employing a company with a proven track record of "cost over runs"would you use a garage who quote you say £150 for four tyres ,only to find out after the job has been done that its going to cost you £600 ? there has got to be a way of propping up british industry without chucking money at one source!! cant we as a country just build something for ourselves without putting all our eggs into one basket? why must we be tied into a solid contract that we cant afford to walk away from? Mmm. Name one other British supplier of front-line combat aircraft or large naval vessels ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotthldr Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It never ceases to amaze me how this country operates at higher levels. BAE Systems agreed a price of £3.5 Bn for the two carriers which has now increased to £6.5 Bn with a final price of around £12Bn, how the hell does that work? That's like me telling you that I will fit a shower in your house for £150, but once I start cutting holes in your wall I'll then ask for £350, but I will eventually demand £1000 or I won't connect it up and if you refuse to pay me I'll rip it out and still charge you £1500 for doing so. how long before I feature in Cowboy Builders or have Building standards onto me?. Best thing to do is tell BAE Systems where to go, cancel the contracts then get 2 CVN's through the US FMS programme and don't give any contracts to BAE until they stop holding the Goverment to ransom on every contract, no wonder British industry is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-32 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Now this might be a silly question, but is there any reason we wouldn't want to just licence build a couple of Nimitz class carriers? Surely as a proven design it would be easier, cheaper and quicker to get into service. Obviously there's the whole national pride thing and creating jobs etc but from a purely economic point of view would it not be cheaper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A modern Nimitz carrier costs around $8 Bn. in construction costs only, so in a sense it could be cheaper than the new carriers. A license build however would introduce more costs as the selected shipyard would have to be prepared for the build. However the manpower requirements of a Nimitz would make them very expensive to operate! The ship's company alone of even the more modern CVN-21s is larger than the full crew planned for the CVFs (2500 vs. 1600), this alone would be a big problem. Of course we don't know if the USN would ever allow the sale of a brand new CVN to a foreign country, even a close ally. And a second hand one would never be sold (and would require an even larger crew). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtd350 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'm struggling not to get started about the SDR etc as it affects me directly and I'd probably get a warning from the mods. However I wonder when Airfix are going to get their act together and get a QE Class carrier on the shelves. A nice 1/350 (that'd be huge) or 1/400, probably 1/700 (more likely). Get some White Ensign PE on espesially the 350. Sadly I doubt we'll see this before the real ones are launched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 and don't give any contracts to BAE until they stop holding the Goverment to ransom on every contract, no wonder British industry is dead. That statement does seem to hit the nail on the proverbial head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I wonder when Airfix are going to get their act together and get a QE Class carrier on the shelves. A nice 1/350 (that'd be huge) or 1/400, probably 1/700 (more likely). Get some White Ensign PE on espesially the 350. Sadly I doubt we'll see this before the real ones are launched Why would they do that? We don't even know 1. if it will ever be finished. 2. What the final design will be. 3. What will fly from it, if anything? I wonder when Airfix are going to get their act together and get a QE Class carrier on the shelves. A nice 1/350 (that'd be huge) or 1/400, probably 1/700 (more likely). Get some White Ensign PE on espesially the 350. Sadly I doubt we'll see this before the real ones are launched Why would they do that? We don't even know 1. if it will ever be finished. 2. What the final design will be. 3. What will fly from it, if anything? PS. One can no longer buy Mothballs due to some obscure EU ruling. http://junksciencesidebar.com/2011/08/08/e...aw-that-coming/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtd350 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Why would they do that? We don't even know 1. if it will ever be finished. 2. What the final design will be. 3. What will fly from it, if anything?http://junksciencesidebar.com/2011/08/08/e...aw-that-coming/ Em.................sound a lot like proposed bird for said carrier And was done more tounge in cheek to steer away from the P word Edited March 5, 2012 by mtd350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pte1643 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 is there any reason we wouldn't want to just licence build a couple of Nimitz class carriers? Coz the RN hasn't enough personnel left to staff a couple of CVN's. Name one other British supplier of front-line combat aircraft or large naval vessels ... ? Err... Vickers, Avro, Handley Page... Oh, hang on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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