RAF Two tone green Thunderbolts in Burma?

[Fernando]

IMHO the catch phrase is "... was standard in late 1944". That reveals the author has no clue of the colour (he could have argued that some planes were painted in such and such colours against the regulations, but not that the standard was that) or even of the painting mechanics (standards and regulations)

Fernando

[spitfire]

I don't have Geoff's book open in front of me just now, but I do recall from when I built a SEAC Thunderbolt II a comment that sometimes the protective coating applied to Thunderbolts shipped to India was not completely cleaned off and the paint job applied in India would, as a result, not be good (durable).

There are 2 references to this, the first one is that the aircraft were shipped as deck cargo from New York and the Cosmoline grease applied as a protection was often insuffcient and aircraft were found to have suffered from surface corrosion on arrival, repairs entailed stripping much of the paint but this was no problem as the aircraft were re painted after cleaning and erection.

The second reference was to uncamouflaged aircraft which were coated with Pliofilm, in some cases aircraft received at 320 MU detachment were written off due to corrosion and used as spares, others required extensive cleaning.

Cheers

Dennis

[Spitfires Forever]

IMHO the catch phrase is "... was standard in late 1944". That reveals the author has no clue of the colour (he could have argued that some planes were painted in such and such colours against the regulations, but not that the standard was that) or even of the painting mechanics (standards and regulations)

Fernando

[

I am still perplexed over the many kits, decals and books that show SEAC aircraft in the grey and green day fighter scheme, case in point; squadron's "P-47 in action" publication which clearly shows a grey and green T-Bolt II named Honeysuckle Rose on the back cover. I thought the squadron publications were pretty well researched (regardless an armature like myself have found mistakes) so what is the deal? It is a bit confusing to say the least.

[thx6667]

I am still perplexed over the many kits, decals and books that show SEAC aircraft in the grey and green day fighter scheme, case in point; squadron's "P-47 in action" publication which clearly shows a grey and green T-Bolt II named Honeysuckle Rose on the back cover. I thought the squadron publications were pretty well researched (regardless an armature like myself have found mistakes) so what is the deal? It is a bit confusing to say the least.

Aircam, FROG, Model Aid... Just a few examples where grey/green SEAC t-bolts have been perpetuated and accepted. I'll dig out some of Geoff's correspodence on this matter, put it into the public archive.

Long story short SEAC RAF T bolts almost certainly never wore two tone green in service.

[Dave Fleming]

Back in the early days of Hyperscale, there was someone who claimed to have colour photos showing grey/green RAF Thunderbolts in SEAC, and that they had supplied them to a publisher. AFAIK those alleged photos have never appeared.

Regarding 'localy produced' paints, in his Overseas RAF Fighters book, Paul LUcas stated he had found no evidence of locally produced painst. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

[Seahawk]

Long story short SEAC RAF T bolts almost certainly never wore two tone green in service.

There are cases when one reserves judgment eg the story that a pilot on a British Pacific Fleet resupply carrier repainted his Hellcat with a tin of gloss black paint he'd found to see if it would go any faster: sounds unlikely but he was telling the story and he says he painted the aircrcaft and flew it. There are others when an author, who wasn't there and possibly under pressure from editors and/or publishers, makes a WAG about something he knows little/nothing about and either hasn't time or can't be bothered to find out about. Or maybe simply makes a mistake. As Fernando has pointed out, this author was clearly under a severe misapprehension as to what standard SEAC camouflage was - he was not presenting this as an exception. I don't think we should pollute the wells of historical research with new Internet myths every time an author simply gets it wrong.

I read in a book (Fleet Air Arm by Roderick Dymott, p.8) that HMS Ark Royal was a Courageous-class aircraft carrier. For the record this too is not true. (Doesn't stop me enjoying the book's photos though.)

[gingerbob]

Bear in mind also that the photo captions are sometimes done by an editor, or someone other than the author. It may not be the author's fault, and the caption writer almost certainly isn't as well informed as the author- nor would they take the time to thoroughly acquaint themselves with the information that is right there in front of them in the text.

bob

[Harry Lime]

I am still perplexed over the many kits, decals and books that show SEAC aircraft in the grey and green day fighter scheme, case in point; squadron's "P-47 in action" publication which clearly shows a grey and green T-Bolt II named Honeysuckle Rose on the back cover. I thought the squadron publications were pretty well researched (regardless an armature like myself have found mistakes) so what is the deal? It is a bit confusing to say the least.

No need to be confused! It boils down to poor research being accepted into the public domain and then perpetuated as being right. Whilst there is plenty of information out there regarding USAAF P-47s, the RAF's use of them in a far flung theatre has sort of kept them out of the public eye so to speak. The RAF used them in the same roles(ground attack and fighter escort) as the USAAF and there were some great schemes to pique the modellers interest, so why the lack of interest? Without the level of scrutiny that accompanies research of USAAF subjects, you can see how easy it would be for ill-informed/incorrect/plain wrong/poorly researched information on RAF P-47s to enter and be accepted into the public domain.

It is now generally accepted that SEAC P-47s were finished in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey when they wore camouflage and were left in natural metal finish when the US dispensed with camouflage finishes. However, whilst some airframes were completely repainted in British colours some only had the Sea Grey areas of the US applied finish overpainted.

This means you have a pretty wide range of choices when it comes to finishing your P-47 in RAF colours. You can go for an all over NMF P-47D-30(a Mk.II in RAF parlance) in SEAC colours or the same finish with type C/C1 roundels/fin flashes serving with 73 OTU in Egypt. Or you can go for a P-47D-21/D-22(a Mk.I aka Razorbacks) in a SEAC Dark Earth/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey scheme or US applied Olive Drab ANA 613(=RAF Dark Green)/Sea Gray ANA 603(=RAF Ocean Grey)/Light Gray ANA 602(=RAF MSG) also serving at 73 OTU. And finally you could also go for a camouflaged P-47D-25/D-27(also Mk.II aka Bubbletop) in either the US applied finish at 73 OTU or in the repainted SEAC scheme serving in Burma.

On top of the colour conundrums, you also have the various different prop types used across the P-47 Marks and the airframe/cockpit differences between the various production blocks. But they are a different matter...

Hope this helps a little,

Mark.

[thx6667]

It boils down to poor research being accepted into the public domain and then perpetuated as being right.

And on that note, here is some good research for the public domain:

[spitfire]

Thanks for that, makes it pretty clear.

Cheers

Dennis

[Spitfires Forever]

Bear in mind also that the photo captions are sometimes done by an editor, or someone other than the author. It may not be the author's fault, and the caption writer almost certainly isn't as well informed as the author- nor would they take the time to thoroughly acquaint themselves with the information that is right there in front of them in the text.

bob

Excellent point. much of the old Ballentine series was edited by individuals who previously edited what we call in the states "Coffee table books" and other such publications. going through my personal collection I have found numerous problems with photo captions. I still enjoy the books but when it comes to most movies I have to bite my lip to keep from announcing that "they didn't fly that mark of P-40 at that time and not in that color scheme for that particular unit" I some how manage to restrain myself until the drive home when my son and I discuss the numerous discrepancies. The further we get away from an event the less we learn as time goes on.

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks for that, makes it pretty clear.

Cheers

Dennis

I too am most appreciative for all the great input, I most certainly would not go to another modeling website before consulting you fine gentlemen when it comes to British aircraft, and American as well. Thanks again. This prevented me from using the wrong colors on the P-47 I am about to paint. Just when you think it is safe to go out a new boogeyman comes around to produce doubt and fear, as a manner of speaking. I must admit that a SEAC aircraft in grey and green would look nice. not to stir the pot but does this mean that the Aussie Spit Mk VIII's were also all brown and green and not grey and green? Perhaps another time, nes pas?

[tonyot]

There are cases when one reserves judgment eg the story that a pilot on a British Pacific Fleet resupply carrier repainted his Hellcat with a tin of gloss black paint he'd found to see if it would go any faster: sounds unlikely but he was telling the story and he says he painted the aircrcaft and flew it.

Thats true actually and it features in a relatively well known photo (showing it overflying its home carrier in company with some other Hellcats in sun bleached camouflage colours) and even an Aeromaster decal sheet! Its quite distinctive as the serial and Royal Navy titles are repeated on the tail fin whilst the only other markings are large BPF roundels!

Cheers

Tony O

[Giorgio N]

not to stir the pot but does this mean that the Aussie Spit Mk VIII's were also all brown and green and not grey and green? Perhaps another time, nes pas?

I suggest you start a new thread on this, as it's a large subject in itself, however for a starter I can say that the Australian spitifire VIIIs were both brown/green and grey/green. The former were not painted in the RAF colours though but used australian paints (at least for the green). The latter were in the standard RAF colours of ocean grey and dark green over medium sea grey. This scheme was used on later delivery aircrafts, for example the well know "grey nurses" with the sharkmouth carried this scheme.

There were RAF aircrafts in the SEA theatre in grey/green. For example several spitfire XIV carried this scheme with SEA markings (and even the sky tail band). If you see a SEAC Spitfire XIV with black serial number, it's in grey/green, if it has white serial numbers it has been repainted in brown/green.

I'm not sure however any of these saw any action in the theatre, as they arrived when the war was practically over

Edited February 10, 2012 by Giorgio N

[Test Graham]

Aussie Spitfires are quite another matter, and appeared in a number of colour schemes including Dark Green/Dark Earth (and/or their Australian counterparts), Dark Green/Ocean Grey, and Middle Stone/Dark Earth. Sadly, I believe that the overall black-green and the two-tone green schemes have been discounted by more recent evidence.

[occa]

Aussie Spitfires are quite another matter, and appeared in a number of colour schemes including Dark Green/Dark Earth (and/or their Australian counterparts), Dark Green/Ocean Grey, and Middle Stone/Dark Earth. Sadly, I believe that the overall black-green and the two-tone green schemes have been discounted by more recent evidence.

My take on the two tone green is that it resulted from over painting the OG or the DE with Foliage Green and leaving the DG as it was.

But this is just a theory ...

Edited February 10, 2012 by occa

[Test Graham]

But the Aussie Spitfires were never in OD..... the one I'm thinking of has a much lighter second green, whether the darker one was DG or Foliage Green I really couldn't say, but the contrast was excessive for a combination of the two. I did model it and it looked very nice too, or so I thought at the time, but that's the way it goes. I've read a theory that it was through rubbing down and washing that the Ocean Grey became tinted with pigment from the Dark Green, but that seems a bit doubtful to me, or else we'd have seen a lot more like that. Please note, I am not suggesting that this is the latest thinking amongst those who have studied the subject rather more closely! Something for the Aussie modelling sites, if anyone wants to take it further.

[Giorgio N]

There have been two types of 2-green camo proposed on the australian spit VIII: one is the scheme Graham refers to, that would have seen dark green or foliage green together with a lighter green. The only "evidence" were a few pictures showing an unusual contrast and some airman's stories of a lighter green having been mixed and used. Research has shown this scheme never existed and that these aircrafts were actually in dark green/ocean grey, where the ocean grey had faded.

The second is the scheme Occa refers to that would have been the result of the ocean grey having been repainted in australian foliage green, with the result of a very low contrast 2-green scheme. Not sure what the status of research on this is, but I believe the scheme did not exist and that the aircrafts showing a low contrast scheme are in foliage green and earth brown.

We should keep in mind that no Spitfire VIII was delivered in green/brown from the factory: this version left the factory in either the desert scheme of dark earth and mid stone or in the DFS of dark green and ocean grey. The SEAC aircrafts were repainted in India. the Australian planes were either repainted in Australia (with Australian paints) or left in DFS... or stripped of paint and left in natural metal. Some probably also served (at least initially) in the desert scheme.

I'm sure some of our Australian friends will soon add better info than the one I have given

Edited February 10, 2012 by Giorgio N

[Mark Mackenzie]

Giorgio N said:

There have been two types of 2-green camo proposed on the australian spit VIII: one is the scheme Graham refers to, that would have seen dark green or foliage green together with a lighter green. The only "evidence" were a few pictures showing an unusual contrast and some airman's stories of a lighter green having been mixed and used. Research has shown this scheme never existed and that these aircrafts were actually in dark green/ocean grey, where the ocean grey had faded.

The second is the scheme Occa refers to that would have been the result of the ocean grey having been repainted in australian foliage green, with the result of a very low contrast 2-green scheme. Not sure what the status of research on this is, but I believe the scheme did not exist and that the aircrafts showing a low contrast scheme are in foliage green and earth brown.

We should keep in mind that no Spitfire VIII was delivered in green/brown from the factory: this version left the factory in either the desert scheme of dark earth and mid stone or in the DFS of dark green and ocean grey. The SEAC aircrafts were repainted in India. the Australian planes were either repainted in Australia (with Australian paints) or left in DFS... or stripped of paint and left in natural metal. Some probably also served (at least initially) in the desert scheme.

I'm sure some of our Australian friends will soon add better info than the one I have given

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Harry Lime]

Thanks again. This prevented me from using the wrong colors on the P-47 I am about to paint. Just when you think it is safe to go out a new boogeyman comes around to produce doubt and fear, as a manner of speaking. I must admit that a SEAC aircraft in grey and green would look nice.

Just out of interest, what particular Thunderbolt are you doing at the moment? I've just finished spraying the green stripes on my Tamiya Mk.I, hope to have it decalled over the weekend and up in RFI early next week.

Mark.

[Spitfires Forever]

I believe that I read somewhere that Aussie Spits were painted appropriate to the particular areas they operated in. Perhaps North Eastern Austrailia called for the brown and green, whereas aircraft that flew in other areas of operation used the green and grey? Usually it wat the DFS but certain areas were pre-disposed to the brown and green schemes, thusly aircraft were painted in those colors. If I recall CR Caldwell flew Mk VIII's in both schemes. Additionally it seems that the U.S. dark green is the most similar to the Austrailian color/ foliage green. It definitely seems to have a bluer tint than the RAF dark green. Tje Beaufighter they restored is in foliage green and it looks quite similar to Tje U.S. color. Any thoughts?

[Test Graham]

It was certainly suggested that Foliage Green was created after the Australians received US aircraft painted in US Medium Green (not US Dark Green), although it is also presented (by some) as being very dark which would bring the US Dark Green to mind. Restorations (not the Beaufighter) have been complicated by people using the 1990s US Medium Green, which is very different and a lighter, rather sickly colour! For the latest evidence/beliefs, I'd ask on the Aussie sites.

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks Graham. I suppose that is another "sticky wicket" as it were. Some times we just have to throw caution to the wind and go with our best guess, it is just that we can't appreciate the model we built and spent so much time on quite as much when we made a "dogs breakfast" ( to coin my Blackpuddlian dad) of the paint job. any suggestions on Austrailian sites would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[Test Graham]

http://aussiemodeller.com/

There is a dedicated Aussie Spitfire site, but it became a pay site and I didn't keep tabs on it. A quick google gave me

http://www.pacificspitfires.com/join.htm

which appears to be it.

[Vanroon]

My take on the two tone green is that it resulted from over painting the OG or the DE with Foliage Green and leaving the DG as it was.

But this is just a theory ...

Occa, not Spitfires, but when they made the MB326 overall grey, even with the rub-down and prep the disruptive showed through. Just saying.

When Spitfires were delivered, things were tight. The Mk.VCTs came from a number of batches. If the northern dry season was on, desert camouflage was left intact until first major service or 'wet' season, whichever came first. The light colour was overpainted with foliage green. Temperate schemes were left intact until major service. Ocean Grey wasn't very durable and 'chalked' badly. It was generally replaced with earth brown.

In the build-up to the invasion of Japan, aircraft were being prepared for ground concealment to foil 5th columnists. Hence the overall foliage green scheme which is often explained away with vague expression of perception of pattern being visible. Sure, one may perceive the old demarcations, but what of the colour?

Anyway, the RAAF didn't fly Thunderbolts under their administrative region. However the Indian colours were apparently very similar to Australian colours.

G